Tuesday, December 27, 2011

How many people like this are out there?

From a forum at Top Law Schools.com (btw the forums on that site provide a fascinating glimpse into the world of current 0Ls):

I took the LSAT 3 times. I had taken it cold (stupid, I know) (143) and then studied really hard for a year. I would test at 154-157 consistently but on actual test day I would just freak out..I could swear the girl next to me heard my heart beat each time I tested.

I scored a 149 the next time and then cancelled for the last. I graduated at a legal studies major with a 3.57 from a private college (93 credits) but 5 years prior attended a community college (27 credits) and did terrible. LSAC configured my GPA at a 3.04. I have also been a legal assistant at a real-estate attorney’s office for two years making 35k a year and trying to pay off undergrad and cc debt.

Now I have applications pending for the NY area and being 25 years old, I feel pretty defeated. I understand that going to a 3rd or 4th tier school will bring a lot of debt and not so many job opportunities. I want to be an attorney so bad and would love to practice criminal law in NY.

The next LSAT I could take would be February 2013 and since it is so late in the cycle, if I decided to wait..it could mean waiting 2 cycles. I know that I scored well below my potential and I would be open to studying differently and doing whatever I needed to do to raise my score but waiting two cycles..

My question is..Should I try and just get in for this fall or study and try again for a hopeful scholarship? Is it possible for me to raise my score enough after taking all prior tests? I am so torn.
 The OP gets some decent feedback, i.e, he's told to rethink his career plans, to which he responds:

I know this is not an easy profession by any means. I know that receiving a law degree does not automatically lead to a life of fulfillment and financial stability...I understand this. After reading so much about how bad this profession is over the last few months, I wish I was one of these people that was unsure about wanting to go to law school and could just abandon the idea, but I cannot.

I have wanted this for the longest time and completed my undergrad knowing it was just a prerequisite to enter law school. I interned in college at a few law firms and have been a legal assistant for two years; I have just always wanted to be an attorney.

It was not for a lack of studying that left me with such a disgusting score. I obviously need to think about things and if I were to wait, study very differently. I will do what I need to do to accomplish my goals. 
The law school administrator types who burble about how federal loan money provides "access" to people who otherwise couldn't afford to go to law school for what they're charging are talking about somebody like this times several thousand, every year.

What are you gonna do, as Tony Soprano used to say with a depressive shrug. The strong temptation is to say just that, and abandon what Ayn Rand or John Chipman Gray or G. C. Montgomery Burns would no doubt call the futile struggle to save humankind from its inherent recklessness.  (This is especially tempting when the struggle to save humankind from its inherent recklessness would, if successful, interfere with one's paycheck.  See, e.g., Upton Sinclair).

171 comments:

  1. This fellow should obviously NOT go to LS.

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  2. It would be interesting to delve into the person's mind to learn how much the employment stats affect his decision.

    Is he going because, based on the employment stats, even the bad students in law school wind up with decent ($40k to $50k) entry level jobs?

    Or does he know that more than half of the students (probably 3/4 of them) at the TTT that will take him will not be working in legal jobs?

    Once you get that information, it would be nice to have him explain in detail his reasoning behind law school.

    We have a specimen here people, let's not waste this opportunity to dissect him!

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  3. The problem with this person is that they have only witnessed lawyers who have "made it," e.g. are working at a firm, have business, etc. Regardless of where the lawyers went to school at this kid's firm, they probably graduated many years ago and have a decent book of business. This person needs to talk to somebody who has recently graduated from a top school and who is out of work.

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  4. 11:57, Can someone who posts on TLS invite him here for an interview to figure out what's going on in his mind? We often speculate about what 0Ls are thinking, assuming they were thinking what we thought (I looked at the stats and expected a job) but that might not be the case. Let's explore this person like we're the CIA and he's an alien whose flying saucer just crashed in the Nevada desert.

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  5. "G. Montgomery Burns" -- s/b C. Montgomery
    Burns.

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  6. I don't understand why he feels defeated. I mean, if I wanted to be an astronaut, and I got a job making decent--not great, but okay--money at NASA instead, I might not be ecstatic but I'd be cool with it.

    He's already involved in a legal enterprise, doing according to his ability. Why is there shame in that?

    Maybe someone should explain that if he goes to law school, especially given that he seems like a bit of a thickie*, he might wind up not even being able to make the same contributions--to his employer, to "justice" or whatever, to his own future--that he is right now, at this very moment. Sometimes dreams should die. It's sad, but it's okay.

    *Based solely off his shitty LSAT. Personally, I don't hold much faith in the LSAT as an indicator of intelligence. I did a bit better than fine on the LSAT (not outrageously well, but a damn sight better than this dude, and better than almost all of the folks I matriculated with). But I performed at a rather mediocre level in actual law school, particularly 1L year. Our fellow here could easily be quite the reverse. Of course, he'd still come out job disabled, as others have noted, but three years of feeling like you're smart might be worth something?

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  7. I would like to know what the basis for his "really wanting to be a lawyer" is. I would have said the same thing when I was in college - I really wanted to be a lawyer because I found law really interesting as an academic discipline, and I wanted to make a contribution to society via public interest law. Unfortunately, even though I am now pretty-to-really good at practicing law, I'm still stuck in a position that is currently sucking my soul out of my body, bit by tiny bit, and practicing in an area of law that I frankly hate. I continue because I need to make the payments on my massive student loan debt, and true public interest positions don't pay anywhere near enough for me to do that (assuming I could even get one right now). I had no idea when I set out on this path that the vast majority of legal jobs are mind-numbingly awful, stressful, and torturous. It seems like this guy doesn't know that either, he's just set on the "goal" of getting into law school, despite all the negative signals that the universe is generously giving him. I say this as someone who crushed the LSAT, graduated from a top-14 school (middle of my class, but still had oodles of interviews coming out), and has been working without interruption since I graduated (10 years). So I'm a "success story."

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  8. That kid is like this girl pursuing a naive dream, except she paid far less and had a lot more fun.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AelpbAegA-4

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  9. The biggest problem with this person is that some person with a 160 LSAT and a Loyola/Brooklyn/NYLS admissions is going to think, "I guess he's the type of person who can't get a decent job out of law school. I'm so happy that I'm not in his shoes. Things are so much better for me, because I broke 160 and got into a solid law school."

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  10. To the first commenters - He's on the internet receiving feedback in a forum. Add to that that he stated that he he has done research about how shitty it is to be an attorney now. He's aware of all the numbers, he's the classic "I will win the lottery ticket" because "I want it so bad I can taste it" kind of guy. He doesn't care what the numbers are. This is the person the lower tiers feed off of and why loan reform is so much more important than transparency. Why should places like Cooley get subsidized but the federal govt at the expense of someone like this?

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  11. That's what I'm curious about 1:28. I'd like to really question him (take a deposition) so I can break down, in detail, his reasoning. Not to criticize it, but just to understand it. I'd like to ask him, OK what if this, of what if that?

    You know, maybe he has connections via family or whatever, that will get him a job.

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  12. Can someone go into that thread and tell him about Cooley? I'm pretty sure his 140 LSAT is more than enough for them. See what he says.

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  13. When did he say he would go to a low ranked law school? Maybe we're not giving him enough credit.

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  14. Your “specimen” has arrived.

    I have wanted to be an attorney for a while now. I want to be a criminal defense attorney and no, my aspirations to be an attorney do not stem from Law & Order. I fell in love with a criminal procedure class in college along with a legal studies and writing class. Researching statutory law and case law was exciting to me. I was given fact patterns and spent the rest of the day searching cases to help support and even negate the position in which I was arguing.

    I worked really hard and had taken a number classes like constitutional law, the art of legal reasoning, criminal procedure etc. I interned at a few places while taking 21 and 24 credits my last two semesters of under grad and both semesters I had a GPA of a 3.7. It was the first time in my life that I felt like I knew what I wanted to do.

    I had a lot on my plate when I was studying for the LSAT. I was rear ended by a drunk driver and was out of work for one year attending PT 3-4 times a week, finishing school, seeing multiple physicians and having procedures on my back and neck such as epidurals and neck injections. Yes, there are plenty of people out there who have had other things going on at the time and for many reasons, just did not do well on their LSAT. I don’t feel like I should abandon my dreams because I am having problems performing well on this test.

    So what score would I need to be treated like an equal on forums such as toplawschools.com? If I get a 163 then I am ok? No, there will be people saying tier 2 is garbage…If I get a 170 + then I have everyone’s blessing? I wish I could have scored high on my LSAT and I am sure if I can give it more time and more attention (now that I have overcome some obstacles), I could score much higher.

    Why do some of you find it so appalling that someone with my numbers wants to get a license to practice law? There are reasons why some people do better on this test than others and sometimes it is because they had the means to do so. I did not have a lot of money to get private tutored or take really good classes...I had trouble with anxiety and I had a lot going on.

    I feel defeated because I have both my heart and mind set on attending law school and it’s disheartening to listen to a bunch of people who scored high on the LSAT tell me that I should not attend law school and to read posts that basically say, hey buddy you’re a legal assistant be happy with that and then make an analogy about becoming an astronaut. If you’re ok with getting a job at NASA bringing the garbage out making decent money when you wanted to become an astronaut, then good for you, but that is not me. I don’t believe my dream has to die.

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  15. What are your numbers again? 3.2 / 150? Couldn't you get into a bunch of NYC law schools with those numbers?

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  16. In some ways I was this guy, back when applying to school's in 2006 and 2007. I took the LSAT 3 times over two admissions cycles (144, 149, and 153) being rejected by every school in '06 and accepted by 7 of the 22 school's I applied to in '07. I have always found law academically interesting (even now.) I actually don't recall even looking at the employment stats of the school I chose to attend. Though, unlike most grads, the debt burden was not a huge consideration as only 1/4th the cost came from my pocket (due to the school I chose.) I would say to this guy that he should just go for it, that you only live once. I would rather be an unemployed lawyer than fill my life with jobs that are even less interesting.

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  17. I think a 3.2/150 will qualify you for Hofstra, St Johns, Touro, Pace and other local schools.

    Even out of bad schools, a small percentage wind up getting jobs as attorneys. With your interest, attitude and experience you're almost certain to be one of those people.

    I say you attend whatever school you can get into, attend at night and then join your boss's practice when you graduate.

    The difference between you and the average TTT loser is that they are not as motivated and they don't have the connections or experience required to get a job.

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  18. 1:48,

    Are you aware that while 4% of the general population and 4% of 0Ls are depressed, 40% of 3Ls are depressed and 18% of law school graduates are depressed even two years after graduating? I can provide you the links to the studies if you want.

    If you had a 40% chance of getting a serious physical illness via having sex with a girl, would you still do it? If not, then why would you take such a needless risk with a debilitating and terrible mental illness?

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  19. I have a 149 3.04. Im still upset that LSAC configured my GPA to that. I worked really hard to bring my grades up from community college when I was 18..a 3.57 for 3 years just did not seem to do me justice. If I had known how they had done this and I could go back in time..I would have taken the easiest major and got a 4.0, I mean really..

    I did apply to those NY schools and I have not received word from any except Paces for the accelerated program. They said they would defer my application to the fall cycle after they see how their applicant pool looks..ouch

    -John1986

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  20. Thanks to those of you with kind words.

    -John1986

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  21. You'll get into Pace and probably a bunch of other law schools. Law school here you come!

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  22. Maybe I missed this. Do you have $150,000 laying around somewhere for tuition? If so, by all means, follow your dream.

    Also, in re:
    With your interest, attitude and experience you're almost certain to be one of those people.

    Isn't that what they said to Pickett's men right before the charge?

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  23. I am leaving work now, I have to go work out but I will be back on to answer any questions anyone has.

    -John1986

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  24. terry, he's already working in a law office and so has a job waiting for him upon graduation.

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  25. John,
    What are you going to do with all the huge lawyer money and prestige you will get in 3 years? PLEASE make sure you don't settle down with a girl right now because your options will improve exponentially once you graduate and have the JD by your name. You'll probably be working on 100 million dollar real estate deals in ten years. I so wish I was you right now brah.

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  26. I don't blame this person for thinking like this. If you research law school, you will find statistics showing great outcomes and also a lot of blogs critical of law schools and their statistics. Law schools, if confronted with the criticism, will offer the same argument they always do: some graduates feel entitled to 160k law firm jobs and are bitter that they don't get them. The prospective law student will then say, well I like the law and would be happy as a lawyer even if I make a low salary. The prospective lawyer has no idea that after completing their education they have no realistic chance at ever working as any type of attorney or in the field of law at all.

    The law schools not only have statistics but a coherent, reasonable explanation as to why they are criticized and why someone should attend even if their salary data is cooked. The message people aren't getting is law school does not offer a good chance at employment period. Even if your dream is to be a public defender or whatever, successful completion of law school, even by a student with excellent grades, is unlikely to lead to that result, just like buying a lottery ticket is unlikely to lead to someone becoming rich.

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  27. 2:38, What the hell are you talking about? Where in any of his posts did John say he was in any way relying on statistics? Misleading statistics are a problem when relied upon, but that situation does not exist here.

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  28. Well, if he has a job assured, that's sort of a different story.

    "If I get a 163 then I am ok?"

    No. I mean, maybe. No one here is Karnak. I had a 164*, and had a poor outcome. There's no reason to believe you would by necessity, but there's no reason to believe you would have the opposite, either. And with so much money--including your opportunity cost--on the line, I feel, and I feel from experience, that it may be better to err on the side of caution.

    I understand that you feel like I attacked you, and I guess I kinda did, but that wasn't my intent. I certainly am not "appalled" that you might want to be a lawyer. As I mentioned in my note at the end, I don't think a bad LSAT score in any way reflects ability, other than ability to score well on a dumb test. I also want to hasten to add that I don't think I'm smarter or better than you. By any metric that matters--which is to say salary, employment, and the good you likely do--you are far smarter and better than me. I can probably make a salad faster than you, though. I'm doing pretty well at my new job.

    My point was merely that you shouldn't consider a job as a legal assistant a defeat simply because it doesn't satisfy your greatest ambitions.

    In fact, if you do go to law school, can I have your old job?

    @2:01. "If you had a 40% chance of getting a serious physical illness via having sex with a girl, would you still do it? " This can still be pretty fun if you get creative.

    *I don't even know whether this is good anymore. Like I said earlier, it's better than most of my former classmates, it's evidently about average at a T1 school, excluding the T14, but I think the aftereffect of law school that's gonna have the longest half-life for me is the presumption that my own performance sets an absolute floor on what can possibly be considered "good." Or even "adequate."

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  29. terry, he's already working in a law office and so has a job waiting for him upon graduation.

    I don't understand. Are they going to give him the tuition money? Or do they have such a baller salary that $130,000-150,000 in tuition and expenses will be paid off after the first bonus?

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  30. I think teh 164 vs. 150 debate is due to the public GREATLY overestimating the value of a 50ish ranked school vs. the value of a 125th ranked school. Their placement isn't really that different.

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  31. What kind of idiot thinks a loan must be paid off within one year to be a worthwhile investment?

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  32. DO NOT DO THIS!!!!! WARNING, DO NOT DO THIS!!!! PLEASE, DO NOT DO THIS!!!!

    You sound just like me 10 years ago. I cracked a 160 on the LSAT, got my offer from Brooklyn Law School (a solid tier 2), and I thought I was on my way. I naively assumed that since I wasn't interested in biglaw that the whole T14 thing didn't apply to me. Boy, was I wrong! After taking every criminal law/procedure class I could get my hands on, partaking in several internships and judicial criminal law externships, I could not find a job. I literally applied to HUNDREDS of jobs all around the country, NOTHING! I even remember coloring in a map of New York State with crayola crayons listing applications sent to every DA/public defender office. The only criminal law "job" I could get was a free post-bar admission internship in the Brooklyn DA's office. They would hire a few unemployed newly admitted lawyers, make them do grunt work for a few months with no pay, and then spit them out and hire new ones. Since I had to feed myself and pay rent, I could not work for free and had to string together a miserable life working retail and bartending. My loans were in forebearance for all those years and I now owe 20% more than what I originally owed. After finally getting an offer as a paralegal in a real estate foreclosure firm, I count my blessings, but if it wasn't for my family, hobbies, and anti-depressant medication, I would have put a shotgun in my mouth A LONG TIME AGO.

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  33. 2:48, He ALREADY WORKS in a law office and will continue to do so while going to school at night. Thus your situation is a highly unlikely scenario.

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  34. Yes, but you currently have a job as a legal assistant in a real estate office. A job as a licensed attorney practicing criminal law is quite different.

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  35. How is it different? Law is law.

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  36. @3:01 yes, law is law, much the way a nurse at a dermatologist's office and an orthopaedic surgeon are both involved in medicine.

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  37. John1986 - only go to school if it isn't that expensive and if you really do have a job waiting for you. Go to a school part time while working and try to go to a school with in-state tuition. You need to do the umber crunching to figure out what the maximum you should pay (lawprof has some posts on this).

    And again, this is why it is so imperative that federal loans are reformed. Why should't this guy go to law school? Because he did badly in a few courses and couldn't hack the LSAT, not exactly a great prognosticator of anything except being able to take the LSAT. Subsidized federal loans with sky high ceilings are the only reason tuition is what it is....we are paying cartel prices for knock-off merchandise. Oh but hank god we get to subsidize the lives of law school admins and profs...vital to the economy.

    Student loan reform should have been done yesterday.

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  39. 2:48: I wish more prospective law students would listen to people such as yourself. Especially now, when getting a job as a DA or a PD is often much *more* difficult than getting a BigLaw associate slot. Many public interest/government employers couldn't care less what school you went to or how well you did there -- they're not going to hire anyone who doesn't already have significant experience at the job they're now filling, even if it's technically an "entry level" position, because there are scads of experienced attorneys looking for precisely these kinds of jobs.

    The notion that the current employment crisis is limited to people who are looking for big money entry level jobs is if anything the opposite of the truth.

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  42. "SUBSIDIZED WITH NON-DISCHARGEABLE LOANS"

    He thinks that the law school scam movement can get his loans discharged in bankruptcy. rofl.

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  48. Yeah, listen to everyone here including lawprof and leave. You obviously can't deal with a different (logical) pov without resorting to insults and badgering.

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  49. John 1986, I feel for you. I don't think you're the worst example of the "lemming" 0L, beacause you do have some experience with the legal profession, and haven't run screaming. If I had the power to dissuade anyone from attending law school I'd go for the kids signing up because they just don't know what to do with themselves before the ones with low LSAT scores. At least you have some basis to believe that you actually enjoy legal work.

    But that said, there are some things to consider. New York is the most saturated legal market in the country, according to the NYT business section. Everyone wants to practice in New York City, which is probably why it's home to so many law schools. If you do get the JD, you may well be forced to choose between remaining in the city and continuing in your chosen profession (if you're lucky enough to have the option of legal work).

    Then there's the debt to consider. With your numbers and particularly your LSAT, you're looking at 4th tier, if you're even admitted. Now, I have nothing against 4th tier schools - I went to one. As did many of my closest friends. But I've seen the employment prospects up close and they're not pretty. A *handful* - seriously, 5 or fewer - of students get really good outcomes: 160K firm jobs or state supreme court clerkships. A larger but still far from overwhelming number get jobs that would be just fine if not for their massive debt loads. And then you have what seems like the majority of my graduating class, who are working as clerks or paralegals or not working at all. Personally, I did find a job - one that requires a law degree even - and I actually love it, but it pays less than what you're earning now, as a paralegal. Luckily for me, I got a full scholarship. If I had six-figure student loan debt with my current salary, I don't know what I'd do. Probably cry a lot. As it was, I almost did cry - from happiness - when I got my job, even knowing what it paid. The job search was that demoralizing.

    Now, if you're planning to hang your own shingle it may not matter where you go to law school - but it will definitely matter how much you pay for it. Do you have the option of moving back in with your parents, going to law school at night while working and putting every penny you earn into tuition? Do you want to be a lawyer *that* much?

    Also, while I don't believe that the LSAT is the be all and end all, it does tend to be predictive of two other important things: grades and bar passage rates. Your numbers would put you in the bottom quartile of my 4th tier school. Those were the kids who *tended to* either flunk out after 1L or, worse, not pass the bar. Not always, there are exceptions. I don't believe it's a matter of overall intelligence so much as a particular, narrow kind of intelligence + test-taking skills. But the LSAT only the first of many high stakes tests in your legal career.

    I would wait another year, see if you can get back into the 154-57 range. See what steps you can take to minimize your debt. If this is really what you want more than anything else, I sincerely wish you the best of luck.

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  53. I agree that it is not practical to knock off federally subsidized loans; but IBR is like merde to a bunch of flies!! The logic for recent law grads is as follows: "I am still young and it doesn't matter how much debt I incur; I can still make some money and enjoy my twenties and thirties." At least, this is the logic I would hear while working for a short time in doc review in NYC. IBR was like manna from the sky for the kids. I hate to be a party pooper to the young grads, but IBR is a fraud upon the taxpayer, subsidizing extra and unnecessary lawyers.

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  54. I don't think IBR is a law school thing. Does anyone know the portion of all loans that are from law school?

    And so what if it's a subsidy for youth? Everyone else gets so much more from the government. Why can't they get a little?

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  55. Reform does not mean ending federal loans. It means reform so that the end result isn't skyrocketing tuition. How many times does this need to be pointed out?

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  56. DO NOT GET RID OF IBR!!! It's the solution to the entire problem. In 5-10 years the federal government will have enough data, via IBR, to decide what to do about the higher education bubble.

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  57. lol...its not a subsidy to youth, unless you call a lifetime of debt a subsidy. Its a subsidy to people who work for universities.

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  58. Im back guys

    As I just wrote in toplawschool...

    To clarify things.. I do not have a job lined up once I get out of LS. I do work as a legal assistant in a real-estate attorney's office but no one has offered me a job. I would have to quit my job to attend law school. I know it is easy to throw me in the pool of every other sub 150 LSAT tester (149) and tell me to find another career. I really want to be an attorney, I really do. I wish I could have scored like a lot of you did and I admire all of you that have done well on the LSAT.
    I wish I could be in this forum talking about my acceptances to schools like NYU, but I can't. I don't think I am a troll, I am just confused and I just know that I have wanted and still want to practice law in NY. I understand it is a gamble and it is not like I wanted to be in this position.
    My past has caught up with me in regards to my overall GPA. I did not know what I wanted to be when I was 18 and attended community college and basically never went. I transferred 27 credits after taking two years off to find myself. When I returned to college I did work really hard and graduated with a 3.57 (taking 93 credits). I know to many people that is not a big deal but to me it was.
    I admit I wish I had done things differently and if I could turn around and take the LSAT soon..I would and there would not be this discussion. I do not fit the "mold" for a law school applicant who went to a prestigous school, studied hard and tested at a 160 the first time they opened a LSAT test. Like I said earlier, I wish I was, I wish I could be like a lot of you but right now, I cannot.
    I do know that I want to be an attorney and I am willing to work very hard to accomplish that goal. I don't want to settle, I would love to go to a great school..I suppose I just have to figure things out..


    I do not feel like my LSAT score should be a death sentence in regards to LS. I am willing to sit out a cycle and study for the test I am eligible to take in Feb 2013..I am just confused..I am 25 now and I really want to get the ball rolling..I just do not know.

    I appreciate a lot of the feedback in this discussion. It really means a lot to me to see that people atleast somewhat understand what I am going through.

    ***Stats was not an answer I gave to why I want to be an attorney. I never said that it was the stats law schools gave out that made me want to be an attorney. I posted earlier stating the reasons.

    -John1986

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  60. 3:55, You don't think IBR is a subsidy to youth?

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  62. If this guy is freaking out when he takes the LSAT just imagine how much he would freak during law school exams or the bar exam....Just don't go!

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  63. "I do not have a job lined up once I get out of LS. I do work as a legal assistant in a real-estate attorney's office but no one has offered me a job. I would have to quit my job to attend law school."

    Wow. If you quit your job for law school, you're fucked.

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  64. 3:59, You need help.

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  65. John1986- You are making a huge financial mistake. Do you have any idea how much debt you will be in after three years? because that is the only thing you need to figure out before anything else.

    And you do understand that law schools lie about their employment numbers?

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  67. I agree with 4:02, now that it's been revealed that you will be quitting your $35k job, and that you will have no guaranty of even getting that legal assistant job back after you graduate from Touro, then you are making a MONUMENTAL MISTAKE by going to law school. There is just no way it makes sense.

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  69. I am strongly thinking about waiting a cycle and retaking Feb 2013. I am not trying to put myself in debt, I just want to pursue my dreams thats all.

    I would consider a part-time program so I could still work..I am willing to compromise certain things..just not the WHOLE thing.

    Yes, I do know that law school numbers in regards to employment stats are not true indicators..It really is not about that..

    Thanks

    -John 1986

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  70. John 1986 - seriously, have you explored how much debt you will end up with or not? Are you aware that law schools lie about their placement stats?

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  71. John, statistically speaking, what do you think your odds are of getting a full time job as a criminal lawyer after graduation? You haven't mentioned the issue of fraudulent job placement stats, but you must have some image in your mind. What is it?

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  72. I am aware. I am not saying I am going to jump right into school. I did apply to several schools, but I am strongly thinking about studying for a year and retaking.
    That's basically why I started this threat in TLS, I wanted some feedback on whether I should settle for a T4 or possible T3 or retest.

    -John 1986

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  73. John, can you give us a number? 10% chance? 25% chance? 50% chance? 75% chance? 90% chance? In your mind you must have imagined some likelihood of getting the result you want. What is it?

    I really need you to do that mental exercise.

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  75. Hey what about me?

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  77. John, Ignore the nuts. This is the internet afterall. But I would like to know what you estimate your probability of success to be.

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  79. Can you and transparency boy please stfu?

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  82. Success in regards to retaking the LSAT? or in LS in general? or..?

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  83. So follow the logic here...John 1986 really wants to go to law school and doesn't really care about the consequences. Kind of knows he'll be in serious debt and kind of knows that school lie about placement stats. Transparency will do nothing here. This guy is pretty typical.

    This is exactly why we need to concentrate on student loan reform so that these predatory schools can't charge tuition at levels far above what they are worth. Transparency will do the minimal. There will always be guys like this.

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  84. John,
    Success meaning the probability that, if you go to Touro or Pace or St Johns, you will achieve your goal of being employed as a criminal attorney.
    It's imperative that you figure out, for yourself, what this likelihood will be.

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  88. Lawprof, This is a damn disgrace. Here you have a real law school applicant posting here for advice, and the usual trolls have completely cluttered the thread with their idiocy.

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  91. Incidentally, there is another person we should be talking about. If you read the thread above, there is a person making $55,000 per year right now who wants to quit his job to pay full sticker price at Northwestern.

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  92. I feel very confident. I really have no other option, it is what I have worked towards and will be working towards. I am confident in my abilities and believe I will excel in law school. I am just hestitant to say this because I don't want to sound like every other person who probably says this..

    I am just so upset..I guess there is no time for that but I really wanted to be in law school for the upcoming fall. The debt is def. the worst part of it all and I guess it is crazy to throw myself into so much debt. It is just upsetting that is all..thank you

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  93. I'm going to read "very confident" as a 90% probability of success.

    Thank you for being our specimen.

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  94. John, Actually, before you go - one last question - If I showed you audited and provably honest data demonstrating that the probability of an NYLS/Touro/St Johns et. al. graduate becoming employed as a criminal lawyer is only 10-25%, would that in any way alter your confidence or decision to go to law school? Or would you be willing to take the gamble?

    Your answer would really help us in understanding the mind of a 0L.

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  95. (And that's 10-25% of those who wanted to be criminal lawyers, not 10-25% of the class total)

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  96. Transparency will do very little about a guy like this. As stated above, capping tuition and student loan reform will.

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  97. I would probably be willing to take the gamble.. I do not know so much about NYLS and probably not Touro but if I was accepted to St. Johns right now, I would attend. I would attend there with those stats. It looks kinda crazy to me reading this too by the way..I just don't know. Maybe everyone has that feeling that they are not just a number and you feel like you can overcome stats like that..maybe it's naiive but that's the truth.

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  98. Actually you're wrong 4:48. Here's what he just wrote in TLS:

    "Thanks again everybody. I really do appreciate it and I think I am going to sit out a cycle and try to get a score I can actually feel good about."

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  99. John, I don't follow. Why would you be willing to take the gamble with St. Johns but not NYLS if they both have the same probability of success?

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  100. Plus NYLS is in a much nicer area.

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  101. John1986: A couple more things to keep in mind:

    (1) When you manage to see the *real* employment stats for a third-tier school (which because of the threat of litigation and political pressure are slowly becoming available), be aware that a very large proportion of the 20% or so of grads of those schools who are ending up with actual legal careers of some sort are people who were hooked up prior to going to law school -- people who more or less had a legal job waiting for them because of family connections and the like, and just needed the credential. The proportion of third tier non-connected grads who are going to actually have real legal careers is a lot lower than the already very low percentage for the student body as a whole.

    (2) Right now you're basically depending on the fact that the American taxpayer is subsidizing a personal desire of yours that isn't grounded in a rational cost-benefit analysis. That could change, and it certainly will change at some point. For example don't bank on IBR being there five or ten years from now. (If you don't know what IBR is go back to square one).

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  102. I must say, the entire psychology of law school admissions decisions has me absolutely baffled. It seems to me that John's main goal is self esteem. That's why he is upset over the LSAT, and that's why he would choose St Johns over less "prestigious" NYLS and Touro even if all three have the same placement rate.

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  103. Following up . . . I'm glad to see you're reconsidering applying in this cycle. One of the great things about the information explosion is that it allows people to benefit from crowd-sourced information that was much harder if not impossible to get just a few years ago. Keep taking advantage of that fact.

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  104. I agree lawprof. In the least it will save him $35,000 of lost wages (assuming his boss doesn't give him a raise this year).

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  105. St. Johns is rated higher..From what I have seen on blogs, it seems to be respected more than NYLS by my peers. That is just how I feel personally..In NY when NYU is out of the question and Fordham is just hopes and dreams... St. Johns, Hofstra, CUNY Queens, Pace/ NYLS, NYLS/Pace, and Touro are the schools in order of ranking, respectively

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  106. John, Just please take this year and think about everything. You lose nothing by waiting a year. If you're really hungry for law school, order the barbri materials from Ebay and study for the bar. Feel free to write LawProf at this time next year.

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  107. The only reason I had ever thought about Touro(besides my numbers) was because it is basically attached to the Federal Court House. It seemed like it would be a good experience. I feel as though it would be a little embarassing if someone who knew about law schools asked me what law school I had attended and I had to say Touro. I want to be respected by my peers and I do not think I would get much respect attending Touro..IDK

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  108. Thanks, I really appreciate it. I am leaning towards taking time off. I just have to get my anxiety taken care of and find a good prep course.

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  109. John: Do not do "law school on demand." By that I mean do not go to any law school that will admit you simply because you want to be in law school next year. This is how the schools that you are applying to make their money, and they really do not care what happens to you when you graduate because they get paid up front.

    This is a major life decision that will, as people have stated in this thread and on TLS, most likely leave you worse off than you were before you went. TLS is a great resource. Others have raised their scores from a 149 to the 160s using the advice on there and other methods (I studied on my own without a test prep course, as do many others). It's not about "elitism." Don't buy into the bullshit that because this is America and everyone can follow their passions and still succeed you should take out 150K in loans and spend 3 years at Touro. You're not selling yourself short by waiting a year. You are demonstrating one of the most important traits a lawyer can have: good judgment.

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  110. That makes a lot of sense and I am pretty sure i am going to wait. If I were to raise my score to high 150's or 160's would you go to a tier 3 school like Pace on a scholarship or would you attend a school like Fordham with no scholarship?

    Next stop is a good class and power score books..anxiety medicine and studying for a year..I have to figure things out..oh man :)

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  111. 5:03, I agree, that's what I've been saying, except more succintly.

    Like, when I mentioned a job at NASA, I meant a guy running numbers (or at least making sure that Imperial is converted properly into metric). Whereas John was assuming my hypothetical NASA job was "Taking out the garbage." I guess that's what he sees his current job as, even though I think it sounds pretty nice.

    As someone with a J.D. whose actual job duties do involve taking out the garbage, this attitude bothers me a bit on a personal level, but what it suggests is that John is chasing the prestige--an illusory prestige at that--which he thinks will make him feel better.

    John, if I'm correct, it won't. Many of us were much happier, and had greater capacity for happiness, before we went to law school. Even though at the time many of us felt like losers with useless UG degrees and limited career prospects, few people coming out of law school do so with wide-open vistas. They are just as limited, if not more limited, in what they can do, by debt load, by the terrible job market, by non-legal employer perception of a J.D. stigma, and by belief reinforced by law school that they are elite, and better than taking out the garbage.

    Even just being at law school might not be fun. If you suffer anxiety merely from taking the LSAT, as you said, then the pressures of law school are likely to wear you down. If you don't like taking one high-stakes multiple-choice test that doesn't require much outside knowledge, demands minimal preparation, and is objectively graded, how much do you think you're going to enjoy taking four or five essay tests every six months, that require massive prep (or quasi-cheating), are to some degree subjectively graded, and unless you're some kind of genius you are only going to do as well on as your testing cohort permits? And then another test that takes three days, costs thousands of dollars, and determines whether you're even technically permitted to practice law?

    Now, I imagine there would be some satisfaction in finding a permanent position in law, where you feel competent, are surrounded by supportive and engaging peers, and which permits you to secure a decent or even extravagant standard of living for yourself and start a family.

    I also imagine there is some satisfaction in riding a unicorn.

    Seriously, dude, there is no reason to have your self-worth bound up in a dream of being a lawyer.

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  112. "Now, I imagine there would be some satisfaction in finding a permanent position in law, where you feel competent, are surrounded by supportive and engaging peers, and which permits you to secure a decent or even extravagant standard of living for yourself and start a family.

    I also imagine there is some satisfaction in riding a unicorn."

    Well put!

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  113. John: re: the issue of improving your LSATs, it certainly can be done via practice, at least within reason. After 4-6 months of sustained practice (on old LSATs), my score improved by 15 points - from diagnostic test to final LSAT score. Given the degree of passion with which you describe your desire to go to law school (you seemingly aren't a "don't know what I want to do with my useless humanities degree so I might as well go to law school" type) ... I think you should put in the work to get your LSAT score as high as possible and defer your final decision on whether you will attend law school until that point. Everyone's advice is great/well-meaning re: your poor law school and employment prospects relative to your current LSAT score. But those might shift drastically upwards if your LSAT performance does the same. Ace the LSAT as best as you're able, then decide whether to attend. Good luck.

    - A criminal defense attorney who's sympathetic to your desire to break into this field

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  114. Keep digging. If you want to practice in NY, then you may want to try and find a "non-acredited" law school, that is cheap, if it exists in NY. For instance, Massachusetts School of Law is not ABA approved, but you can take the Mass (and some other states I think) bar if you graduate. See if there is a NY equivalent.

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  115. By the way, congrats on being chosen for ABA Journal's 2011 Annual top 100 law blogs!

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  116. Thank you 6:12, I appreciate that. Also, Mikoyan, I did not see your posts above, thank you for all your input as well.

    I def. need to do some soul searching. I would love to get a high LSAT score, I believe I have made my mind up.

    I like this page, you guys really gave me some feedback. I was not expecting the amount of feedback I received. Thank you all!

    Im glad that I came on this site and also that I went to TLS. I believe if more people in my situation payed attention to websites like this and TLS, they would have a better understanding of this profession and the current conditions surrounding it.

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  117. John, serious question. if we still had debtor's prison - meaning that there's no Ibr, no bankruptcy discharge and that failure to pay at least the interest would put you in jail - would you still choose to go to St John's?

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  118. John:

    First, I imagine you have already read the comments a number of times but I would encourage you to do so again paying close attention to the comments, especially yours, about prestige dignity and self esteem. How important is the social signaling of a law degree and being able to say, "I'm a lawyer?" How much are you willing to risk for it? What are you willing to sacrifice?

    First, as you seem to have emotion tied to this decision, I will address emotional health. As a 2011 graduate I can tell you that the experience of applications, law school the bar and searching for a job tests even the sturdiest sense of self and you will be a changed person, not likely for the better (I point here to the depression statistics and anecdotal evidence that you are going to run into a lot of douchy people and may find yourself a bit of a d-bag by the end of it all.) How certain are you that failure in this endeavor will not just ruin who you are as a person? Do you have other interests pursuit of which could bolster your self esteem and sense of prestige?

    Combine that with the odds against LS being a sound financial investment.-- May I suggest an exercise?

    Try the unscientific metric I use for whether law school is a "good investment?"

    What is your salary now?

    What is your estimated total cost of attendance for law school? (don't forget living expenses, $3,500 for BarBri and 3 years of capitalized interest at 6.8%!).

    Now add 10%(again anecdotal evidence that you will still be underestimating debt 3L year).

    Add any undergrad loans if you have not already done so. This should give you your debt load post law school

    Based on this debt load, what will your monthly payments be on the standard 10 year repayment plan? (Roughly $100 for every $10,000 borrowed)

    Now, What must your salary be after law school to bring home more money factoring in your loan payments? (I know LawProf is thinking to himself "What about the opportunity Costs?" Those are present as well but set aside in my calculation.)

    For example:
    35K Pre-Law School Salary

    20K Undergrad Debt +
    130K Total Law school cost of attendance =
    150K Debt Load =
    1,500 a month (X 12) =
    18,000 a year

    35,000 + 18,000 = 53,000


    53,001 doesn't sound like too outrageous a return right? Especially after an investment of almost 5 years (APPS + LS + Bar). What are the odds you will land that salary as a lawyer? The evidence I am seeing first hand is that the odds are not good.

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  119. Jeff: Great post. It's encouraging to read clear-headed takes like this here and in some of the threads at TLS.

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  120. Please, stop attacking IBR. The IBR data collection process (which requires very rigorous proof of salary) is the transparency the government needs to fix this mess. In 5-10 years they will have data with which to compare the ROI for all education programs, and all schools. Schools like Cooley will get slaughtered. Getting the data is the first step to solving the problem.

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  121. If after you do the math you still want to go to LS, You should start thinking about the numbers and do what you can to make LS a not financially ruinous decision.

    The only way to do that is to increase your salary post graduation or decrease your debt load. As you have little control over your salary, I would suggest focusing on minimizing debt load.

    some tips-
    Do power score, its a great program, take every practice test you can under simulated conditions. If you have anxiety issues, pop a xanax and an adderall and take a practice test, see what that does to your score. Does that strike you as unseemly? Well know that many of the people taking the LSAT and LS exams use performance enhances. (You could also try a 5 hour energy and yoga breathing)

    Go to to the highest ranked school that will give you a full scholarship in the area you want to practice.

    Think about leaving New York, especially if you want "prestige". I'm sure people in Topeka think Washburn (T4)is a fine school and you can say you went there with pride at the golf course (Never been there just an example). Or in the alternative get over the prestige thing. You want to enter an extremely class segregated snooty population and no matter where you go (in NY) there's going to be someone at a cocktail party who went to Yale, learn to deal.

    look at part time programs. They may help you let go of the 160K dream earlier and having a job will allow you to build a little bit of cushion.

    You will get lots of advice and the current will pull you towards decisions that slightly increase your chance of that big salary while definitely increasing your debt load. Learn to resist.

    Or hell. you can just roll the dice Skadden will be beating down your door.

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  122. @7:18 I did didn't I? Taxes are tough to predict years out, but should be kept in mind.

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  123. John:

    Since the odds are against you landing a government position right out of law school defending or prosecuting criminal defendants You will most likely have to recruit all of your criminal clients by word of mouth and in person. Please walk us through how you think you will recruit these paying customers.

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  124. John:

    Think long and hard about law school. If you take loans out to finance law school, and if you are lucky enough to get a job that pays enough to cover your student loans and living expenses, you may well find yourself in a situation where you will be stuck in a job that you don't like and can't leave because your debt will keep you trapped.

    The dream of being a lawyer is way better than the reality. If you have seen The Shining before, the dream of law school is what Jack sees when he first enters the bathroom of Room 237. Being a lawyer is what he ends up with in his arms.

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  125. 6:12 here (the criminal defense attorney) again. One other comment for your consideration. If your focus is specifically on criminal defense, you should give serious thought to the specific challenges of this field. If you have any interest in public defender work, take a look at the blogroll on the left side of the page here: http://pdstuff.apublicdefender.com/ - you'll find a ton of PDs online blogging, with a good deal of wisdom and good-humor, about the significant/distinctive pros and cons of this work. Also take a look at James Kunen's "How Can You Defend Those People?" - an autobiographical look at what it is to practice with the PD Service in DC. I'm not saying this to discourage you, but just to make sure that your view of our field is realistic, even if you do break into it (which may be difficult unless you raise your stats for the reasons identified in this thread.) Things you need to consider:

    - We work a lot of hours, with a heavy caseload, for very little money.
    - We are held in low regard by the public, especially those of us who work with defendants with violent felony records. My colleagues and I have been screamed at and even (in rare cases) faced violently angry reactions from members of the public who hear what we do. Whatever the alleged prestige of being an attorney in some quarters, you won't find it in this field.
    - We are held in low regard by many of our clients. If you haven't heard the phrase "public pretender" (a play on public defender), you'll get very familiar with it. Some PDs find that their clients don't even think of them as real attorneys (because the clients aren't paying for their services). Even more polite clients - if held in custody - are under a good deal of stress and are often not the best-socialized people in our society, to put it euphemistically. As their attorney, you will be one of the few people "on the outside" talking to them - and they will often take their stresses and frustrations out on you.
    - Within the violent felony context, we see a lot of human pain and suffering. We see in graphic detail what our clients have in fact inflicted or been wrongly accused of inflicting. We also see - and are often the only ones sensitive to - the pain and suffering that our clients have often lived throughout their lives. Even outside of violent felonies - in misdemeanor or juvie contexts - we constantly see squandered potential and encounter clients who cannot or will not reform, which itself entails some sadness. I know very few PDs, especially felony defenders, who are wholly unaffected by this vicarious sadness.

    (I have no experience with white-collar defense. I'm also not sure what the pros and cons of doing SmallLaw, criminal defense edition, would be - where you live in a small town and represent folks accused of petty thefts and DUIs. So my comments are from the perspective of a felony defender in an urban location.)

    These considerations are enough to make many people swear off PD work altogether. I think that anyone who goes to law school to become a PD needs to think long and hard about whether they're prepared to deal with them in the long term. But, I nonetheless think it's a great career choice for some people - I have to run now, but I'm happy to say more about this, only if you (or anyone else) are interested.

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  126. 8:23: Well I'm certainly interested. I hope you stick around.

    I also hope we hear from people doing other kinds of criminal defense (white collar, small law).

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  127. John,
    As a lawyer your only question should be, "is it legal to go to law school?" If it is then go. Nothing else matters. Live by the law.

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  128. Appellate PD here. Midwest. When I started, in 1998, these jobs were practically consolation prizes for law school flops. Now, in the age of public sector austerity, there are about 200 applicants for every job posted.

    I do love the work though.

    I don't know what to tell the OP. Maybe: find a time machine and go back to 1998.

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  129. John,

    I believe someone above has mentioned this, but it really important to consider the likelihood that you will bomb law school exams (and perhaps the bar exam) if you have such high anxiety about the LSAT. In most law school classes your entire grade is based upon a closed book exam at the end of the semester. I would also think really hard about what was said @ 8:23. PD work can be very rewarding, but not many are cut out for it.

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  130. transparency boy @ 7:25 - stop spamming this site with your IBR pipe dreams.

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  131. In calculating his chance of getting a real job as a criminal defence lawyer, John1986 should realize that in this age almost the only way that an aspiring attorney can acquire the skills of this trade (or any future clients) is to first work for the prosecutors office or the public defender. The previous commenter says there are 200 applications for every job at his PD office. The ratio must be even higher for the more desirable jobs in the district attorneys offices. With his grades and LSATs he will attend a low 3rd tier school at best. The majority of the 200 applicants he will be competing against will have graduated from a more highly rated law school, many from 1st and 2nd tier schools. Most will also have a higher class standing. A small number will have connections. And this will happen in each and every job he applies for. Everyone, everywhere. Why he should ask himself would he be chosen for an interview? Why would he be the one person in 200 who is offered a job? If he can't find a specific and concrete answer to these questions he should not attend law school. William Ockham

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  132. LawProf, To avoid needless spamming, can you please delete all comments with the words "transparency boy" in them.

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  133. "Appellate PD here. Midwest. When I started, in 1998, these jobs were practically consolation prizes for law school flops. Now, in the age of public sector austerity, there are about 200 applicants for every job posted."

    This is true. In the old days, "there is always PD" was the answer you gave to people who didn't get biglaw. Now PD is just as difficult as biglaw in the old days.

    How did the ABA f*ck things up this badly?

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  134. I find it interesting that John answered every question, except the one pointing out how the rate of depression climbs from 4% in 0Ls to 40% in 3Ls. He just ignored that question.

    That is easily the most harmful and dangerous aspect of law school - it is essentially a mental illness factory. Read the comments on law related boards like this one, jdunderground, xoxohth, (but not top law schools because those are 0Ls who are still in the 4% group) and you will see.

    Do you want to be mentally ill John? Do you not like having normal emotions and perspectives? Do you not like the joy and happiness you currently feel, because you're not depressed? If so then go to law school. But if you want to preserve your mental health stay the hell out.

    See the first link here for the study verifying those statistics:

    http://www.google.com/search?q=depression+law+school+40%25&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7

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  135. "How did the ABA **** things up this badly?"

    What is "intentionally" Alex

    If law prof is reading this I do have a question for him. Does the ABA receive more revenue for each new law school it approves, and if so how much? It would be interesting to know whether there is a meaningful financial incentive for them to greenlight new 4th tier schools.

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  136. I read that the ABA head makes $700,000 per year.

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  137. To add to 6:26, John if you're already slightly suffering from mental issues (your anxiety) how do you think an environment that turns a 4% rate of depression into a 40% rate of depression is going to affect you?

    Forget the jobs, forget the loans, forget all that. This is about your mental health. Despite your anxiety you are still functioning, you hold a full time job and you seem generally happy and positive. Not only will law school likely not give you a job, but it will take that little bit that you have away from you.

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  138. Again, everyone thank you for your input. I do not have all of the answers to your questions and I will def. not sit here and pretend that I do. I will just have to study hard and get my numbers up so I can be more competitive. I have over 1 year to raise my score. This is really what I want...I believe this year will allow me to save money, pay off some debt and focus on the LSAT.

    I did not always have such anxiety with tests, it really started with this test and it is because it determines if I can fulfill my dreams or not in respect to becoming an attorney. I do not want to really call it a dream because I will get there; it is all I have ever wanted.

    I would love to get a job in the DA's office but I cannot quit my job right now in a real-estate attorney’s office to do that. I have over two years of experience in real-estate and because my mother owns a title insurance company, I have been around this all my life. I have learned a lot over the years and one thing I do know, real-estate is not something I want to jump in when I graduate law school but it pays the bills right now and I cannot give it up this moment.

    I know I am getting probed with the “what are you going to do here? What are you going to do in this situation? And that one?” Well, I just do not know as I am sure a lot of people did not know when pursuing law school, but they received a higher score on a test and therefore it was ok for them to attend… I don’t know, I have a lot of things to do for the LSAT and a lot of thinking to do.

    I really do appreciate everyone’s comments. I have read each one a few times and it really means a lot.

    By the way, the more I read from the defense attorney, the more I want to be one. You guys have to understand, I never thought this was going to be easy and I do not think it will magically become easier when I graduate.

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  139. two questions, with respect:

    1) how do you plan to pay for law school?

    2) If you do not raise your score will you stop pursuing law school?

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  140. Still didn't address the issue that law school is a mental illness factory.

    Right now from your writing, John, you are clearly not depressed. If you go to law school, given your issues with anxiety, and given the fact that law school turns a population with 4% depression into one with 40% depression, you will likely be mentally ill by 3L.

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  141. 1.)

    I was planning on student loans to be honest and paying them off slowly with a job. Now after reading, I have decided to study for a year and try and get scholarship money.

    2.)

    I cannot really say.

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  142. John,

    Just to give you more evidence of how law school creates mental illness, compare the posts on 0L sites like Top Law Schools to 1L, 2L, 3L, and law graduate sites like xoxohth, abovethelaw, JDU and this site (the person you are talking to, Terry Malloy, for example is deranged and emotionally disturbed; he posts here with multiple monikers.) Don't stop there. Read some of Brian Leiter's old blog psots, when he was being himself. Or even read some of Easterbrook's and Posner's opinions (for example the one in which he put a weird picture into his opinion). A large portion of the legal community is mentally ill.

    Right now your a TLS type. You're optimistic, generally happy, and show other signs of mental health, such as holding down a full time job. Your own problem is anxiety with the LSAT which is too narrow to be called a mental illness.

    If you go to law school, given your background, I can almost guaranty you that you will be mentally ill. Law school is a mental illness factory and you're susceptible.

    That's my last warning to you on this topic.

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  143. October 2011 test

    LG LR RC LR
    11 10 17 17

    After the break I am ok..I need to improve in everything but LG I have heard is the most learnable and the only reason I got a 10 in the first LR I feel was nerves. A 10 in LR1 and 17 in LR2..I just feel I can do better.

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  144. Thank you, I will consider this. I appreciate the time you put into your posts.

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  145. hell read 8:23's post above. how many times did he or she use the word "sadness" in their post?

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  146. John,

    Is working for your mother's title insurance company an option upon graduation? Is working for the company while attending school part time an option?

    What you will likely find upon graduation is that will be at a great advantage if you are merely not drowning in your bills 6 months after graduation. Planning for the LSAT, Apps, and LS is one thing, but you MUST think about how the choices you make will impact your position six months after graduation.

    If you make smart financial choices, the time you can spend looking for your "dream job" is extended.

    I would also advise exploring a job in a criminal defense setting while you are prepping for and in school. I work in an urban adult/felony prosecution division and the stressors faced by people in criminal work and PD's in particular are unique and emotionally difficult. Crime is like the mail, it doesn't stop, and its almost always sad. Also, the "nobility of your struggle" as a motivator does wear off.

    Again, while I am not a New Yorker I imagine the competition there is even tougher, think about moving. If you want to be a criminal defense lawyer, crime is the same everywhere. I have a close friend who graduated middle of the pack at my T4 this year, no law review, no moot court, lots of public service volunteering, he landed a permanent job as a prosecutor in October. Why? Because he moved back to Kansas and applied for a job in the middle of nowhere.

    If it's really about the work and not about impressing people at a NY Cocktail party with stories from the PD trenches, I bet your chances of success getting a job coming out of "Not T14" will increase if you leave NY.

    Even if you want to stay in NY, the other advice applies, it is going to require a lot of sacrifice and hard decisions, but minimizing the negative financial impact of law school will pay lasting dividends.

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  147. Ignoring the psychoanalysis of 7:09,

    i)Don't take out more student debt than your starting salary. Just don't do it. See the analysis on this site.

    ii) Sometimes giving up is the courageous act. it took me a long time to reckon with how wrong I was to go to law school, and how my dream was a lie that didn't come true.

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  148. "my dream was a lie that didn't come true."

    See what I mean? Do you see deep emotional pain like this on TLS? No you see a bunch of frivolous kids laughing it up and having fun. That's because 0Ls are not mentally ill. But due to law school, many many 1Ls, 2Ls, 3Ls and graduates are.

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  149. P.S. Keep in mind that Terry Malloy previously said he makes six figures so it's not a money thing. Money doesn't immunize you from mental illness, and in fact many biglaw partners are depressed or suffering. For that reason alone, you should run like hell. John, you're a happy, optimistic and mentally healthy person. Keep it that way.

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  150. Make six figures (outside the law), owe six figures. Live in a bad neighborhood with a roommate. I owe my soul to the company store.

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  151. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?pagewanted=all


    I guess that sums it up

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  152. John1986:

    We understand that you "have a dream," but reality--the extremely high cost of law school, the total lack of jobs and opportunities, and the general shitiness of the work--doesn't give a crap about your dream.

    I suggest you read "Brightsided" by Barbara Ehrenreich. I also suggest that sometimes re-evaluating one's dream in the face of reality is a sign of maturity.

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  153. John 1986,
    You are of the mind set that if you work hard enough and want something badly enough, you will achieve it. That is unfortunately not true. Countless people want to become MDs, actors, business owners, writers, etc, and no matter how hard they try and how much they wish, it's just not going to happen. Succeeding in these very, very competitive fields - which criminal law in NYC absolutely is at this time - requires hard work, and a dream, as well as a good amount of natural talent, being in the right place at the right time, and being very focused from a young age. You, John, are lacking the last three.
    John, you can't take tests well. You can't sit for the LSAT without having anxiety problems. That doesn't make you a lesser person, it doesn't mean you can't make a wonderful contribution to this world, but it does mean you won't succeed as a lawyer. If the LSAT is this stressful, what about tests in school? What about the bar?
    Yes, you (and just about any other college graduate) could get into some law school somewhere. But please don't, and I'm not just saying that because I'm a tax payer and will be on the hook for your loans. Find something where you can use the skill set that you do have. Don't throw time and money away on a dream that won't come true. There are professions in this world where you will excel - where you will be the equivalent of that guy with the NYU acceptance letter. Please find happiness in one of them.

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  154. 6:12/8:23 here again. As promised, here are a few thoughts on what indigent/felony defenders appreciate about our work:

    1. The tremendous sensation of being the only person standing between a client whom society dislikes and the coercive/punitive power of the State. The realization that it falls to you alone to hold the state to its burden. It is for you to persuade a jury, trial court, or appellate court of your client's innocence or absence-of-guilt-beyond-a-reasonable-doubt (depending on the procedural posture of the case), worthiness of a lesser sentence, or even worthiness to live rather than to die.

    2. Many of our clients have never before had a zealous advocate in any context. Their social histories are filled with physical/sexual childhood abuse, juvenile exposure to drug use, gangs, violence, etc. They rarely have had parents and teachers who were consistently strong role models. They may have undiagnosed and/or untreated mental illnesses. Often, in light of their criminal charges and/or convictions, society really doesn't care about these mitigating factors. (If you're reading this and saying, "Yeah, if they committed a violent felony, I really don't care," you probably aren't born to be a defender. If you feel passionately about fighting for the constitutional rights of, and championing the humanity of, people whom society views (usually with some justification) as "monsters," "deadbeats," "lowlifes," "losers," and "scum," then felony defense may be for you.) We identify factors that mitigate our clients' crimes and demonstrate their humanity, and we demand of juries and courts that they care. We do what we can to give even our convicted clients the best outcome possible, i.e., as gainful an incarcerated life as possible, a shot at rehabilitation, etc. Over the course of representing a client, we sometimes see striking, positive changes in their behavior. When these changes are coupled with statements like, "I never had someone who believed in me before. Now that you do, I feel inspired to..." - it's incredibly powerful. (I do not, however, mean to suggest that we hear such statements daily.)

    3. Criminal law is extremely interesting and poses important constitutional issues. I have rarely met a bored felony PD or DA. This work gives you insight into how society should balance deterrence, retribution, and rehabilitation ... what it means to say that an outcome is "fair" or "just". Of course, the average PD will have different views on this than the average DA, and the truth is probably in between our partisan perspectives. But I think criminal lawyers on both sides of the aisle are people who like constantly wrestling with these questions.

    So there you have it. The carrot of PD work is important, interesting cases. I think it is rare for us to feel that our work lacks purpose. After all, we play an indispensable role in fighting for a fair, rights-respecting criminal justice system. We work to ensure that no person faces the full coercive might of the State without a trained advocate beside him or her. The sticks are as I previously described. People cut out to be felony defenders have to believe so passionately in the importance and worth of their work that they can withstand the rough hours and pay, an public-approval rating not much higher than Congress', difficult clients, and the constant violence and brutality we see in these cases. In other words, this is a job that you do because (you believe) it's the right thing to do...even if no one else in your life understands how on earth you can voluntarily do this job, let alone why you want it.

    If you see yourself in this description at all, John, then you need - rationally/objectively - to evaluate whether there's a way for you to get there. I'll say a bit about that in a second comment.

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  155. 3:17 here - just to acknowledge what Jeff said above: "Also, the "nobility of your struggle" as a motivator does wear off."

    I think that's right. The justifications that I just listed for PD work DON'T always sustain people through a career. The PD burnout rate is high, and most attorneys *don't* stay for their whole career. But, when I've talked to the attorneys at my office who have put in 20-30+ years in this specific field, they still tend to cite the above justifications, especially #1 and #2, as reasons why they've stayed.

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  156. Lastly, John, were I in your shoes, here's what I would do:

    1. Give the LSAT 100%. Put all your free time into studying for it, since criminal law is your dream (not merely an interest). Do many practice tests under timed conditions. Find a prep class or book (depending on available funds) and work through it. Take the LSAT when your personal life is stable. Get the best damn score you can possibly manage. (Note: you may be able to explain your first LSAT score and avoid averaging the two if you disclose your medical issue in your applications.)

    2. While waiting for your LSAT score, learn everything you can about being a defender. Read relevant books, blogs, law review articles. Make sure that your dream is fully connected to the reality of our field. You are drawn to criminal procedure and statutory research - but what about day-after-day of court through a steady stream of misdemeanor plea bargains, where a cranky judge is yelling at you because your clients couldn't be bothered to show up? Are you equally willing to do either trial or appellate criminal law? (The appellate jobs are rarer and often more competitive.)

    3. Research defender burnout. Think about what you are going to do if you get a criminal defense job and realize (like most of us eventually do) that you won't do it forever. Are you interested in other areas of law? What's the backup plan?

    4. Once you've gotten your improved LSAT score and answers to #2-3 above, rationally evaluate your options. Pick 2-3 schools likely to accept you based on GPA/LSAT. Review their tuition, scholarships, financial aid, and post-graduation employment rates (but re: the last, bear in mind the often-glaring inaccuracies of school statistics). Then, contact Admissions/Career Services and identify yourself as a prospective (or admitted student) who wants to do criminal defense. Ask them how many alums have gotten paid criminal law jobs recently (~3 years). Critically, ask that they put you in touch with a couple of RECENT grads (a) who are PDs and (b) in private criminal defense practice. (You may also want to ask for recent grad prosecutors.) See if you can arrange to buy these grads a coffee or lunch and discuss their experience - how difficult was their job search? Did they have to volunteer before getting a paid job? For how long? Can they pay their loans? Is their work fulfilling? If they knew then what they know now, would they choose to go to law school again? And are their other classmates who wanted to be criminal lawyers employed? As prosecutors/defenders? Happily?

    If Admissions/Career Services can't or won't put you in touch with their defender grads (especially after they've admitted you), then think long and hard whether they deserve your trust, to the tune of 150-180K in loans to attend. The same is true if you get very negative responses from the grads (they're underwater with loans they can't pay back, they had to volunteer for a year and live with their parents before getting a 40K job - but that's still better than the half of their class that's unemployed, etc.)

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  157. 5. If you're still undeterred, do some hard number-crunching. How much will you take out in loans? What are your chances of post-LS employment - and what is your likely salary if you are employed? Can you afford the monthly loan payments? What's your backup plan if you don't get a legal job? How will your student loan debt affect your quality of life? Don't engage in magical thinking; don't assume that your outcome will be vastly different than the others who've attended your institution.

    6. If you then resolve to enter law school, hit the ground running. Have game plans for developing a solid defender skill-set AND networking. Be sure that your transcript exudes your interest in criminal law. What externships, clinicals, and volunteer work will you use to demonstrate your commitment to criminal defense? Are there (clinical) professors at your school with useful connections to the field? How can you develop ties with them? How are you going to network with the defense bar in your county/state?

    You owe it to yourself to do this pre-planning. If you do it, and you work out objectively that pursuing a criminal defense career is accessible for you - both ideologically and practically/financially ... well, you're still taking a risk in this economy, but at least it will be the most calculated, well-reasoned risk you can manage. But if you do this research and realize that (a) you are not likely to be employable as a defender; (b) you cannot afford to be a defender on the student loans you will have to take out; or (c) the reality of being a defender isn't as attractive as you initially thought ... then I hope you will accept these realizations and move on to find a different fulfilling and practical career path. Good luck to you.

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  158. 7. Also, play the old Atari video game "Defender." Every little bit helps.

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  159. Felony defender, that is *really* good advice, especially #4. And man, you're making me want to be a public defender. Immigration has its charms too! Lots of people hate our clients too! Ahem, moving along...

    John1986, if you're still reading, another bit of advice: after you retake the LSAT, study a second language. Preferably Spanish. A huge number of legal job postings require or "strongly prefer" Spanish fluency or proficiency. That's something that not all JD's have, and can truely set you apart from the pack. /my two cents

    I would add that this whole discussion illustrates one of the many reasons I dislike US News and World Report rankings: they make the law school admissions process so entirely numbers-driven. If I were in law school admissions and I didn't have to worry about rankings, I would certainly *consider* LSAT scores and undergrad grades because they do have some predictive value, but I would also consider things like a dramatic upward trend in grades and especially, legal work experience. But as it is, anything that can't be quantified is all but irrelevant.

    Of course, law schools die by that sword as well, as their entire existience is summed up by their U.S. News ranking. If you asked me about my particular school, I'd have some bad things to say about it, but also some very good things, especially about the professors, many of whom were excellent teachers with (believe it or not) actually legal work experience who taught me some useful stuff and inspired me to do good in the world, and all that. But U.S. News says it's 4th tier, so it must be a toilet, as far as (way too many) people are concerned.

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  160. *actual legal work experience

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  161. Felony defender, 
    That was unbelievable. I will 100 % take your advice. Your post made me very happy and eager to work towards accomplishing my goals, in a calculated fashion of course. I really appreciate you taking the time to write to me.
      
    I wish you the best in all of your future endeavors.

    Thanks

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  162. MA,
    Thank you for your comment. I also am not a huge fan of the US News and World Reports ranking. I am sure there is good and bad in any law school and I think it is a shame a lot of schools are categorized so negatively. I am sure many schools deserve it but not all. The damn debt is just the worst ugh 

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  163. John, Here's a website that will help you practice for your future as a defender.

    http://www.classicgamesarcade.com/game/21638/defender.html

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  164. John - Felony Defender is giving you TERRIFIC advice. As someone who also works in criminal defense, here's my two cents: FD's advice in #6 is crucial, really. I interned/volunteered with my organization for about two years before graduation, after which they hired me. This organization in particular really only hires people who previously interned with them. I can guarantee you my boss doesn't know whether I was ranked first or last in my class, just that she liked my work. I also did clinic in my third year, and worked my ass off to impress both clinical instructors. The criminal defense bar is often a very small world, wherever you practice, and impressing people early on can be very beneficial.

    Also, wait it out and retake the test. I didn't go to law school until I was 26. I knew plenty of people my age or older. If you can bring the score up and get some scholarship money, that will really pay off in the future, especially if you really want to work in a field where salaries are desperately low. There is NO rush. And, really, consider alternatives to New York. Really. The odds that are already against you coupled with the cost of living ALONE up there, well, it's dangerous.

    Lastly, consider working as an investigator as an alternative to law school. PDs and DAs both hire investigators. Actually, I do double duty as an attorney/investigator where I work. The investigation side is overwhelmingly more exciting/interesting/whatever than the legal side, at least in my experience. And, you get paid decently, if not quite as much as an attorney. Also, in addition to the research advice offered by FD, I'd say take a day off from work and spend it in one of the sections of your local criminal court. This can be an eye opener as to the "excitement" of it all. It ain't Law & Order, that's for sure.

    Good luck to you.

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  165. This blog is fantastic; what you show us is very interesting and is really good written. It’s just great!!

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  166. Aside from a few other things that a lot of these comments make me want to jump in with,

    What on earth is up with all of the St. John's bashing?

    I have a friend who graduated from there recently (within the past couple years) and got a job practicing law - with a major firm in NY - pretty much immediately. Not a $150,000 job, but somewhere in the 80k-100k range that pays the bills.

    Not every person who successfully practices law went to HYSCCN. Get over yourselves.

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  167. John 1986 you are not alone. I am in the same boat you are, LSAT score wise. For a lot of reasons I too have decided to re-test in Feb, and sit out this cycle. One suggestion I wanted to make is for you to look for scholarships for a test prep course because this may help your score (I praying it helps mine). Good luck in Feb.

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