Thursday, December 20, 2012

HuffPost live discussion: Does law school have a future?

I'm going to be discussing that question with some other people today between 1 and 1:30 eastern time here.

Update: Other participants include Brian Tamanaha, Elie Mystal, Luke Bierman, and a recent law graduate who is not employed as a lawyer.

85 comments:

  1. Its future may be that of a finishing school for the children of the rich.

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  2. I hope you all invited Brian Leiter to tell you that law students reading Nietzsche will always enrich society, and to remind you that what you're doing isn't real professor work compared to his pages and pages of field-altering work.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. A couple, random things about Leiter:

      - Someone invited him and Campos to debate whether law school was a scam. Campos accepted. Leiter declined.

      - Leiter trolls as "Pushkin." Though an obsessive troll, his trolling is painfully obvious.

      Delete
    2. Brian Leiter, like Jackass Marshall, always puts the word scam in quotes when referring to the law school scam.

      Delete
    3. ^ UNETCHICAL post of the day!

      Delete
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    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It's like the spambot writers aren't even trying anymore. Is this randomly generated text? Or was it translated from Cantonese by a third grader...

      Delete
  4. ^^^^^
    I see Leiter found his crack pipe.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Law prof: I would have loved to be there. I have an eye doctors appointment at 130.

    I look forward to reading the outcome of this discussion.

    Good luck and keep up the good fight.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The optometrist won't be able to correct willful blindness.

      Delete
    2. Sorry, I thought that was a reference to Leiter; I didn't see the break between the messages.

      Delete
  6. Interesting cast.

    Where is Claudio Grossman and Dean Lawrence Mitchell?

    Don't mean to digress, but I saw an interesting article about the LIBOR Scandal - the last paragraph said that the banks involved will be hit with lawsuits for years. Keep in mind that many student loan servicers (such as Access Group, ACS, etc.) used LIBOR rates to determine SL interest rates. This might be a good class action suit for law students - and the named planitiffs will look like heroes as opposed to unemployable losers.

    http://business.time.com/2012/12/20/libor-scandal-yep-its-as-bad-as-we-thought/

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. any transaction that referenced LIBOR is impacted. it is a zero-sum situation. half of each transaction has a basis to sue.

      Delete
  7. Please get it posted on Youtube or somewhere similar so that those who can't see it live can see it later on. Thanks.

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    Replies
    1. ^^^This. It looks like Dean Bierman is getting rightly trashed in the comments.

      Delete
  8. lawprof didn't get much airtime, but tamanaha and elie went to town on the putrid shill bierman.

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  9. That was a good forum. Thank you!

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  10. The girl said she is making a third of what she thought so I am presuming that to be 55-60k in NYC with student loans, why was she so chipper...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. She isn't working retail.

      Delete
  11. Lulz did anyone else see Leiter trolling the live comments. Campos is a hypocrite! Let's cut your salary, Campos!

    In Campos' words, what an obsessive little freak.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Would the people who claim Brian Leiter is trolling please provide some evidence?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Have you read his posts on Campos, or his posts about his posts about Campos?

      Delete
    2. Don't forget his anonymous comments. My favorite example from this blog can be found at the bottom of the comment thread here: http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2012/02/you-cannot-be-serious.html

      Delete
    3. He even trashes the people who comment on this blog. He knows the world is collapsing on the whole charade.

      Delete
  13. That "law grad" Jamie Weisglass is just as scummy as the rest of the establishment. She couldn't find a Corporate gig so is now managing doc review gigs with "100 temp attroneys in her office who are just happy to have a job." Ugggh.....its one thing to be a part of something so slimey to put food on the table and pay off student debt, quite another to label it her "dream job." Bottom feeder.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I noticed that too, but the trolling from Leiter was to profound to merit a response to some poor 24 year old who is making 50k a year exploiting t3 grads.

      Delete
    2. The the 'host' was almost unbearable to listen to as well.

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    3. So she's the foreman and thinks that elevates her?

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  14. LawProf,
    Could you please post the link where we can hear the conversation if we missed it? I went to HuffPost but it seems I am unable to hear it again.

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    Replies
    1. Honestly, it wasn't all that interesting. And Campos came in late and on the phone because his video link wasn't working. Elie made some good points but the whole thing was so short and there were so many guests that it was just touching on the basics. Nothing in depth at all.

      Delete
    2. I think it's working now

      Delete
  15. The one interesting thing from the video was that the Dean didn't try to defend law schools. He alluded to the idea that the law school market is correcting now, but will be stabilizing. I think it will take some law schools closing before these deans get theirs heads out of the sand a realize the law schools are not simply experiencing a correction, but are in a long-term bear market.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. He didn't actively defend them, but every time Elie or Prof. Tamahana pointed out that we need to reduce costs he would try and push the discussion off onto what he was doing with Northeastern's co-op program, or how law schools need to engage the profession or something. What he's doing isn't creating legal jobs where there are none- it's redistributing more of the Boston area legal jobs to Northeastern grads by direct hiring and indirect resume boosting (you pay 50K for the school to act as a broker between you and employers).

      I wish one of these guys would just come out and say it. "We care more about our salaries and our lifestyles than reducing tuition or the number of law students. Any changes we make will never result in salary or faculty cuts or change how we spend our days (mostly scholarship."

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    2. That was the frustrating thing. Elie, Campos or Tamahana needed to directly confront Bierman by name instead of letting him get comfortable with is sales pitch. The time to be nice and collegial has long passed.

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    3. Elie Mystal runs Above the Law.

      Delete
    4. Unemployed NortheasternDecember 20, 2012 at 3:44 PM

      @BoredJD

      Northeastern isn't even hitting 50% full-time, permanent, JD-required jobs. 4 of 184 got work at firms north of 100 lawyers. Co-op has a lot of smoke and mirrors. And the only law schools more expensive in New England are Harvard and Yale.

      Delete
    5. Oh, THAT moron? Jesus, what an idiot he is! "Above the Law" is a real toilet of a Web site.

      Delete
  16. Never take an interview with a laughing kid in a tight fitting, purple v neck polyester sweater very seriously.

    Holy crap. Is this the very best that we can do by now?



    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Jesus. I'm glad that I didn't watch it.

      Delete
  17. lol no one mentioned the real reason for the high tution. Government guaranteed student loans, you take that out the tutions will TANK.

    well perhaps they mentioned it, couldn't see the whole thing but I saw most of it..

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. too broad of a stroke. tuition will probably not tank at the T14.

      Delete
    2. If Touro, Barry, and Cooley are worth ~$50k per year, then Cornell has to be worth tens of millions.

      Delete
  18. I'm sward1004. Who is Leiter? If Campos were serious about reform he'd take a pay cut or donate the proceeds from book sales. Why haven't there been massive pay cuts and layoffs at law schools like in the private sector? Cut professor pay (including Campos's), cut staff, cut the third year and force law schools via ABA to publish financials.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Oh right of course you knew to come to this blog, and you know all about Campos' book, but you don't know who Leiter is.

      Delete
  19. Campos is a conflicted character with a conscience, and caught in an intricate web like all of us. Whether or not Campos donates to charity or the "cause" will be his own choice and that may never known until his will is read.

    Leiter is a well paid and mythological know it all. Probably knows what is wrong with everything everywhere and is just as ineffective at social reform as the worst of them.

    Elie is the front man for a corridor or hallway backdrop.

    The beards are very, very distinguished and learned.

    And Tamanaha looks like a teenager!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Campos lives in an ivory tower on the hill.

      Delete
    2. At least he opens the window of that ivory tower so that his colleagues can see what the fuck is going on.

      Meanwhile Leiter trolls.

      Delete
  20. Completely off topic, but I was interested to see that Erwin Chemerinsky believes that, after law students have been fleeced by law schools such as his, they should also be required to perform many hours of pro bono work as a precondition for bar admission.

    http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202581505806

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. A number of law schools already require pro bono work for which they, bien sûr, take the credit—much like all the corporations and quasi-corporate organizations that put pressure on their employees to give money to that vile racket the United Way and then take credit for the donations.

      Delete
  21. Did anyone catch Dean Bierman's odious, sanctimonious praise of the lawyer who wasn't working in law?

    Tamahana replied well to that.

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    Replies
    1. I was face palming hard. Bierman grasps onto the logic of a 12 year-old "Aha. See!! There, I told there were alternative successful careers! Don't talk about tuition! Whatever you do, do not talk about the money!!!"

      Delete
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  23. Ms. Weissglass mentions that she works in ESI - an industry she didn't even know existed. Why do I feel this isn't unusual for law students? It's a multi-billion dollar industry that is directly related to law, and yet most of the "philosophers" running law schools have no idea what it is, nor do they care that many of their students might do well in this field. These ass clowns are far too busy collecting their fat paychecks and writing "scholarship" that no one reads, to take notice.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Ms. Weissglass seems very comfortable in her current job, which I would analogize to being a "house negro" looking down on the "field negroes"(i.e., doc review monkeys). I remember when I attended law school a few decades ago how Northeastern prided itself as an affordable law school which was committed to public interest. At its current tuition rates, it is clear that the school's original mission has been replaced by pure and unmitigated greed. Dean Bierman is someone I would not trust, heck I wouldn't even buy a used car from that snake.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yeah but couldn't any lawyer who is happy to have a job be considered a "house negro"? That's how incredibly fucked up this whole thing is.

      Delete
    2. Have you ever done doc review? The people who manage them are a special breed unto themselves.

      Delete
    3. I dunno. Whether Ms. Weissglass is doing God's work or not (she's not), is not really much of an issue for me. Does anyone really expect her to come out and say "I am a cog that turns other, (slightly) smaller cogs, for the benefit of giant rent-seekers?" Forget quitting, she can only make the most oblique criticisms--paraphrasing, "I wanted to practice conventional law." Hell, I'll even give her credit--she even says "It's sad that this is what people
      [the small army of doc reviewers she supervises] are doing with their law degrees"!

      That's actually quasi-ballsy. Paul Campos got tenure; Jaime Weisglass ain't got tenure. I hope she doesn't get into trouble over that comment (although in my experience, PMs and staff attorneys know the job we does not quite equal the sum of our dreams and ambitions, so hopefully she works under similarly realistic folks and she'll just be fine).

      Delete
    4. What are you babbling about, Mikoyan? She can make the same salary doing plenty of other things...shes a U Penn grad. She has a choice and she chooses doing and perpetuating one of the most scummy aspects of our business.

      Delete
    5. I wouldn't be so sure about that. We all have college degrees. Not all from U Penn, so that holds some weight.

      I mean, arguably I perpetuate one of the scummier aspects of the legal industry by working in doc review where I do (geographically, rather than positionally--a low COL area where market is as low as 50% what NYC coders made as recently as a couple of years ago).

      I'm not gonna quit. I probably wouldn't say I'm in love with it, either, but I'm not hedging on an Internet broadcast that shows my face, either.

      Besides, I'm not saying she's a saint, just that she's not some kind of monster. To add my own offensive historical references this sub-thread seems to enjoy, she's not Totenkopf; she's not even Waffen; at worst, she's like some minor functionary in a Luftwaffe Field Division.

      Unless, of course, I'm way misunderstanding her job, which I equate to PM's, staff attorney's, or paralegal's at my shop.

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    6. She manages large doc reviews. She is not a doc reviewer. She is a rent seeker - making money off the labor of doc reviewers stuck in a life of misery .

      If you're a doc reviewer than you're a victim of the system and she's the middle man taking advantage of your sweat.

      Delete
    7. Then, similarly, why can't doc reviewers make the same salary doing other things besides doc review, like Ms. Weissglass can?

      It's because we're all stuck. And it's a fucked up system that we're all stuck in. But I don't blame her for trying to get ahead in e-discovery. It's a field that is expanding and which is, thank God, undermining the traditional, antiquated legal "profession."

      Delete
    8. @11:10 - no. there are victims and victimizers just like in the old system but here there are absolutely no basic perks like a career and health insurance, etc. - and shes clearly in the victimizer category. Its the old system on steroids. It makes the old "antiquated" system look like Sweden. You really don't know that? Are you talking out of simple ignorance because that is quite a sad leap you're making with a gigantic misunderstanding of what os going on.

      Delete
    9. What sad leap? You seem to be confusing my reference to traditional legal practice as antiquated (which it is) for a reference to the old days of jobs, benefits, etc. as antiquated (which is not what I'm saying at all).

      The entire legal market is now one of victims and victimizers simply because law schools are turning out too many grads. People are happy to secure full time jobs with law firms that also employ "lawyers" to do grunt work for $10/hr. Or they're happy to take a secure government job while the government simultaneously takes on other law grads as unpaid "interns." Doc review used to pay well while also offering flexibility, until the glut of unemployed law grads turned it into the cesspool that it currently is. But I don't blame any law grad for trying to get ahead in one of these firms, the government, or in e-discovery.

      Delete
    10. "Doc review used to pay well while also offering flexibility, "

      HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. The percentage of people you described that do doc review is probably in the 1%. You're arguing that people do this as a specific choice? Again, maybe 1%. MAYBE.

      And thats the difference between me and you....all these people who jump into scummy e-discovery (on the management side) deserve the scorn they get. In the old days when you aided in ruining people's livelihood you got a two by four upside the head. And the girl we were talking about isn't just "getting ahead"...she described it as her "dream job." That puts her in the "ignorant, moronic botton-feeder" category.

      The major issue in this industry is that people like you just go quietly along hoping for the crumbs at the table ready to take advantage of anyone they can - all along not knowing that they are next in the firing line. The fact that you don't realize this makes you an idiot. Don't whine when you get outsourced, bro.

      Delete
    11. The point was that doc review used to pay well, doc reviewers were treated better, and it offered flexibility for decent pay that, say, a law firm didn’t offer. That doesn’t mean that people now do it as a specific choice. Like I said, it’s now a cesspool.

      And nowhere in the video does she say that she manages doc reviewers; she says that she works next to them. She’s an ESI consultant. And she’s pretty clear that she’s excited about the field (thus probably wanting to get ahead in it). E-discovery is a huge field with a shit ton of opportunities that don’t involve hoping for crumbs while waiting to get fired. It’s not all doc review and managing doc review, though it’s pretty clear that you are oblivious to this.

      In fact e-discovery is so huge that most people in the field, aside from doc reviewers, make good money. Document reviewers make shit because law schools graduate so many students with so much debt, that lawyers are now willing to fight for $20/hour doc review gigs that last a week. This, not your rambling nonsense above, is the real issue with the legal profession.

      Delete
    12. "The point was that doc review used to pay well,"

      If you call $25 to $40 an hour, cramped in a tiny room for a week or three doing 60-90 hours a week "paying well." Did you ever do it? I was involved in it when it first started 15 years ago and followed along and watched it grow since. It was always a horrible positions and the people were always treated like sh*t and fired on a moment's notice. You sound extremely ignorant. It has always been a cesspool with only a handful of exceptions.

      "she says that she works next to them."

      And what the hell do you think that means? If she wasn't involved she wouldn't be interacting with them at all. And what do you think her job entails, genius? Shes a middle man, pure and simple, living off the hard work of people who are desperate. Are you the girl? Because you sound awful defensive and trying really really hard to paint what she does ins the rosiest light. Your description is a laughable joke. WTF do you "E-Discovery" is? Who do you think is employed for "E-Discovery"??

      "In fact e-discovery is so huge that most people in the field, aside from doc reviewers, make good money"

      yes, BECAUSE THEY ARE RENT SEEKING SCUMBAGS. ANd they make that much money because:

      "so many students with so much debt, that lawyers are now willing to fight for $20/hour doc review gigs that last a week."

      You are extremely ignorant and represent so much with what is wrong in this industry. This is why things never change - because of the cluelessness of people like you. Now tell me more about what a wonderful thing that e-discovery parasitic businesses and their recruiters are. I'll try not to laugh.


      Delete
    13. You were “involved in it when it first started 15 years ago”? When it started, 15 years ago? This is laughable. I'd return you the favor of calling you ignorant but that word wouldn't do justice to your nonsense.

      What do I think e-discovery is? I think it's a field that involves, in addition to document review, information management and preservation, data collection and forensics, processing, hosting, analytics, litigation, etc. It's a field that employs attorneys, project managers, hardware engineers, software engineers, consultants, data analytics experts.

      Now compare this to what you think e-discovery is: a field made up entirely of document review victims and the middle men that victimize them (pure and simple!). It's a 20 billion dollar industry built entirely on paying document review attorneys $25/hour instead of $50/hour.

      You have no clue what you are talking about. So ramble on all you want with your “people like you are the reason blah blah blah” bullshit. You sound like someone who was fired from a doc review and now wants to blame e-discovery (which you clearly know nothing about) for all of the evil in the world. Meanwhile you are apparently fine with law schools scamming thousands upon thousands of students, and creating a legal market that has turned attorneys into hungry dogs fighting for scraps. Have a happy holiday, bro. Please don't kill anyone.

      Delete
    14. Its a field that takes advantage of all those poor attorneys you were whining about (under conditions that almost always violate OSEA) and its a field that went against established law and got the ABA to approve foreign atty to work on their shitty projects. Or are you extremely dumb and don't understand the ramifications of doing this in guild that charges too much for entry and has far too many before foreign attorneys were allowed in?

      You're a f*cking idiot.

      And yeah, before 15 years ago (or thereabouts) doc review was not a big thing....thats what 1st year associates were for.

      And yes, E-discovery is many things, you simplistic fool (learn how to carry a conversation....need I explain every variant of every little thing we're discussing? This is what people resort to when their arguments are failing)....but here we were discussing this woman and her role in managing doc reviewers that she admitted to. Next you'll tell me she didn't because you're just that kind of ass.

      And another sign of your simplistic idiocy....I blame e-discovery for all that is wrong in the world? Really? I don't think schools and the ABA also carry a large share of the blame? How old are you? 12? Just like I said three times now -- you're an idiot. We were discussing e-discovery and the scumbag Jamie Weisglass. Learn how to follow a simple argument before continuing....dumb f*ck. Do you know how to hold more than one idea in that thick skull? Again, you're everything thats wrong in this industry...ignorant and think in black and white.

      And no, f*ckwad....I managed the first few doc review projects in my large firm as an associate. And it was horrible and the people we hired were taken advantage of.....badly. (And I got out of it as fast as I figured out what was going on...I have conscience unlike you.....you pathetic shill). Or are you still clinging to the laughable idea that being a doc reviewer was once a desirable postion? Idiot.

      Delete
  25. @4:55 PM--I think anyone who is happy to have their job these days could be described similarly. The problems with job availability and long term career prospects aren't just limited to lawyers, although it is pronounced in this field because of the supposed prestige of being a lawyer, the myths about how much money we make, the law school scam, etc.

    I know lots of people who are struggling--lawyers, real estate agents, airplane pilots (a field which used to pretty much guarantee job security and a six figure income--these days, not so much), architects, etc.

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  26. BamBam, what is happening to airline pilots these days? I remember back in the day, I used to run into a pilot whenever I would go to Brazil. He was making $180K a year and he only had to fly 6 times a month for Delta Airlines. The rest of the time we was on furlough traveling the world and banging the best whores in the world. He drove a BMW M5 and lived in White Plains, NY. At the time, I was working 70-80 hours a week to make $80K as a beaten down associate. I used to think pilots had a great life and awesome job [e.g. perks and benefits].

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flyingcheap/view/

      Delete
    2. Or go to Salon and look at the blog 'Ask the Pilot'.

      Delete
  27. With the big supply demand imbalance there is a very significant risk of being unemployed long term eveb with a top law degree. That is a change. No one expected significant unemployment coming from T8 law schools. With a school below the T14 there is a huge risk of unemployment. The problems will not be fixed in the lifetime of any current lawyer. If you can get out of this to a decent job, you are better off than staying in.

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  28. Pilots are an example of a career where structural forces swamp personal skill and initiative.

    The biggest factor in a pilot's career is whether the Air Force or other carriers are reducing their forces at the time the pilot finishes flight training and goes on the market. Too many guys with decent experience, and new pilots are making $20,000 a year flying for a regional.

    If a pilot lands a job, every aspect of his career progression is governed by seniority and, if the airline is union, the collective bargaining agreement. You're a better pilot than Maverick? Too bad. You fly between St. Louis and Kansas City twice a day.

    Like old school law, once a pilot is hired, there are powerful incentives to stay at the same carrier. The biggest is that a pilot who switches carriers loses all of his seniority. A 15-year pilot can be bumped down to the eqivalent of a 1L.

    God forbid a pilot's employer goes out of business. Then it's back to pounding the pavement, hustling for a job against kids right out of flight school. The pilot may also have to pay out of pocket to be rated on a different aircraft type.

    So, yeah, a 52-year-old pilot can find himself making $23,000 years at Rocky Mountain Air, and it has absolutely nothing to do with his skills.

    I'm sure they're told to network more.

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  29. @ 9:14 PM--a friend of mine is a pilot but hasn't been able to find anything steady and long term. He'll work for a while with one employer, then get laid off, then it will take a few months to find another gig. I gather a long term career with a major airline is the way to go, but that can be hard to secure.

    Plus with the uncertainty re: defense spending cuts, carriers are cautious about taking on new expenses.

    It's like law practice in that yes, some people do make excellent money, but not everyone does (and more fit into the later category than the general public believes).

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  30. "Its future may be that of a finishing school for the children of the rich."

    That is what is already has been for the most part. That's why its a scam for those who are not members of the Preferred, Protected and or Connected classes. God bless!

    ReplyDelete
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