If your law school continues to give out materially false employment numbers to prospective students whose applications you solicit, that fact will be noted here and reported to the ABA.
On Dec 10, 2012, at 4:22 PM, "bpierpont@mail.barry.edu" <bpierpont@mail.barry.edu> wrote:
Dear [ ]:
If you apply to Barry Law by December 18 for the January 2013 semester, you will automatically be considered for a Dean’s Award Grant in addition to any merit based scholarship you may receive. We can use your December LSAT score for consideration for the January 2013 class. Barry Law does not charge an application fee, so apply today! http://www.barry.edu/law/future-students/admissions/
If you are interested in taking a tour of Barry Law and meeting with the Admissions staff, please reply to this email. More information can be found on our website at: http://www.barry.edu/law/future-students/admissions/tour.html
We look forward to working with you throughout the application process.
Sincerely,
Bethany A. Pierpont, Esq.
Director of Admissions
Barry University School of Law
Bethany,In order to consider applying to your law school I would need employment information of your most recent graduating class. What percentage of graduates obtained employment that required a JD of your most recent graduating class?Thanks,
From: Pierpont, Bethany A <BPierpont@mail.barry.edu>
Date: Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 9:30 AM
Subject: RE: Dean's Award Grants Still Available at Barry Law
To:
[ ],65% of the graduating class of 2011 obtained employment that required a JD within 9 months of graduation. We do not have the numbers for the 2012 graduating class yet as it has not yet been 9 months since they graduated.Please let me know if you have any further questions.
Take care.Bethany A. Pierpont, Esq.Director of AdmissionsBarry University School of Law
Barry Law School Class of 2011 Employment Statistics as reported to the ABA:
Employed, Bar Passage Required: 93/209 (44.5%)
Employed Full Time Bar Passage Required: 87/209 (41.6%)
Employed Full Time Long-Term Bar Passage Required: 82/209 (39.3%)
Update
The prospective student who Barry emailed received this followup:
Update
The prospective student who Barry emailed received this followup:
Dear [ ],
I’m very sorry, the
employment number I quoted earlier is incorrect. I answer hundreds of emails
each day and I made a mistake on my response to you. Barry’s employment
statistics, which include all of the categories of employment, are displayed in
the attached detailed report. The report is also available on our website, at http://www.barry.edu/law/future-students/career-services/employment-data.html
(then click on JD Class of 2011 Employment Profile). Again, I truly apologize.
Bethany A.
Pierpont, Esq.
Director of
Admissions
Barry University
School of Law
-- Michael Lewis, The Big Short --Danny thought the vast majority of people in the industry were blinded by their interests and failed to see the risks they had created. Vinny, always darker, said, 'There were more morons than crooks, but the crooks were higher up.'
http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/2010/06/overflowing-obsure-toilet-barry.html
ReplyDeleteThe picture accurately describes one's future, after attending this school.
Please update if the prospective sends a followup email to Bethany pointing out the discrepancy between her #s and those reported to the ABA!
ReplyDeleteStill no fraud, because...well, I don't know, it's just NOT you should have known better obviously false statistic just set up a solo shop employment stats aren't material so what if they lied? you went to law school for an education not a job because I like finding facts and giving long-winded blowhard answers these people gave me a plaque and a professorship so they can't be bad.
ReplyDelete-American Judiciary
B. Mcleod, what's up dude?
DeleteThat's nothing like his writing style.
DeleteI don't know who you mean by B. Mcleod. I use the "Doc" name when commenting. Same one who's commented in this space before.
DeleteHe's talking about a long-term, frequent commenter over at the abajournal online mag-rag, who goes by "B.McLeod".
DeleteAs I said above, what you wrote is not really similar to his style.
I have successfully tried 11 jury cases in a 20 year career. The rules of professional responsibility prohibit me from advertising that I won each trial, therefore, being undefeated. Yes, the rules, as applied to lawyers, prevent you from advertising the truth. Yet these sonsofbitches (i.e., law school deans, administrators and professors) can lie with impunity about employment outcomes. If this doesn't tell you how screwed up this profession is, you are welcome to waste 3 years of law school to join it.
ReplyDeleteI feel you.
DeleteExcellent, Law Prof,
ReplyDeleteI noticed Bethany was an 'Esq.' Couldn't she also be reported to the local bar?
Bethany, Bethany, how could you? Think of the values of honor and fair dealing that you learned at your law school alma mater, Thomas Cooley?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.linkedin.com/in/bethanypierpont
dybbuk
yikes, really? she must be one of their big success stories.
DeleteI wonder how much her job pays.
DeletePerhaps she got a full "scholarship" from Cooley on account of her LSAT score. Until a year or so ago, they gave a full "honors" "scholarship" to anyone with an LSAT score of, as I recall, 163 (or an even lower score for people from Michigan). Now they're no longer so generous in their bid to buy their way up the You Ass News ladder.
No doubt the director of admissions even at this fifth-tier toilet is grossly overpaid, but I suspect that she'd have trouble covering her student loans on her salary if she didn't get a fat discount from Cooley.
They SHOULD stop the program. Buying LSAT scores might make sense for the T25-T50 schools, but Cooley won't exit the 4th tier even if they start giving EVERYONE free tuition. "Reputational" surveys are too big a factor - and the Cooley name is just so toxic.
DeleteBesides which they will never draw the best students.
DeleteShe graduate Cooley in 2005 and then they directly hired her, where she worked 5 years before taking employment at Barry. So she got a law degree and never worked as a lawyer. I am curious if she passed the bar, or even tried to.
Delete@ 6:04, yes, she passed the bar.
DeleteGotta love how the number of exclamation points drops once the prospect starts asking hard questions --
ReplyDeleteWell, it looks like pursuing this "transparency" thing is starting to show some results!
ReplyDeleteHow can you juice your stats by 20 points and not expect to be called on it?
ReplyDeleteExpect some attempt to argue that there's a difference between bar admission required and JD required jobs. This might be true in a very small set of circumstances (federal law clerk comes to mind). But other than that, it's almost impossible to think of a JD required job that doesn't require admission to the bar.
Perhaps they count the graduates they employ themselves as "JD required" even though bar passage is not required.
Delete^^^^
DeleteIs this a joke?
Barry doesn't employ ANY of its graduates - despite the fact that 9 months post-graduation, nearly 40% of them do not have any employment whatsoever.
Academic law librarians usually are required to have a JD, but bar admissions is not required. It's unlikely that Barry had a ton of graduates become law librarians (if even 1), but it is another job that requires the degree but not bar passage.
DeleteI did not realize that Barry did not hire its own graduates. I was making assumptions based on how widespread the practice is among toilet law schools.
DeleteHonestly, before today I had never heard of Barry at all.
The practice of hiring their own graduates is actually not very common among "toilet" law schools, unless you are counting lots of the traditional "first tier" schools as toilets. The practice seems to be most common at schools ranked between 4 and 25, where they like to maintain close to a 100% "employed" rate.
DeleteDiploma mill law schools don't have the revenue to juice their employment numbers to hire their own graduates, and even if they did it wouldn't matter under the USN racket.
DeleteMany of the traditional "first-tier" schools are toilets.
DeleteIt's interesting that the director of admissions is (supposedly) personally answering routine inquiries. Doesn't she have minions to do that sort of thing?
ReplyDeleteBy the way, here's a little lesson: Never apply to a law school that doesn't charge applicants a fee.
We should also move away from asking about "jobs requiring a JD". Before long the law schools will require a JD of every clerk in their admissions office, in a desperate attempt to puff up their data.
ReplyDeleteThere is absolutely no combination of employed graduates that permits Ms. Pierpoint, Esquire to get to the answer she provided.
ReplyDeleteEven if you take absolutely everyone employed in absolutely any fashion - FT/PT/LT/ST, whether Lawyer, "JD Preferred", "Professional", Dunkin Donuts, Costumed Disney Cartoon Character, and Swabby Passing Out Fish Chunks At Feed-The-Dolphins Exhibit At Seaworld, you can't get over 60%.
And more importantly, out of 209 grads, Barry reported to ABA that 79 were FULLY UNEMPLOYED or status unknown (7 of the 79).
Anyone else following this Brandon Lincoln Woodard story? So this guy has what appears as a serious criminal history and he's enrolled in law school?
ReplyDeleteIs that how desperate the schools are now?
Was this guy a convicted felon or was he just arrested for a bunch of stuff?
DeleteCan you be denied admission to bar/law school based on arrests that did not result in convictions?
Not that it matters, as the LS quality and standards train sailed away a long time ago, but just curious.
Not 9:06 but I've seen the story. Guy had a rap sheet as long as your arm, and yes, there were convictions.
DeleteStill, that doesn't stop a LS from entering them.
There have been a number of cases (years ago) where a law grad eventually denied bar eligibility sued his school for admitting him. The basis of suits generally was, "if I was never going to get a license, it wasn't fair for you to admit me and take my money".
The schools' answers, in each case I know of sufficient to win the day, included (a) "but WE don't know exactly what the state you will seek to be barred in will or will not permit in your background"; and (b) (this one will sound familiar) "some people go to law school for the education and intending to do "other things" with their law degree than the practice of law".
Thanks 11:48. I dont what to say anymore. At this point, I just have to believe that certain powers want to destroy whatever semblance of pride remains for the legal profession
DeleteYour correspondent should ask Bethany to confirm that 65% of its graduates are making above a $125K salary, too!
ReplyDelete(Inasmuch as they have always refused to release ANY of their NALP salary data.)
Check out entering class sizes- year-on-year it's increased.
ReplyDelete2014 entering class is 267 new 1Ls.
Zowie!
I gotsta open me a Law School!
It gets better.
DeleteBarry's Standards of Admission:
# of students, Class of 2014: 267
# of students, Class of 2015: 296
Median LSAT for Class of 2014: 149
Median LSAT for Class of 2015: 147
Graph / source
Milking that cash cow.
DeleteI think you mean f***ing the cash cow.
Deletemy sister got admitted with a 138 lsat for the august 12 class. her gpa was decent tho
DeletePierpont's assertion:
ReplyDelete- "65% of the graduating class of 2011 obtained employment that required a JD within 9 months of graduation. "
This is a correct statement viewed in isolation outside the actual context of the 0L's question, if you take "the graduating class of 2011" to mean:
"The graduating class of 2011 of all ABA-accredited law schools reporting into NALP."
Noting that this is exactly the percentage reported by NALP for 2011 overall.
I am willing to bet Paul's left lugnut that, if called on the question, this will be Ms. Pierpont, Esquire's squirrely deposition-style explanation for her answer.
Since that statement of hers was offered in response to a clear question about "your most recent graduating class" (emphasis mine) in a context that just as clearly pertained to her particular law school, I wouldn't fancy her chances of succeeding with that explanation.
DeleteWell, can't say I fancy her chances of success myself.
DeleteStill, that doesn't stop me from betting LP's body parts that she'd try to make that argument.
It really comes down to what the exactly legal definition of "is" is, yaknow?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteHere's some information about this stinking dump. (By the way, why is it that a Web site that goes by the name "Top Law Schools" focuses on the Barrys and the Cooleys and the Touros?)
ReplyDeletehttp://www.top-law-schools.com/barry-university-law.html
A few chestnuts:
"The class of 2015 had median GPAs and LSAT scores of 2.92 and 147." That LSAT score is at the thirty-third percentile.
"In 2011, Barry Law graduates who took out loans (90% of the class) incurred an average of $137,680 in debt." How many of these people, the great majority of graduates, make enough to be able to keep up the payments on that debt? Let's see:
"According to Law School Transparency, only about 39% of 2011 Barry grads had a long-term, full-time legal job (requiring bar passage) nine months after graduation. That's 82 out of 209 graduates. Three were pursuing further education, and the employment status of seven was unknown. The school does not report current salary distributions, but according to U.S. News, the 25th percentile, median, and 75th percentile for private-sector starting salaries for the class of 2010 were $40,000, $45,000, and $58,000 (69% reporting)."
One would have to be a screaming idiot to attend this revolting toilet of a law school.
To state the obvious, this is fraud. You have a very specific representatin to a specific potential applicant who advised the school in advance that she considered the answer material. More importantly, if Bethany, Esquire, had such an exchange with someone who put down actual yankee dollars to attend Barry, it will be very difficult for some judge to dismiss the complaint on the "you never should have relied on a representation to the USNWR swimsuit edition rational."
ReplyDeleteRPL
"...potential applicant who advised the school in advance that she considered the answer material."
DeleteHoly Advice Of Counsel, Batman!
I skipped over that aspect. Thanks for pointing it out.
It's almost as if she had advice in advance as to what all should be included in her question...?
ITS A TRAP!!!
DeleteThanks for the sensible critique. Me and my neighbor were just preparing to do a little research
ReplyDeleteon this. We got a grab a book from our local library but I
think I learned more from this post.
I'm very glad to see such magnificent info being shared freely
out there.
Also visit my homepage ; www.ktotv.com
I don't think I'll be "visiting the homepage" of anyone who writes "Me and my neighbor were just preparing."
Delete
DeleteThanks all here - spit-on-screen laughter.
DeleteFun fact. Barry's Career Services page offers the real numbers:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.barry.edu/includes/docs/law/JDEmploymentProfile2011.pdf
Barry Law School? We already have a law school named after a sitting president?
ReplyDeleteThe name comes from a graffito by one of their students, who meant to write "Bury law school" but couldn't spell.
DeleteI know a dude named Barry. Decent attorney, didn't know he had his own law school now. Must have hit a rough patch practicing and decided to retire early and let those student loan checks roll in...
Delete"I know a dude named Barry".
DeleteMy dentist is named Barry.
Aren't all dentists named Barry?
It's not Barry Law School. It's Barely Law School....
Delete@11:18 et seq.
ReplyDeleteAnd I suppose you'll expect me to believe that you have not noticed that one of our frequent posters has conspicuously absented himself from today's discussion?
http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2012/12/supply-or-demand.html?showComment=1355237803703#c8356581978205478639
http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2012/12/who-knows-what-they-owe_9.html?showComment=1355165892702#c463302543962712108
Might there be some connection? Hmmmm?
(For Evil Laugh Click Here, goto and turn up speakers loud)
There is not. I rarely comment.
DeleteYeah but did you check the Evil Laugh?
DeleteThe rest of the comment was just a poorly camouflaged excuse to get that in.
Thanks - my kids all love the evil laugh.
DeleteVery rarely do I get fired up as some here, but wow. How does Pierpont sleep at night? Going to Barry would ruin poor Bethany's life, and Pierpont just attempted to manipulate her into doing so.
ReplyDeleteNote the 0L is anon.
DeleteBethany is Pierpont.
In what I do there is defintely a drop on demand. Documents have been standardized so you only need one lawyer for thousands or evev hundreds of thousands of businesses. Non legal people do a lot of the work. Associations have been set up to educate non lawyers on new developments. The lawyers speak for free hoping to get new business. Consultants can get work more easily than lawyers as they are not subject to anti solicitation rules that the lawyers codes of professional responsibility impose on lawyers. Worse yet, with decrease in demand and further decrease likely BigLaw keeps training new lawyers in the area while there is a growing pool of underemployed solos and unemployed lawyers who were formerly in BigLaw.
ReplyDelete"Associations have been set up to educate non lawyers ... lawyers speak for free hoping to get new business. "
DeleteAnd the Latin term for this is "cutting your own throat".
Comment above was for the DJM supply demand post, not this one, sorry. Sent it on a cell in the dark.
DeleteReferring to a graduate school as a "toilet school" is incredibly disrespectful and shows little to no class from those of you "distinguished" "elite" law school graduates. I don't know anything about Barry but they are accredited and deserve respect like all other ABA accredited law schools.
ReplyDeleteVery droll.
Delete"they are accredited and deserve respect like all other ABA accredited law schools. "
DeleteWhy?
Since when is ABA accreditation worthy of respect? The goddamn ABA hands it out like breath mints.
DeleteWe're talking about a school whose median student fell into the bottom THIRD on the LSAT. One where 90% of the class borrows money to attend—on average $140k per person (not counting initiation fees, interest, and of course penalties for failing to make the payments). Where only 39% of the class finds a job requiring a JD within nine months of graduation. Where the director of admissions (a graduate of the esteemed we-have-a-baseball-stadium-named-after-us Cooley, whose own rankings place it second among all law schools in the US) lies brazenly about employment prospects, contradicting even the data published at her school's own Web site.
Perhaps "toilet" is indeed an inaccurate description. I'm more inclined to call it a shit heap.
I think "very droll" read the meaning correctly.
DeleteLOL, most of the people on this page consider their OWN law school a "toilet." The term refers to the law school, not the students there.
DeleteSounds like a planted comment from their Dean.
DeleteIt appears to me that the problem is not the pyramid scheme that the bottom 100 or so law schools employ as their modus operandi, but rather the easy availability of federal tax dollars to subsidize (or guarantee) federal loans for such useless endeavors. If federal loans were less freely available, such pyramid schemes would not be long for this world. Ultimately, there is no argument that some critical mass of lawyers need to be created every year. Rather, it should simply not be so easy to borrow to pay for it. Those that still want to attend such schools as Barry, or Cooley, or the 100 or so others that have pitiful employment outcome, should get loans directly from the school or from private lender. Then those entities can send their goons in to collect (or bust knee caps). The free market would thus kill off these unfortunate schools. (But ultimately, people should be free to be stupid, uninformed, and borrow private dollars to fund their lunacy, whether it be law school, lottery tickets, or tupperware sales leads...).
ReplyDeleteYou're an elitist snob. How can you possibly tell the stupid children that they cannot be lawyers, or suggest that Uncle Sam have discipline? Go back to Russia, pinko! This is America, land of the free, enabled by borrowed tax dollars thrown at rent-seeking market participants.
Delete"Those that still want to attend such schools as Barry, or Cooley, or the [[delete: 100 or so others]] [[Insert: 170 or so others]] that have pitiful employment outcome, should get loans directly from "
DeleteThere, ftfy.
Agreed that I am a pinko free marketeer (an oxymoron of course). I still think federal loans should be available -- but easier to get if you should choose to go to Harvard and harder to get if you choose to go to Barry, for example. Other variables in such a metric could include your prior loan performance, your anticipated loan amount, and the performance of prior loan recipients at that school....
DeleteBlast form the past. It's like something from Animal House. Villanova spikes it's LSAT and GPA data for, what, 8 years running?
ReplyDeleteAALS puts them on double secret probation for 2 years. (Last year the ABA came out with it's verdict and punishment: Censure. "BAD DOG! Don't do it again!")
http://www.law.villanova.edu/About%20VLS/AALS%20Executive%20Committee%20Decision.aspx
Prof. Campos, what do you think of rescaling the LSAT to indicate percentile? "To be competitive at Bumblefuck, you need an LSAT score of 147" covers a multitude of sins. Instead, force them to state it this way: "To be competitive at Bumblefuck, you have to score no lower than the 33d percentile." Everyone, including people who know nothing about law school, would see immediately that the place is a toilet.
ReplyDeleteAll that this would require is a rescaling of the LSAT: instead of reporting the score from 120 to 180, give the percentile, from 0 to 99.
I’m very sorry, the number I quoted is incorrect and I truly apologize for my mistake. I have contacted the prospective student and have provided him with all the specific categories of employment data. I answer hundreds of emails each day and I made a mistake on the response sent to this student. Our employment statistics, which include all of the categories of employment, are displayed in a detailed report on our website, at http://www.barry.edu/law/future-students/career-services/employment-data.html (then click on JD Class of 2011 Employment Profile). Again, I truly apologize.
ReplyDeleteBethany Pierpont, Director of Admissions
Interestingly enough though your number made the law school look 47% better than it was, rather than going 47% the other way and saying that only 23% of the JD Class of 2011 achieved jobs that required bar passage. Why was that?
DeleteThe really surprising thing is that out of hundreds of emails a day, apparently this one was "new to her" and she "forgot" that Barry's FT lawyer employment rate is 39% instead of the national average of 65%?
DeleteHuh. Who'da thunkit. I'da thunk instead that this would be one statistic that she was asked for over and over again in her hundreds of emails a day.
Instead, the question of employment outcomes is apparently either unique or uncommon enough that it surprised her and she made a "mistake"?
It Was All Just A Big Misunderstanding!!
ReplyDeleteA few minor points to those of you who, as the poster above noted, consider yourselves to be elite law school graduates.
ReplyDelete1. WE ARE IN A RECESSION! Employment at graduation numbers likely have fallen across the board with some obvious exceptions for the Ivy League and those distinguished alma maters which I am sure most of you inconsiderate, sharp-tongued fools likely hail from. (Yes I ended a sentences with a preposition. Deliberately.)
2. Barry is located in Orlando, Florida. Its not exactly a booming legal market in the way that major metropolitan areas such as Boston or New York City are. Consider where the best and/or highest ranked law schools are located. They come from NY, PA, MA, and other states that have--you guessed it--coordinately large metropolitan areas conducive to a large legal market. Larger markets permit higher employment rates, or (at the very least) more employment opportunities. Its geography.
3. I would have expected that those of you who are so outraged by this would have found it prudent to consider locale and market availability before jumping to ad homonym attacks based on a single inquiry from someone WHO LIED ABOUT HIS/HER OWN IDENTITY IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Keep in mind the "prospect" must have deceived the director of admissions in the first place in order to elicit information from her. S/he must have materially and falsely represented himself/herself as a prospective student who was interested in attending the school. Who is deceiving who? I really hope that this "prospect" is not a lawyer because if that is the case, then I believe that would justify a call to his/her state bar. But then again, there is no way to tell, because this "prospect" redacted his/her name and there is no way to trace it. Anonymity serves the deceitful rather well, doesn't it? (Obviously recognizing the inherent hipocrisy in calling another out on the latter's anonymity through an anonymous post.)
And before you people reply to this post and continue with the incessant name-calling and pathos-driven baseless and illogical arguments, perhaps you should consider that not everyone is as privileged as those of us who have attended T1 schools. As a graduate from one of those schools, I am one of the few who recognizes that the legal profession at large is an elitist industry, only mildly populated by those who received an education from a world-renowned educational institution, yet largely populated by those who did not. Barry and other T3 and T4 schools are necessary to the profession and they do all of us a service.
I trust that all previous posters and future readers will at least consider their words more wisely and perhaps even reevaluate their own perspectives rather than blindly following the verbal diarrhea promulgated by a handful of armchair quarterbacks masquerading as interested parties.
"Yes I ended a sentences with a preposition. Deliberately."
DeleteIs the number confusion also deliberate?
" jumping to ad homonym attacks"
DeleteSnicker.
I suppose that was deliberate, too?
"attacks based on a single inquiry from someone WHO LIED ABOUT HIS/HER OWN IDENTITY IN THE FIRST PLACE."
DeleteI suppose, counselor, that you have some evidence to support this conclusory allegation?
If so, could you please provide such?
"2. Barry is located in Orlando, Florida. Its not exactly a booming legal market in the way that major metropolitan areas"
DeleteIsn't this all the more reason for Barry to be called on the carpet for (i.a.) lying about employment outcomes, serially increasing the size of its classes, and raising tuition to the point where 90% of its students are over $120K in debt upon receiving a degree that Barry well knows won't get them a job?
As someone who is familar with the central FL legal market...I'm pretty comfortable calling Barry a dump. Always has been. Even its grads have little regard for it. FL has UF and FSU law schools, there is simply no need for Barry other than as a source of cheap cash for who or whatever owns the place.
Delete"Keep in mind the "prospect" must have deceived the director of admissions in the first place in order to elicit information from her. S/he must have materially and falsely represented himself/herself as a prospective student who was interested in attending the school."
DeleteStruggle with reading comp, doncha?
Go back and look at the exchange. It appears to be a standard form solicitation email from Barry to recent LSAT takers.
There's not one jot nor tittle of evidence to support your allegation. What we have in front of us, if viewed clearly by someone capable of comprehending what s/he sees, favors the opposite conclusion.
"recognizing the inherent hipocrisy"
DeleteOh Jeeze, I suppose that was also "deliberate"?
"I am one of the few who recognizes that the legal profession at large is an elitist industry, only mildly populated by those who received an education from a world-renowned educational institution, yet largely populated by those who did not. "
DeleteOh my, but you are a good special snowflake, aren't you?
But seriously - what precisely does "mildly" "populated" mean?
Thanks!
@ Anonymous 3:01 who writes, "Anonymity serves the deceitful rather well, doesn't it? "
DeleteWhat's that phrase?
Oh yeah - sometimes the irony is so thick you can cut it with a knife.
We seem to have a different opinion of elitist. I think it is elitist to frivolously put yourself tens of thousands of dollars into debt and waste three years of your life on an investment that offers worse odds than blackjack. I think it is elitist to assume that somebody can't raise their LSAT score, therefore that person has to attend a T3 or T4 at sticker. I think it is elitist to pay yourself hundreds of thousands of dollars and ignore or downplay the plight of your indebted, jobless students or suggest they shove their debt onto the taxpayer.
DeleteOh, and it's "elitist" to think that going to a Tier 1 law school is such a big deal. Have you looked at the placement rates for American lately?
"I really hope that this "prospect" is not a lawyer because if that is the case, then I believe that would justify a call to his/her state bar. But then again, there is no way to tell, because this "prospect" redacted his/her name and there is no way to trace it."
DeleteWow.
Are you really this obtuse?
Is it intentional?
"perhaps you should consider that not everyone is as privileged as those of us who have attended T1 schools."
DeleteYou are right. Some of us didn't go to T1 law schools. Some of us went to Engineering schools.
"I'm a peeping tom techie with x-ray eyes. Future's so bright, I got to wear shades."
Wow, 3:01, I don't think I've ever seen such a great example of someone getting his ass handed to him on a platter. You've really brought that phrase to life for me. Thanks for the entertainment.
Delete@ 5:52 - is patent law still doing okay?
DeleteMs. Pierpont, can you cite to one example where a law school administrator cited a number by mistake which was adverse to the school? Why is that every time a law school administrator claims to make a mistake, the error always favors the school?
ReplyDeleteJohn Q. Public
It's because God Loves Law Schools, you fool.
DeleteOne cheer for Ms. Pierpont for at least having the guts to come on here and apologize.
Delete^^^^^
DeleteDoes anyone actually believe that was her?
CYA stunt. She was caught.
DeleteDoes anybody think that she'll be fired?
Delete"Does anybody think that she'll be fired?"
DeleteShirley you jest!
Maybe, and in the end, the Lawprofs and DJM's, of every kind and scale and scope, be they good Lawprofs or bad Lawprofs, will all end up in a big historical pool of commenters on the human applause meter.
ReplyDeleteThis blog will get a few notches on said meter, and maybe a bronze medal in the end, having given up a few points for being paid while they complain about the hand that feeds them.
Nando will walk away with the gold, and the silver will go to Elie Mystal.
As Big Daddy said:
"Mendacity is the system we live in."
I recommend watching the entire scene because SL debt has been decreed to be carried for life. But technology has not yet yet been able to make people live forever, or force them to live forever so as to pay off outrageously blatant usury.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ncFrg9afa8
Alexis DeTocqueville would probably just nod his head and agree.
Johnny, go git yerself another beer.
DeleteI also predict that a huge Religious revival movement will take place as the millions of lives and dreams that heve been destroyed by the current American student lending system will seek spiritual sustenance in the hope of another and better life in the hereafter free of soul destroying and dream destroying debt.
ReplyDeleteThe natural inclination of man is to take away his neighbor's freedom.
That seems to be a constant and hence the bankruptcy rights were taken away.
It is actually a simple thing to understand and Brian Leiter is kind of like a carrier Pigeon on a cyclone fence,and not sure if he should take off with his money, or stay and argue about ethics and etc.
Leiter gets the tin medal for fourth BTW.
The fifth place medal is aluminum and goes to gues who?
And the sixth and seventh place medals are for....
oh well. Every kid gets a trophy and is special by now.
Re: Eric Bogle's song, and the horror of the American student lending system and the forced emigration (call it diaspora if you like) of Americans with no human rights bankruptcy protections against the economically oppressive lenders:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne0exwHzPFo
The Human capital concept and the promise that it will all pay off over 30 or so years is pure bullshit.
fuck this 4th tier toilet. why even entertain such bullshit emails?
ReplyDeleteWait wait all of you. As a grad of this institution let me give you an insider view of what matters. It's not fraud it's just not full disclosure.
ReplyDeleteFirst this used to be an unaccredited for-profit school that was put up for sale in a bidding war against Barry in Miami, Rollins in Orlando, UCF in Orlando, and a few others if memory serves me. The nuns that run Miami Barry always wanted to have a law school so they bid way more money than anyone else. As part of the deal they also named the "library" after the guy they bought the school from. That way we've sealed in the awesomeness of being next to a stray rooster that was attached the double wide trailer on the other side of the property fence.
Second after barely managing to survive the bidding process they had to get accredited by the ABA so they got a dean to specifically get the school up to ABA code. If my memory serves me right there was a class of "lawyers" who went through the school during this transition that I believe didn't get properly credentialed to sit for the bar and had to retake classes. After accreditation they switched deans again.
Third after accreditation the main campus realized how much of a cash cow they had and so they bumped up tuition significantly and increased the class size significantly (this was around 2009-10 if memory serves). We were the highest priced school in the state with the worst ranking and the lowest bar passage rate.
We lost people from Barry to Florida Coastal. The smart money transferred to cheaper or more prestigious schools as soon as they could, while the dumb money stayed for the whole movie.
After they got ABA accreditation they literally accepted so many people we didnt have enough parking spaces on the campus during the day time so we had to borrow spots in the surrounding neighborhood and were encouraged to car pool or use public transportation which was inconvenient as all hell (the campus used to be a drive-in movie theater which explains the layout for those of you who google map it). They literally had the asphalt designed in a way that encouraged you to drive around and out rather than stay there because honestly why would you?
The huge influx of cash cows I mean students meant they also didn't have the physical space for them. So then the admin caved to professor pressure and added a couple of trailers with 100 people capacity to the campus because they were funneling all of the money to the main campus down in Miami and couldnt afford buildings.
If I remember correctly the trailers were still there as of my graduation, before I left to go back west, but there were rumors they may add building with actual concrete foundations.
There were some truly awesome professors and great students at the school so I think it gets a bum rap on that front but it was pretty clear that the admins were a bunch of blood sucking leeches that were only concerned with getting their own piece.
Alot of the best professors would stay for a year or two before they left for greener pastures leaving only the most dedicated professors who were all in with the school come hell or high water whether it was because of location or faith (and many of these were still awesome).
These administrators were just pure profiting off of everyone's debt. Im talking good six figure salaries, the dean was rumored to be making more than 200K maybe up to 500K, and had perks like international "study abroad trips" without any actual attempt to make the experience better for students and the professors that were caught in the racket. The big selling point was that they added a "student lounge" by giving us each our own physical mailbox that was a hanging file folder that anyone could put materials in with 3 tables and a few "lounge" chairs with a tv that didn't get cable and we didn't have time to use anyway.
The problem is that with this post and others putting Barry in the disposable trash heap, it just hurts the credentials of alums.
Wait, you just wrote however many paragraphs exposing what a dump this place is, and you're still worried about tarnishing your "credential"?
DeleteThey don't have up-to-date numbers on Guidestar, but in their 2000 IRS forms the Dean was pulling 120K.
Deletehttp://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2000/650/899/2000-650899586-1-9.pdf
@ 9:07 PM
DeleteAfter it appeared on Third Tier Reality, LawProf, here and other worst of lists do you really think it matters at this point what a former student says?
Don't pick on him. What I take from his diatribe is that, in his opinion, yes the physical plant is a dump and the administration are snakes, but he feels he had good profs and got a good education.
DeleteAnd who knows? That may well be the case.
It's not like the materials taught in law school differ wildly as from tier-to-tier.
The biggest problem with a highly credentialed student in a place like Barry is the fact that there's really no competition for them.
From what I understand, a lot of these ultra-low ranked schools are more like cram schools, where the student spend three years cramming/memorizing information to help them pass the bar. Top schools teach more theory and concepts, all tests are open book, etc. So I think the law as taught between tiers probably is pretty different. (I mean, it would have been nice not to have to take BarBri to learn the rule against perpetuities and all, but...)
DeleteThe admissions staff there are actually cleverer than many. Most colleges would give the standard 90%+ figure. 65% though actually sounds plausible. Of course how do we know that even the 40% figure reported to ABA is accurate? The true numbers could be even lower.
ReplyDeleteThe other day I was on linkedin browsing through my graduating class (2010) and noticed that the only 4 people with real attorney jobs were the 4 hot girls, who I tutored in several classes btw
ReplyDeleteWait, wait - weren't you supposed to put "tutored" in "air quotes"?
DeleteWinkie Winkie ;-) ;-)
I want to start getting these comments posted from higher tier schools. We had Michigan lying about the number of grads it hires ( though the perky Dean z protested her innocence, there is no reason she should not have had those numbers at her fingertips, and I believe she did, seeing how they were posted on the website soon after)
ReplyDeleteAll of the schools lie and misrepresent data on cost, debt and jobs. I believe they also misrepresent how useful their indidlvidual repayment plans are(LRAP ) . I have never seen any data on the actual number of students a school is helping.
I know Northwestern requires you to have a qualifying job at graduation. But that implies that it is possible to get these jobs. We know that they are the most competitive jobs to get. Same with Duke and Virginia I believe.
I wonder how many students go to these schos thinking - well if I don't get biglaw, I'll just go on LRAP and ill be fine with my six figure debt.
I meant schools!
DeleteRe: the update.
ReplyDeleteHas anyone EVER found a situation where a law school made an "honest mistake" where the school looked worse due to the mistake?
I know of one: Last spring John Marshall (Chicago) reported that the average amount borrowed for its 2011 class was $30,000 higher than it actually was.
DeleteAh, yes, the damning difference between "a ton" and "a ton plus $30k."
DeleteI bet whatever underling who reported that was canned for missing the memo.
C'mon, Doc, don't carp. You asked and got an answer.
DeleteLAW DEANS, LAW DEANS, WHAT YA GONNA DO?
ReplyDeleteWHAT YOU GONNA DO WHEN THEY...
COME FOR YOU?
remember, the wheels of justice move slowly, but they do grind fine....
"I’m very sorry, the employment number I quoted earlier is incorrect. I answer hundreds of emails each day and I made a mistake on my response to you. "
ReplyDeleteIs it within the bounds of reason to believe that of the hundreds of emails she gets each day, so few ask after employment that she (a) had to go look up a number strange to her and (b) looked up the wrong number?
Not knowing inconvenient and obvious facts is a skill that can be learned. Criminal defense lawyers, for example, are very good at not knowing where the money their clients pay them with comes from. Wall street bankers packaging mortgage loans into MBS were very good at not knowing that the mortgage brokers originating those 1/2 million loans to pool boys and manicurists were making up income figures. The dean of Rutgers camden was very good at not knowing that his school was reporting false information on his students' debt. Its a skill that can come in very handy.
ReplyDeletePlausible deniability - the favorite tactic of crony capitalism
DeleteI'm a 3L at Barry Law and I have found the Administration very supportive. I have worked with Bethany and her team and I can tell you they care about each student personally. Every administrator has an open-door policy with regards to issues or concerns students may have.
ReplyDeleteAs for what "Anonymous" posted about the campus experience, I cannot speak for what the campus was like prior to my enrolling, but we have one of the most beautiful campuses. Palm trees line the entryway, and there is a gorgeous fountain. We recently had a massive three story building constructed with state of the art equipment and more than five mock court rooms for trial preparation. Our trial team has won dozens of national trial competitions and I'd pit them against any school.
This school has done a lot for its alumni, and I've seen it first hand at the various alumni events they've hosted. While it may have been a difficult situation during the various transitional periods and while awaiting accreditation, it has exceeded my expectations and I am proud to go to Barry law. If you poll the local law firms that have hired hundreds of alums, you'll find they feel the same way.
"I cannot speak for what the campus was like prior to my enrolling, but we have one of the most beautiful campuses. Palm trees line the entryway, and there is a gorgeous fountain. "
DeleteOh come on now, now we know you're a flame.
Palm trees in Orlando - who's going to fall for that?
"We recently had a massive three story building constructed with state of the art equipment and more than five mock court rooms for trial preparation. Our trial team has won dozens of national trial competitions and I'd pit them against any school."
DeleteShiny building and top-notch trial/moot court squad. Alex, what are two tell-tale signs of a TTT Toilet charging 5x too much?
@ Rinaldo
ReplyDeleteThis is the same Anonymous. Only someone who is in marketing and sales could spew that kind of crap.
The problems weren't caused by a transition period and my money paid for those trees and building (they were buying em for like 2 grand a pop because they kept dying).
Yes they started to make "mock trial" rooms for the awesome trial team and moot court teams when I was there. This entailed adding wood paneling and nice fixtures to an existing space. But there are about 20 people on each of those teams for a class. They generally fare better employment wise because they get some skills and get hired for govt prosecutor's offices. So 20 people out of the 200+ per class. Those aren't great odds and what benefit does the non-trial team and moot court student get from helping pay for their classmate's success at the expense of their own? I.e. subsidizing a subset of the class rather than focus on improving the lot of the class in general?
Yes the water fountain at the front is beautiful.
Great story about that fountain. To get a tax credit so they could pocket more money, they made the library open to the public. In the area of Orlando that the school is located in, across from a garden pottery outlet on a major highway and surrounded by the aforementioned trailers, this meant that the "public" who came to the school were the homeless transients from nearby bus stops the city worked so hard to get rid of.
This meant that we had a bunch of former Barry grads, I mean homeless transients who would use the library to hang out in during the day, wash up in the bathroom, and generally panhandle on campus. I don't really care but it is rather distracting if you're trying to study.
When the fountain is working, really who cares the fountain isn't helping the US News ranking, the homeless people kept using it as a public bath. They had to get the security guys to keep shooing them off and quasi threaten them. After that they realized that if they shut off the water they would go away. Then they'd turn it back on and the word would spread the Barry Law Pool is open and they'd reappear. This cycle kept going for a while and I don't know where it finally ended.
Of course those open helpful admin people have an open door policy, the students pay their salaries. I've never seen a salesman greet someone who has money to get treat them gruffly you facetious shill.
Individual professors help their students. Not the school's admin. If the schools admin cared they'd actually do something. Like I said, I loved my professors, at least the few that remained because the turnover rate was pretty high (When I started my 1L year I had 6 core teachers, by my 3L year only 1 of those 6 was still there).
"my money paid for those trees and building (they were buying em for like 2 grand a pop because they kept dying)."
ReplyDeleteOh come on, now; now we know you're a flame.
Buildings can't die.
@ 11:43
DeleteOh sorry I should have clarified.
$2K per palm
$50K or something per trailer (I think it was higher but let's be charitable here)
$??? on that building but probably a couple of million.
They also upgraded the paint job around my 3L year because the stark white paint and windows were badly peeling due to the heat and neglect. There's a reason they don't show a picture of the front of the building during the daytime in the pics...only at night (which by the way don't wander around too much in that area at night that's dangerous).