Tuesday, October 9, 2012

A frank exchange of views



Dear Professor Campos,

I just read with much disappointment the article in the Business Insider, which attacks our efforts to begin a new law school in Fort Wayne, Indiana.  I am quite surprised that we are the only new law school that is being attacked when there are also new schools in Tennessee, Idaho, and Texas that have either opened this year or are slated to open with us next year. I believe that each person is entitled to his or her opinion on this topic, but I find your quote within that article to be outrageous and completely inappropriate.

In the piece, you are quoted as writing, "Chutzpah has been defined as murdering your parents and then pleading for mercy because you're an orphan…How about setting up another legal diploma mill in a hyper-saturated market, while claiming that what will set your school apart is its emphasis on 'ethics' and 'professionalism'?"

You have no idea about the details of our school. We are NOT a “diploma mill.” You have not read our Prospectus that details how the school will operate and what we intend to accomplish. Additionally, you have not taken the time to reach out to me to learn anything about the true mission and purpose of our school. Finally, to equate the opening of a law school with murdering one’s parents is reprehensible. You should be ashamed, but people who throw incendiary devices into conversations rarely have any shame. If you have any integrity, I would invite you to contact me before you misrepresent the mission and purpose of our law school any further.

I would invite you to be more professional in the future and do your homework before you attack a very serious effort to train law students in a new and different way. There are people, like me, who have left established law schools and who have moved families to a new community because we believe in the vision that Indiana Tech has for its law school. Your remarks do more harm than good—not because of the content of your statement, but because you have obviously not done the work necessary to be armed with the facts!

Sincerely,

Peter Alexander
Dean and Professor of Law

C:         Dr. Arthur E. Snyder, Indiana Institute of Technology President
Law School Faculty
Dean Philip J. Weiser, University of Colorado Law School

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/new-indiana-law-school-to-open-in-2013-2012-10#ixzz28oHrpnFr

Peter C. Alexander
Dean and Professor of Law
Description: Description: cid:43159B02-9662-4D7C-BC89-198A6F4C5875
Ph: 260-399-2834 | 1-855-TECHLAW
1600 East Washington Boulevard | Fort Wayne, Indiana 46803



Dear Dean Alexander:

I have in fact read the Prospectus for your law school, which is available on line here:  http://www.indianatech.edu/Academics/Documents/Law-School-Feasibility.pdf

It makes what in my view is an extremely unconvincing case for your enterprise.  Your belief that there’s anything unusual or unique about what you’re proposing to do is mistaken.  What you are proposing to do is to grant law degrees at a high price to people who in most cases will not be able to obtain employment, legal or otherwise, that justifies the cost of their investment in those degrees, while paying yourself a high salary out of the money these people pay for the privilege of attending a seriously overpriced institution, that will leave them worse off than they were prior to their enrollment. 

Naturally you find this evaluation of your conduct outrageous and reprehensible, but “it is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”  (Upton Sinclair).

Sincerely,

Paul Campos
Professor of Law
University of Colorado
 

147 comments:

  1. "I am quite surprised that we are the only new law school that is being attacked when there are also new schools in Tennessee, Idaho, and Texas that have either opened this year or are slated to open with us next year."

    Well, now that you mention it...

    ReplyDelete
  2. Too funny. Rock on, Professor Campos.

    ReplyDelete
  3. and... boom goes the dynamite. if you are having more email exchanges like this with the pond scum at other institutions, post them, post them all. this just made my day.

    p. alexander might want to "arm himself" with the fact that lawprof does not take any bullshit from anyone.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "p. alexander might want to "arm himself" with the fact that lawprof does not take any bullshit from anyone."

      Nice. Go LawProf!!!

      Delete
  4. The bullshit really begins on page 3 of that prospectus. Wow.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Alexander does make a good point, though. Nothing of what LawProf said is true within the particular reality Alexander has chosen.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This is one of the best arguments in support of Alexander.

      In his defense, I will also add that in the modern era there has been no major crisis or dispute, both forrign and domestic, that could not have been amicably resolved if only there were more lawyers available.

      By increasing the number of law students, we will ultimately be able to increase the lawyer density to the point where economic growth and peace are essentially guaranteed through adequate access to legal services.

      I wonder why he doesn't use that argument to buttress his position.

      Delete
  6. Amazing. Such a perfect microcosm for the flawed law school model. Nicely played Campos. Nicely played.

    ReplyDelete
  7. The bottom line here is that it does not matter what the new law school teaches or what their mission is. If it is law, there is simply no room in the job market for another law school. a law degree is not necessary for any other job than being a lawyer and will hurt not help for jobs merely requiring a BA. No jobs means this law school should not as an ethical matter exist. What are they training people for if not jobs? To be unemployed for the mostpart is the answer, and that is not a justification for a new law school. The people starting this law school are UNETHICAL.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This Alexander shyster has recently admitted in print that there are already too many law schools. Yet he's helping to build another. Needless to say, he's not doing it as a labor of love.

      Delete
  8. Prof. Campos for president.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Kudos, LawProf

    ReplyDelete
  10. Yes, but aren't terms like "high salary", and "employment", and "cost", and "high salary" , and, finally, "money", really just terms of art that could be construed in many ways? I find LP's arguments unconvincing insofar as its hard to really pin down what he is saying.

    *I have thought like a lawyer today!

    ReplyDelete
  11. what we intend to accomplish.


    Interesting. I intended to be an attorney, and paid $120,000 for the privilege. The road to debt serfdom is paved with unrealistic intentions.

    ReplyDelete
  12. This Alexander character operates under the George Castanza rule: Its not a lie if you believe it.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Not up to my usual somewhat value-added and intellectual posting...but....wait...for...it....BUUUUURRRNNNNNNN!!!!! Get em' Campos! Sunlight is the best disinfectant!

    ReplyDelete
  14. 10:39 - yes, you have thought like a lawyer today. But you make no sense. Employment is not a subjective term when graduates cannot make any kind of living in the field to which they are trained. It is not hard to understand.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Got me 10:54...got me good.

      Well done.

      Delete
  15. Dean Alexander is being disingenuous or acting wilfully blind when it comes to the outcomes of minority grads--a third of which has been demonstrated will not pass the bar exam. Of the two thirds that do, I would surmise that 80% of them will not be gainfully employed in the legal profession which in the end results in adverse outcomes for the type of students that Indiana Tech seeks to attract. You can use "magical" terms like "practice ready" or boast a 10 credit ethics requirement but how does that really enhance the minority students' chances of being successful in the legal profession? Indiana Tech is more condemnable than the other opening of new law schools since by its name alone it is giving the false illusion that it is an IP specialized law school, which it is not.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. " can use "magical" terms like "practice ready" "


      Yeah, but here at The Indiana Vocational, Vocabulational, and Technical School, we teach them to be ready to practice magic.

      See, we're different!

      Delete
    2. I'd bet that more than a third of racialized graduates from this particular bottom-feeding institution won't pass the bar.

      The very idea of a law school at a technical college disgraces the legal profession.

      Delete
  16. andré douglas pond scummingOctober 9, 2012 at 11:09 AM

    attention everyone, attention! i hereby announce my intention to cease the scholarly study of the intersection of law and the hip-hop culture. henceforth, i shall focus my not inconsiderable talents and mentality on rescuing the law school industrial complex from this terrible crisis in which we all find ourselves. first, i have discerned (after boredjaydee pointed it out again) that the law school industrial complex is essentially funded by federal government subsidificationism. inasmuch as this is most certainly self-evident (now that others have pointed it out), i have made the most delicious discovery, one which shall surely turn out to be the salvation of the law school industrial complex.

    because the law school industrial complex is, just like the historic family farms which feed your hungry nation, subject to being essentially and substantially funded by federal government subsidificationism, my modest yet ingenious proposal is that we create a special category of “fallow law schools”. that is to say, every three years precisely one-half of all law school shall, will and must henceforth put all of their teaching and administrative staff on a three-year sabbatical. however, the federal government subsidificationism for such fallow law schools (oh, how i wish, i wish! that i could capitalize that newly coined phrase!) shall continue unabated for the three year fallow term. except of course the fallow-tuition will only be permitted to increase by eight (8) per cent per annum. well now, fellows, praise me and tell me what you think of my splendid idea.

    and yes, for those of you interested in such matters, and who have been assiduously if not even pantingly following my careee, i certainly do continue my lofty goal of eschewing use of all capitals. in fact, the very notion of a “capital” is so upsetting that i've made it my duty to avoid listening to any hip-hop that is written, performed, or recorded in any of the following united states cities: albany, annapolis, atlanta (oh, this one pains me so!), augusta, austin, baton rouge, bismarck, boise, boston, carson city, charleston, cheyenne, columbia, columbus, concord, denver, des moines, dover, frankfort, harrisburg, hartford, helena, honolulu, indianapolis, jackson, jefferson city, juneau (innuit hip-hop is so warm and inviting!), lansing, lincoln, little rock, madison, montgomery, montpelier, nashville, oklahoma city, olympia, phoenix, pierre, providence, raleigh, richmond, sacramento, saint paul, salem, salt lake city, santa fe, springfield, tallahassee, topeka, or trenton.

    thank you all so much, dear fellows, for your rapt attention, for i know you shall give my ideas all the credit they are due.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. LOL.

      Seriously that was good.

      Delete
    2. andré douglas pond scummingOctober 9, 2012 at 11:21 AM

      gee, fellows, you'll turn my head. i'm blushing.

      Delete
    3. professor scumming,

      thank you for citing me in your article and thank you for your very progressive stand against the terrible discrimination against non-primary letters. i know that your work is widely cited by judges from the supreme court on down and can't wait until the job offers start rolling in.

      sincerely,

      boredjaydee X

      Delete
    4. andré douglas pond scummingOctober 9, 2012 at 1:00 PM

      well, you are welcome boredjaydee, but please, that should be "professor pond scumming" to you.

      I do not believe we have given you permission to use our name in such a familiar manner.

      Delete
    5. The analogy to farm subsidies is terrific!

      Delete
    6. a_d_p_s (yada yada)October 9, 2012 at 1:48 PM

      Thanks Professor Merritt. It came to mind while reading your prior post and something "boredjaydee" (BoredJD now that I can use caps) had written. I typed it in there but saw there was new action so pasted it in here instead (although it's topically much less relevant to LawProf's post).

      Delete
    7. Someone buy this Prof. Pond Scumming a shift key.

      Delete
    8. andré douglas pond scummingOctober 10, 2012 at 6:03 AM

      ^^^

      i am sorry, sirrah, but you appear to be a little slower on the uptake than most people with whom i converse.

      Delete
    9. Beautifully written, amazing!

      Small note. As indicated by his personal website, this scammer does, in fact, capitalize the title "Professor" in "Professor andre douglas pond cummings."

      http://www.andredouglaspondcummings.com/greetings.html

      In his, uh, scholarship, andre douglas pond cummings lauds hip hop generation's "clarion call of defiance...[that is] stunning in its raw, stark realized expose" and asserts that "hip hop has influenced a generation of law students and young lawyers to proactively seek radical means of justice." See andre douglas pond cummings, "Thug Life: Hip Hop’s Curious Relationship with Criminal Justice," Santa Clara Law Review, Vol. 50, 2009 (Working Paper Series) at download, p. 17 and 31).

      http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=484849

      But hip hop generation's clarion call of defiance better fall silent before the citadel of the student loan racket and the walls of faculty prerogatives and compensation. Call him PROFESSOR andre douglas pond cummings. No, actually, call him ASSOCIATE DEAN FOR ACADEMIC AFFAIRS andre douglas pond cummings.

      dybbuk

      Delete
    10. andré douglas pond scummingOctober 11, 2012 at 5:23 PM

      thank you, you ol' rascally Jewish spook!

      Delete
  17. Countdown till the Versatility Argument™ is deployed in 3...2...1...

    ReplyDelete
  18. We are NOT a diploma mill!


    os·trich /ˈästriCH/ Noun:

    1.A flightless swift-running African bird with a long neck, long legs, and two toes on each foot....

    2.A person who refuses to face reality or accept facts.

    ReplyDelete
  19. The prospectus:

    1. Contains a "nuclear event" on one side of the Cobb Value Chart.

    2. Assumes a 35 year career span for new graduates (i.e., retirement at age 60 for k-jd graduates). This assumption is laughably different from reality. Very few lawyers (outside the public sector) retire before 65, and many tinker with the profession until they approach 80.

    3. It uses NALP's median firm salary data, which dramatically overstates the starting salaries of small firms and fails to account for those not in the legal labor force.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The legal profession today is a "nuclear event," like Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, or Fukishima.

      Delete
  20. I would contribute money to a fund to pay for a debate between Campos and Alexander about whether Alexander's new school is a justifiable venture.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Dean Alexander is a fool... he is only provoking Campos.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. And highlighting a debate that he had already lost. If you're going to lie, don't acknowledge those who criticise you for lying.

      Delete
  22. Higher Education is the new religion, Alexander is a high priest, he is completely convinced of his side's righteousness and blinded by his own faith.

    Other than that he is probably a very nice and personable fellow.

    ReplyDelete
  23. I hope the egregiousness of the law schools cloaking themselves in the guise of "innovation" and "critical thinking" sheds light on the flaws of education at large. It is especially bad in law schools, but higher education is full of professors who pretend as if they're doing God's work and profit in no way by encouraging students to invest massive funds in a liberal arts degree that offers nothing other than "critical thinking."

    ReplyDelete
  24. This Dean's position that the nation needs another law school, based on the prospective, basically all hinges on the idea that the decline in demand for a legal education is temporary. Their only evidence of this is basically that because Legal demand has always gone up in the past, it will continue to do so in the future.

    The reason I think the Dean is wrong is because, as Professor Campos says, if something can't continue forever than it won't. It doesn't make any sense for lawyer salaries to contine to decline, tuition to continue to move higher, and for demand to remain the same.

    ReplyDelete
  25. If he responds, make sure to smack him around with a couple of stiff uppercuts to his TTTT chin.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Nando, you know what to do...

      Delete
  26. Actually, a discussion with the Dean around the content of LP's reply e-mail would be interesting. I'd be interested in his responses to someone who is knowledgeable and engaged on the subject matter like LP and who has the relevant data to ask the right questions unlike many of the mealy mouthed journalists out there. I doubt the Dean has answers, but I'd be interested in hearing his thoughts.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Somebody paid a lot of money to generate 136 pages of $%!t-paper for a Prospectus in order to justify millions of dollars of investment so as to get a new flood of students in the doors.

    Sounds like Wall Street. I couldn't get past page 4 without shaking my head. Wordsmithing with no actual substance. But who cares?! There are students to bilk!

    ReplyDelete
  28. Did he CC the dean of faculty at Colorado to try to get you in trouble?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think here I'd give they guy the benefit of the doubt. Probably thinking along the lines of... "Hey, I'm a [wannabe] [almost] Dean of a [an almost] Law School. If I send a nastygram to a prof in another law school, I should probably CC his Dean [ya know, sortalike on a "Dean-to-Dean Courtesy" basis] so it doesn't look like I'm criticizing his lawprofs behind his back."

      Delete
  29. He didn't respond to the comments on TLS at all.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well, not once they turned rancid, which was approximately the 2nd or 3rd post after his. Can't expect a hoity-toity high society guy like the dean to hang around and take that kind of pummeling, can ya?

      More seriously - it's not like he would have been able to offer any solid answers to the criticisms.

      Delete
  30. this could get interesting. if enough of the right people read this and seriously study the issue, perhaps a law school could be shut down before it is even opened.

    this exchange should be send to every paper in indiana, every news station, etc.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I believe the Fort Wayne Journal Gazette has already raised most of these concerns.

      Delete
  31. Unprofessional to post this exchange.

    Like it or not, Paul, this is one of your peers. You choose to continue to collect the very same overpriced $$ for your salary, so take a look in the mirror.

    To post your communications with a peer on your shitty free blog shows that you are no better...probably worse.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Not sure that's true. Its not really a private exchange on private matters where Dean Alexander should expect that his email be kept private. Alexander responded to a public BusinessInsider article that referenced this very blog. Its therefore should not surprise him that it would then come up in this very blog again.

      Anyway equating Campos to Alexander as "peers" is incorrect. Maybe Campos and andre douglas pond cummings are "peers" but Alexander is the dean who is actually opening up this unneeded law school at this point in time.

      Regardless, this is simply a ad hominen attacks that says NOTHING about the wisdom of opening this law school at this point in time which is the real point.

      Anything to distract from the real issue though...

      Delete
    2. concern troll is concernedOctober 9, 2012 at 1:33 PM

      "Unprofessional to post this exchange."


      I think you missed the part where Dean Alexander copied the IT President and the Colo. LS Dean?


      So, if Dean Alexander did not himself see fit to keep it a private communication, who are you to whine about it?


      (Oy vey! What a dumb question. Sorry I asked - you're one of Professor Leityear's sycophants, aren't you?)

      Delete
    3. "Like it or not, Paul, this is one of your peers."

      Oh, yes, let's all complain about decorum of the damned whilst leading their innocent lives to the guillotine.

      That's rich.

      It's one of your peers . . . . Don't befoul the royal court with that language!

      Delete
    4. I don't see what is "unprofessional" about posting this AT ALL.

      He posted his email and CC the IIT Presdent and UC CoL Dean so he obviously wrote it intending it to be read by many people.

      The nature and subject matter of the letter also is not about a private matter at all but about a public matter sent in his capacity as a public figure as Dean of the to-be-opened law school.

      Its beyond ridiculous to say that there is something wrong with publishing the letter IN THIS CASE.

      Delete
    5. These posts are so goddamn irritating. Law school legit ruined my life. So for their work, LawProf and DJM are probably the only two professors in the country who "earn" their paycheck. If anything, they are underpaid.

      - Everyone

      Delete
    6. He also posted all his information on TLS. It isn't as if he is trying to keep it a secret and law prof broke some confidence.

      Delete
    7. Campos has tenure.

      Delete
  32. PCAlexander@indianatech.edu

    ha ha. he may regret having his email made known.

    ReplyDelete
  33. That was an impressive smackdown.

    News flash to Dean Alexander: THERE AREN'T ENOUGH FUCKING JOBS!!!! Is it that hard to grasp?

    Doesn't matter how early your students take their ethics course, or whether they do a few days of pro bono work supervised by a practicing lawyer. Repeat, THERE AREN'T ENOUGH FUCKING JOBS to justify yet another law school. Half of them could close down (if only) and the demand for lawyers would continue to be met for many years..

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Here now, when did you start cussing in public?

      That's not true Southen' hospitality.

      Delete
  34. Now now, people. I'm sure that if we express ourselves in more flattering terms about what an abortion this law school will be, its new dean will become an Ally of Opportunity (tm) and advocate for Meaningful Change from Within (tm).

    By our dispassionate and professional tone shall we conquer!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Why thank you dot dash-dash-dash. That's exactly what I've been talking about upthread.

      That's the congealed spirit!


      (P.S. - always wondered about the handle if you're willing to share the story - or at least tell an interesting lie about it.)

      Delete
  35. I am going to mail LawProf $10. This post was that good.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You might consider sending it to LST instead?

      Just a thought.

      Delete
  36. The the article linked above in Law Prof's post (also linked below) has a photo at top right corner.

    This photo could generate a great new slogan for the school.

    "Welcome to The Indiana Institute of Technology Law School, Where We'll Not Only Invite You To Dig Your Own Grave, We'll Sell You The Shovel To Do It!"

    (http://www.businessinsider.com/new-indiana-law-school-to-open-in-2013-2012-10#ixzz28oHrpnFr)

    ReplyDelete
  37. Professor Campos this is hardly the worst - you and DJM have been compared to the Gestapo and NKVD on Prawfsblog

    "To shift the context about as far as possible from that of present day U.S. law professors, the extreme cases are those in which authorities literally kill the scholars and other educated elites--Poland at the start of WWII, Cambodia under Pol Pot. In other cases, faculty are merely fired, or intimidated into joining or disavowing some ideological affiliation, etc. Eastern Europe experienced much of this in the postwar era; we had a lesser but noteworthy variant in the era of Red Scares. Democracies need among other things vibrant civil societies and independent intellectuals, as dictators recognized. Granted, these are references to officials with particularly extreme sensitivity to "scholarly impact." Still, this, too, suggests that the value of scholarship is more collective and amorphous than individual and measureable."

    http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2012/10/defending-scholarship-contd.html#comments

    I did actually respond with a pretty outraged and as usual dyslexic post or too - as did "FOARP" - in a display of their motto in action

    "Where Intellectual Honesty Has (Almost Always) Trumped Partisanship -- Albeit in a Kind of Boring Way Until Recently -- Since 2005"

    Prawfsblog deleted the entire line of some 11 critical postings - leaving by the way just the astonishing lickassly:

    "This is a very smart comment. Thank you.

    Posted by: David | Oct 7, 2012 2:22:31 AM"

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Prawfsblog knows the end is nigh but the professoriate think if they close their eyes and pretend it's not there it will go away.

      Delete
    2. Want to try testing profsblawg - try something like this post:

      Since comments are closed on Daryl Brown's ludicrous and disgraceful comparison of those criticising legal scholarship to Nazis and the NKVD - see "Scholarship Collective Assessment" I really ought to point out that deleting critical comments to leave just the little item of crawling approval of the posting:

      "This is a very smart comment. Thank you.

      Posted by: David | Oct 7, 2012 2:22:31 AM"

      Makes a complete mockery of the pretentious strapline at the top of this page:

      "Where Intellectual Honesty Has (Almost Always) Trumped Partisanship -- Albeit in a Kind of Boring Way Until Recently -- Since 2005"

      You should redo that - "where kissing the hem of our academic robes has been encouraged since 2005"

      You have humiliated yourselves. I mean to defend a post that accuses critics of academic censorship equivalent to the Nazis and NKVD by censoring it so only the grovelling praise remains - is just hilarious if it was not so sad.

      Delete
    3. MacK, you should be grateful they deleted it, you were being humiliated in that thread as I remember it.

      Delete
    4. Wow, a throwback to McCarthyism.

      Delete
    5. Anonymous at 5:56 PM (or is that Brian)

      A simple question, if I was losing the point why was the thread edited to delete all critical discussion of the Nazi analogy - and the posting I just suggested.

      Surely if the prawfs were coming out ahead on the issue - they would not have felt the need to manipulate the responses to make it sound like the world agreed that Nazi/NKVD analogy was "a very smart comment"

      Delete
  38. Good lord - I read pages 3-17 of the prospective "The Need For Lawyers"

    I have read a lot of these things - demand predictions in effect. I have rarely read anything where anyone had "cherry picked" the data and so "hid the ball" as this - I have read a doozy today ... but nothing quite this spun.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I know. I was so excited when I read it.

      That was the best prospectus ever!

      It was better than I ever thought a prospectus could be.

      A lot of time and care went into it.

      It was truly a labor of love!

      Delete
    2. MacK-
      You should have read the whole thing. It is the biggest mess of unadulterated BS I have seen in a long time. The sad part is that I know that he is typical of his type, a self-important jerk who really believes the drivel he puts forth. Read the whole document and you will see what is wrong with the law school world. He is just a purveyor of the fantastical, magical thinking that animates legal education today.

      Delete
    3. Law Office -

      I really only had time to skim the first 17 pages - people pay me to read bilge, I don't do it for free (and this level of bilgey-ness usually leads me to recommend that paying anyone to read the rest is a waste of money.) Seriously, when you see a prospectus is this "cooked" by page 17 you can and should already tell a client to "run a mile from this" project and not waste any more time or money looking at it.

      Now if I was suing the author, that would be a different story - then I would go through it carefully and pull out every howler.

      Delete
  39. The main difference between Indiana Tech and the other new law schools:

    Indiana Tech is not a reputable undergrad campus and the Dean is relatively unknown.

    UC Irvine:

    Associated with one of the best Undergraduate schools in U.S., near celebrity dean, and some of the best professors in the U.S.

    Oh yeah it also gave its first year a free ride.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. (UC Irvine law student)

      Delete
    2. That doesn't justify the fact that UC Irvine law is an endeavor entirely not necessary to the California legal market.

      Delete
  40. 70th!!!!

    And fuck this asshole.

    ReplyDelete
  41. I am trying to feel outraged over that a-hole's letter, but I just don't feel anything anymore except doomed. I think this whole law school situation has finally gotten the best of me. My days are numbered, I know it, and it gives me some relief. Thanks for everything all you bloggers have done - you, too, guy who post pics of toliets. I think it is so admirable that you all put your reputations and careers on the line each day to fight social injustice. I'm tired of seeing all the things wrong with society and myself, and I'm tired of being blamed and judged for something I have no control over. Everybody has their breaking point - and I think I've finally reached mine.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Am I to understand that you're a law prof? Write something under your own name, submit it to ITLSS. If your days are numbered anyway, why not get on the side of history that won't have you called a fat cat.

      Delete
    2. "and I'm tired of being blamed and judged for something I have no control over."

      What have you done to help thus far?

      Delete
    3. I'm kind of lost on the entire no control issue.

      You have no control that you are engaging in the professing of law?

      Huh?

      Delete
    4. @ 3:45PM, all I can say is....

      ..."Hi JDP - thought you were gonna lay low for a while? What brought you out into the sunshine again?"

      Delete
    5. I think he's talking about suicide, in which case please seek help. The situation will get better.

      Delete
    6. Oh, yeah. Well if this dude is a prof, then pleading "I have no control! My hair is on fire!" is pretty funny when he's thanking "the guy who posts pictures of toilets". Yeah, Nando did make an impression and keeps things rolling right along, but seriously, I don't even think Nando would say he has more "control" than a law prof coming turning state's.

      Delete
    7. Fuck. I can't type.

      Delete
  42. "We are not a diploma mill!"

    Not yet, at least.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Let's be honest. How is any law school more or less of a diploma mill?

    ReplyDelete
  44. some scumsucking dean wrote:
    " Additionally, you have not taken the time to reach out to me to learn anything about the true mission and purpose of our school."

    "That's gold, Jerry! Gold!"

    ReplyDelete
  45. Living inside the education bubble it makes perfect sense to build a law school.

    ReplyDelete
  46. A frank exchange of viewsOctober 9, 2012 at 5:18 PM

    What's with all this froggish Gaulishness all the sudden, anyway?

    ReplyDelete
  47. His feelings were hurt.

    ReplyDelete
  48. That dean is probably a baby boomer, a generation in denial

    ReplyDelete
  49. DEAN ALEXANDER,

    When one of your future graduates contacts you, expressing his sense of worthlessness, desperation and hopelessness and confiding in you the his (or her, but probably his) suicidal thoughts, or when one of your students commits suicide, I hope you remember this comment.

    You have been warned. Perhaps the law draws distinctions on culpability, but morality needn't. But there are people alive and happy today who will die because of your law "school".

    Ignorance and avarice - not necessarily mutually exclusive - do kill. You kill.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Here's an interesting exercise. Google Indiana Tech Law School. Log on to their website and click the box marked Faculty Taking Shape. Not a professor listed isn't the product or faculty cast off of one of Americas worst law schools.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well, one of them got her JD from the U of Minnesota. So at least they have someone from the bottom of Tier 2. But there certainly isn't anyone from Harvard or Yale.

      Delete
    2. Who cares where they got their JDs? Usually folks on here are decrying the notion that "Only HYS" is the appropriate pool for law profs.

      On the other hand, Google and note that you'll find literally dozens of Florida-local articles (St.Pete Times, Tampa-Bay paper, etc) about one of the profs who used to teach at FAMU. I'll leave it to the reader to characterize the tone and content of those articles, except to say they do not create a favorable impression.

      Delete
  51. $30,000 per year for an unaccredited law school? Where would one take the bar?

    ReplyDelete
  52. The dean apparently sent an email to someone in the TLS thread.

    "Mr. Sxxxxxxx,

    Thank you for the invitation to respond to questions on the TLS site. When I logged on the other evening, it was to clear up misconceptions that people had about our school and because the discussion was civil and respectful. When I logged on today to try and address the questions as you suggested, I read the thread. The tone has changed; I would describe it as venomous and uncivil. Sadly, we are not that kind of law school and I am not that kind of attorney so I won’t be posting to the thread any longer.

    If you or any of your colleagues has a question about our program and the truth about our tuition (which does not include merit-based scholarships, which we have), or any other issue, I renew my invitation to all of you to email me at this address.

    Best wishes to you as you make the very difficult decision about where to attend law school.

    Yours truly,

    Peter Alexander

    Peter C. Alexander
    Dean and Professor of Law"

    What a coward.

    ReplyDelete
  53. That feasibility/prospectus/whatever is one of the most intellectually dishonest things ever published.

    http://lawschooltuitionbubble.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/indiana-tech's-proponents-continue-to-make-fools-of-themselves-amuse-critics/

    http://lawschooltuitionbubble.wordpress.com/2011/07/05/indiana-tech-utterly-irresponsibly-predicts-a-future-attorney-shortage/

    ReplyDelete
  54. to equate the opening of a law school with murdering one’s parents is reprehensible

    It certainly is. Most people who commit parricide generally don't hurt anyone else. A new law school will harm thousands of students for decades to come.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ha! Brilliant!

      Delete
    2. they just hurt the parrot.

      Delete
  55. @ 7:07, and siphon millions from taxpayer's pockets.

    ReplyDelete
  56. It speaks volumes of this site when there was a response, and rather quickly, to an article posted the day before yesterday...and further, an article with a title of a song about a fugitive on the run who's about to get caught.

    ReplyDelete
  57. When Nando profiled this school-to-be (or hopefully not to be), I listed all of the law schools that are within a 200 mile radius of Fort Wayne:

    Notre Dame, Valparaiso, IU - Indianapolis, IU - Bloomintgton, University of Illinois, John Marshall, Depaul, Loyola, Chicago-KenTT, University of Chicago, Northwestern, Marquette, University of Louisville, Northern Kentucky, University of Cincinnati, Dayton, Toledo, Akron, Ohio State, Ohio Northern, Capital, Case Western, Cleveland Marshall, Cooley's Michigan campuses, University of Michigan, Detroit-Mercy, Wayne State, and Michigan State.

    So there are about 30 law schools within 200 miles of Indiana Tech. I think this fact explains why Dean Alexander makes such a big deal out of their ethics classes and clinical requirements. They have to pretend that they are doing SOMETHING different from all the other law schools so they have some chance to stand out.

    Every school claims to have a caring faculty and state of the art libraries and facilities and an amazingly diverse student body and all that crap. Indiana Tech is trying to find a way to differentiate themselves in hopes that enough lemmings will notice their appreciably different sales pitch and decide to enroll with them instead of one of the other nearby TTTs.

    The fact that a new law school has to advertise itself as being different from all the other law schools should tell anyone who is paying attention that there is something wrong with law schools overall.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Windsor (in Ontario) is also within that distance of Indiana Tech.

    Tamanaha pointed out that law schools could do something different. Why not focus on education and abandon the pretentious, worthless "scholarship" on which the professoriate wastes most of its time? Why not operate on a shoestring budget? Why isn't Indiana Tech doing any of these things?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. They want the money money money. It's all about the money.

      Delete
    2. There's nothing different about that.

      Delete
  59. Want to try something new and different?

    5 years after graduation, give your students the option to either keep their degree or Indiana Tech covers their loan balance? Or even 50% of their remaining balance? They hand over their diploma, resign from any bar memberships they hold, and you take over the payments.

    Sort of a money back guarantee.

    Granted it's not a new concept overall, but it is new and different from what law schools are doing now.

    And if you truly believe in your product, what do you have to lose?

    ReplyDelete
  60. I wonder if the Dean realizes that in the age of Google, each of his little forays into the internet in which he starts an argument which he eventually cannot or will not finish, just draws more attention to the criticisms of his "law school" when prospective students do internet research?

    After all, when people search for Indiana Tech Law School, I assume some of these exchanges are going to pop up, and most of the commenters know the score in the current legal job market.

    Sometimes it's best to just let sleeping dogs lie.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The dog/dean lies through his teeth.

      Delete
  61. McLaw

    Over 100,000,000 served

    ReplyDelete
  62. "A new Rasmussen Reports telephone survey finds that 60% of American Adults say there are too may lawyers in America. Just 13% say there are not enough lawyers, but 14% say there are just the right amount. Another 13% are not sure."

    I know where the authors of that riduclous Ind Tech prospectus stand.

    ReplyDelete
  63. This “dean” knows that he’s leaving an internet trail… He just doesn’t car. He’s not a lawyer or prof. He’s a used car salesman. All of these professional schools act like car salesmen. I’ve looked at mba, mph, and mha programs and all they want to do is sell, sell, sell.

    ReplyDelete
  64. That’s supposed to read he doesn’t “care” not “car.” Ok, thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  65. CCing Prof Campos' "boss" (I.e., the dean)?? - what a punk a$$ b****!!

    ReplyDelete
  66. A more honest law school prospectus might say "with unlimited federal loan money available, we can charge whatever we want and will probably find enough naive souls to fill every seat, or close to it. This bubble is probably several years away from bursting, and, with the advent of IBR, may go on for many more years. There is plenty of money to be extracted from the taxpayer via feeding at the SL trough. Let's get while the gettin's good.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Probably the best thing about this whole exchange is andre douglas pond cummings's rediculous blog.

    It looks like it's from geocities.

    http://www.andredouglaspondcummings.com/

    If you haven't seen it yet, it's gold.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I laughed out loud when the music kicked in. It really gets your head bobbing while browsing through all his social justice scholarship. Though, I wold suggest the music begin with a dark, muffled voice saying "fuck capital letters."

      Delete
    2. Ahhh! White on black! White on black! That text burns my goddamn retinas.

      But he is a "dynamic scholar", so says noted "public intellectual" someone or other.

      Delete
  68. Please note that pnd cummings graduated from Howard in May 1997, but he is not admitted in the Utah Bar until 1998.

    Since few aspiring lawyers skip a chance to sit for a bar, me smells a bar failure.

    ReplyDelete
  69. I so love all the misguided keyboard warriors that live here. The fact that you have this much time to sit around and speak ill of people shows not only to your character, but most likely to your contribution to society. Scholary works ranging from philosophy to history to education can often be made fun of in hteir appearances. Education as a while though is compromised of these 'odd' endeavors. To think that a man put forth efforts,and that you lazily sit by and criticize is lazy and shameful. The internet age hasbrought about many wonderful things. It's also allowed monkeys to be given a brain and of course think they are the center of the universe... and then make light of everyone's life.. except of course for their own obvious shortcomings.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Speakin of misguided keyboards...October 10, 2012 at 2:13 PM

      " Scholary [sic] works ranging from philosophy to history to education can often be made fun of in hteir [sic] appearances. Education as a while [sic] though is compromised of [sic] ( - WTF, "compromised"? - do you mean "composed"? Or were you shooting for "comprised of" (which would also be an incorrect usage)) these 'odd' endeavors."

      (Dean Alexander, izzat you?)

      Delete
    2. Are you Dean Glengarry Glenross or andre pond scum?

      Delete
  70. Sorry, I am working at my job. Didn't have time to spell check and point out the faults of others. People that point out others shortcomings normally have wonderful lives. Tease all you want; I know your life is sad and most likely a waste. Say as you wish now, you know it too. Sleep on that and post your wonderfully insightful comments below. I won't be back, like most of the other non-trolls.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You're right. An entire generation of naive, 20-something kids should be shackled to non-dischargeable debt to support our academic betters and their scholarly pursuits. Individually works like Prof. Leong's "“The Open Road and the Traffic Stop: Narratives and Counter-Narratives of the American Dream” and Prof. andre douglas pond cummings' "Thug Life: Hip Hop's Curious Relationship with Criminal Justice" may seem like worthless endeavors never to be read by anyone, but collectively this scholarship has power to change the world. Only when us keyboard warriors start rounding up the academic elites and shipping them off to death camps will we see how lucky we were to have their great contributions to the world.

      http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2012/10/defending-scholarship-contd.html#comments

      Delete
    2. Speaking of misguided doorknobsOctober 10, 2012 at 4:01 PM

      "Didn't have time to ...point out the faults of others."

      And yet, that is entirely what your post at 1:56 amounted to.

      You're so FOS that then internet is beginning to smell bad.

      If you're going to be blatantly hypocritical, at least try to be clever about it.

      Delete
    3. Hi mr. andre pond scum!

      Delete
  71. Indiana Tech should not be opening this law school. It will be smoked by Valparaiso Law and the other three law schools in Indiana. The dean is not prepared and has not done his homework in this area. Campos is correct that he enumerates nothing unique about IIT's unaccredited curriculum. I think Indiana Tech is risking it's decent reputation on this misguided venture.

    ReplyDelete
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