Thursday, September 20, 2012

When the levee breaks

Last year there was a bit of kerfuffle over the AALS's decision not to approval even one "Hot Topics" panel -- apparently more than one proposal was put forward -- on the crisis in legal education at the organization's annual meeting.  This year's meeting is in New Orleans, recently the site of the biggest natural disaster in modern American history.

The potential symbolism of the location seems to have been lost on the prosaic minds of the people who organize these kinds of things, who have put together a program that if anything pays even less attention to the fact that the house is on fire, and prefers to focus on whether the living room decor truly captures the spirit of Mid-Century Modern.

I've perused this 192-page document so you don't have to, and here's a complete list of everything in it that even alludes to the perilous state of legal education (perilous from the perspective of the people who pay the bills, of course. As Brian Tamanaha pointed out awhile ago, most law schools are still to external appearances doing "just fine" -- although not nearly as fine as they were doing a couple of years ago, before all the unpleasantness began):

Improving Student Well-Being Inside and Outside the Classroom

Moderator and Speaker: Robert P. Schuwerk, University of Houston Law Center
Speakers: Ken Brummel-Smith, M.D., Charlotte Edwards Maguire
Professor and Chair, Department of Geriatrics, The Florida State U U University College of Medicine, Tallahassee, FL
Susan S. Daicoff, Florida Coastal School of Law
Lawrence S. Krieger, Florida State University College of Law
Todd D. Peterson, The George Washington University Law School
Corie L. Rosen, Arizona State University Sandra Day O’Connor College of Law
Robin S. Wellford-Slocum, Chapman University School of Law

One or more presenters to be selected from Call for Papers.

This is a watershed moment for legal education. Law applicants, students and graduates confront a troubled legal market. Law schools, themselves targets of criticism, operate in atmospheres of hostility and distrust. Faculties, faced with declining law school applications and the budgetary constraints they impose, reassess the structure and value of their programs. This confluence of factors, albeit posing a challenge, also presents opportunity. If we were to reimagine legal education, what might we do to alleviate students’ well-documented distress, while at the same time better prepare them to navigate a changing legal marketplace?
Deaning in the “New Normal”
Moderator: David N. Yellen, Loyola University, Chicago, School of Law
Speakers: John Y. Gotanda, Villanova University School of Law
Wendy C. Perdue, The University of Richmond School of Law
Jennifer L. Rosato, Northern Illinois University College of Law
Frank H. Wu, University of California, Hastings College of the Law
Serving as a dean today is quite a different experience than it has been for most of the past two decades. To cite a few of today’s challenges:
1. Applications have declined considerably for two years
2. The job market remains weak, with some experts suggesting that this reflects not just
lingering effects of the recession, but rather a systematic restructuring of the profession
3. Law schools have received an unprecedented amount of negative publicity, on issues
including expense, the relevance of legal scholarship, and the quality of the training
we provide our students
4. A number of law schools have been sued, with more suits apparently planned
5. The U.S. News & World Report rankings continue to have a number of pernicious effects
In these circumstances, and with great changes in legal education potentially on the horizon, what does it mean to serve  What are reasonable goals and expectations for someone considering a deanship?
Business Meeting at Program Conclusion.
AALS Presidential Program
2:00 - 3:45 PM
[6315] Presidential Program
Law Schools and Their Critics
Law schools face intense criticism. The panel will examine the critiques and discuss what they mean for the legal academy.
Reignite and Renew: How to Rebuild Your Brand in a Down
Economy and Bad Press


Moderator: Michelle Allison, Thomas Jefferson School of Law
Speaker: Angela Dalfen, Golden Gate University School of Law

Standing out from other law schools has always been a primary marketing focus of most law schools. With a little over two hundred ABA-approved law schools from which prospective students may choose, distinguishing your school as “unique” is not always easy. Doing so can be more challenging when your school is faced with the reality of a struggling economy, less than optimal employment opportunities for your graduates and a barrage of bad publicity. This panel of law school professionals will discuss the impact these and other factors have had on the prospective student pool, their current student body morale and will discuss ways their school has retooled and revamped their image.

That's it.  The conference features dozens of programs, and hundreds of speakers, but apparently no formal discussion of: the state of the job market for law graduates, the student debt crisis, the financial structure of legal education, the fight for transparency within the ABA, the ongoing collapse of applications to law school, or anything else that, as Sam Johnson observed, would tend to concentrate an attendee's mind  (There is, to be fair, this stray sentence in the introduction to the day-long Presidential Program, which is dedicated to discussing "globalization:"  "These choices [to focus on "globalization"] have rightly raised questions about the relevance to our students and to the practice of law of such undertakings as well as issues of resource allocation when law schools should worry about the rising cost of legal education and student debt." This is the only mention of student debt in the entire conference program).

Of course it's possible these things will be discussed in the ominously blank "Presidential Program" dedicated to the topic of law schools and their critics (I will be curious to find out if any critics will actually be participating in this discussion).  And one would think they will inevitably come up in other sessions.  But as it stands, this glossy program and the multi-million dollar conference it advertises are both monuments to the remarkable level of denial that still marks much of legal academia, especially in its most official bureaucratic self-representations.

I take it there will be another call for "hot topic" panels in the next few weeks, and although organizing that kind of thing (or anything else) isn't my strong suit I think I'm going to put together a proposal.  It could be called -- just thinking out loud here -- Category Five.


128 comments:

  1. Lawprof, what are your predictions for the legal academy for the next year?

    ReplyDelete
  2. And these people are certain they are the smartest in the world.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Third!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  4. i skimmed some of the program. what is startling to me is how much of the prgrams have a large liberal bias. i knew law schools have a pretty liberal bias, but even i was surprised.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Should I stop blogging?

    Part 1

    I have many critics, and get many negative comments either on Third Tier Reality or on the Professor Campos Blog.

    A lot of the negative comments say that I am crazy. Or a drunk. Or Lazy. Or stupid. Or too stupid to pass the Bar Exam, and so on.

    One recent comment at Third Tier Reality said that I am hijacking the "movement" or the "scamblog movement" in so many words, and it is that comment in particular that I want to address.


    But first of all, I just want to say that the scamblogging in general has gone through a few phases by now.

    Nando was part of the very first wave of bloggers, or at least he joined them shortly thereafter.

    I started blogging in the fall of 2010, and was a part of what was perhaps the second wave or phase of the movement, and it was about a year after my student loan default at the end of 2009, which triggered an enormous financial penalty and placed my loan beyond all hope of ever being paid off in my lifetime.

    Not too long after that, and in the winter of 2011, the New York Times published an article about the interlinked scamblogs, of which there were perhaps two dozen, and I remember getting over eight thousand views on my old Esquire Painting blog during the week that the Times article came out.

    My Esquire Painting blog, before I closed it, had over 150,000 views, and my profile had around seven thousand views.

    Then, in the summer of 2011, Professor Campos started his blog which, perhaps, marked the beginning of the third and final phase of the movement.

    Many of the original scamblogs are either gone, or have become pretty much inactive.

    I wanted to stop blogging myself since I felt uncomfortable with being scrutinized by Homeland Security and the Department of Defense, and even the FBI.

    Some have said that the DOE and FBI views can be anyone, including an employee that either went to law school or is thinking about law school and is passing the time by browsing the blogs.

    I don't know. However, I have also had views from the US Senate, The US House of Representatives, The US Comptroller of the Currency, the Department of the Treasury, The Office of the President in Washington DC, State Governments, and Countless Universities including Harvard, Yale, etc.

    In spite of all that I had second thoughts and tried blogging again a couple of times and under different titles, but the momentum seemed to have been lost, and my subsequent blogging efforts were also languishing in terms of page views, and so I removed the blogs.

    But fairly recently I started the blog you are reading here, and the reason I did that was because I had a severe critic that I wanted to reply to, which I did, and now that severe critic seems to have disappeared.

    I chose the name JD Painterguy's blog for the blog you are reading now because that is what everyone wants to call me, even though everyone knows my real name as well. Maybe that is just an internet thing......you know....everyone has a pen name or a pseudonym.

    And so here I am, and like I said above, some people feel that my presence "harms the movement" or "discredits" it, and so forth.

    Perhaps it does, and that is the last thing I want to do if that is true.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Since you seem to enjoy blogging you should keep doing it.

      Delete
    2. Yes, please quit posting.

      Delete
    3. who reads these long-ass posts?

      Delete
  6. Part 2.

    Professor Campos now has a book, and seems to have the legal academy in a tizzy, which is a good thing, and they will lash out at the weakest link, which is probably me, for I am not in a position of authority or an academic, and I was a terrrible student of law besides.

    And sincerely, I do not want to stand in the way of, or harm the progress of efforts (The new Campos book) to get the word out to the public and to young people and their parents of the potential financial perils and pitfalls of going to law school.

    Lhasa Ahpsos have very acute hearing, and used to wake up and alert the big dogs in the Ancient Tibetan castles. If the scamblogs have done something similar to that in that they have alerted concerned academics and the public in general to a big problem, then I guess the scamblogs have succeeded.


    * Note: I prefer to break up my paragraphs and make a post sort of like a business letter. I feel it is easier to read that way.


    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes, stop blogging.

      And stop posting on the other blogs too.

      And stop reading them.

      They are not helping you, and you are not helping them.

      Move on, as best you can.

      Delete
    2. Sorry, dude. I feel your pain but please stop posting and being interviewed.

      Delete
    3. Yes, please, please, for the love of whatever, stop blogging.

      Or at least stop posting here.

      And if possible, as 6:42 says, stop posting and being interviewed.

      Delete
    4. Fuck 'em Painter Guy! Keep blogging, posting, and interviewing...it's a free country after all!!

      Delete
    5. Ok Painter, I’ll bite. Although let me first offer my usual disclaimer: You are almost certainly posting this tale of woe because it’s what you do every few months to gain new readers. You pretend that you’re quitting, you want people to write about how much they love you, and then you end up staying after all. It happens very frequently with you. Either you shut down the blog and delete all your posts, only to restart the same blog with the same posts (that you must have saved somewhere), or you hint that you will commit suicide, which also gets you attention and people post on your blog. It’s a power game for you; you threaten to leave in one form or another to force people to write about how much they will miss you if you leave. I don’t think this time is any different, and I’m sure that you’ll continue on, just as you always do.

      You may have once been relevant to scamblogs, but that was in the early days when it was “all hands on deck.” Now, your story has little to do with the law school scam. Your student debt ballooning out of control was utterly preventable, and has little to do with your lack of ability to find a job and everything to do with your reluctance to find a job. And yes, it’s a very sad situation for you to be in, but it has nothing to do with the plight of the thousands of us who are working hard to pay our loans, sometimes with two or three jobs (like me), rather than not working and avoiding paying them. And more importantly, it has nothing to do with law school other than the fact that that’s where you spent your student loan money. You would have been in the same boat had you spent your money on a business degree, or an arts degree, or whatever.

      Nor are you a particularly useful example of a struggling law grad. You are not the same as the vast majority of law grads who did everything right – up to and including passing the bar exam – but who still can’t find good work. You didn’t pass the bar exam, you were never a lawyer, and you never had any part in the legal profession. You don’t fit here! You can’t attribute your unemployment to your law degree or the legal profession, because you didn’t pass the bar exam. Surely that is the main reason you’re not a lawyer? Because you’ve been a grad for a long time now, and you’ve seen good times as well as bad in the legal hiring market.

      When you participate in this movement, through articles in newspapers, radio interviews or whatever, the message we’re trying to convey gets utterly lost. The message becomes “look at this freakshow of someone who is drowning under student debt but who has never actually tried to pay it off!” The message becomes “look at this slightly-insane person reading bad poems!” The message that is not getting through is “my god, it’s terrible that this hard-working, educated young person did everything right and is getting screwed by the profession.” That’s how you detract from the message. You give people a reason to switch off, to laugh, to mock, to dismiss this whole thing as silly people with non-existent problems. The plight of the spokesperson should be the same as the plight of the movement. But in your case, when you speak for us, our message doesn’t get through. I’m not sure you even know what our message is! Having you as a public face of the scamblog movement is like having a French Mime – white face and all – as the leader of the civil rights movement: it’s just wrong in so many ways, and makes people dismiss the movement as ridiculous.

      (continued below...)

      Delete
    6. You clearly have some mental issues – I would too in your situation. You’re either suffering from some kind of mental disease (manic depressive?), or you’re constantly drinking or abusing some kind of substance, as your posts tend to spiral out of control around “drinking time” or “manic time”, then you delete them the next day when you read how bad they are. And you’re paranoid; you have once again mentioned that the FBI and various other government departments are stalking you. This is just not true, and you are merely picking up IP addresses from someone in those departments, most likely just someone who is reading these blogs on his or her lunchbreak. Trust me, if the FBI wanted to spy on you, they would do a far better job than using their traceable IP addresses. The same goes for hits from universities – it’s not professors researching you, it’s law students reading the blog. Same for all the other government agencies; it’s just people reading your blog while bored at work. Silly things like this just make you a bad representative for scamblogging. We don’t need an unstable, paranoid person out front, talking to the media, giving interviews, and giving people something to roll their eyes at.

      Do you understand now?

      Really?

      Or is this just another “Look at me!” moment from you? Another “I’m leaving!” moment, when you’ll be back next week to start posting all your old blog posts again as if they are new? Another “Does anyone love me?” moment?

      Now don’t misunderstand me. You have a place. Just not here. You have a place in the general student loan reform movement. You’d be a great spokesperson for bankruptcy reform. You’d be a great spokesperson for student lending reform. You and Cryn should keep your relationship going because you seem to work well together. She needs you, and you need her. But you’re just not right for this particular movement.
      I also think that taking a break from this would do you good. It’s very easy to get drawn into scamblogs, to see only the scamblog message, to feel every day that you were scammed hard, that life is miserable because of law school. And it will do you a world of good to get away, get a fresh perspective. These blogs are depressing at times, and for someone whose life can’t be fun, scamblogs are hardly a healthy place for you to be.
      I truly hope – for your own health – that you leave.

      But I firmly believe that you’ll stick around. I’ve read your stuff since you began, and your recent “I’m quitting” story is nothing new. Just what happens in Painterworld every few months.

      This is your MO.

      Delete
    7. (Original post by Painter, so responses make sense after he deletes it):

      Should I stop blogging?

      Part 1

      I have many critics, and get many negative comments either on Third Tier Reality or on the Professor Campos Blog.

      A lot of the negative comments say that I am crazy. Or a drunk. Or Lazy. Or stupid. Or too stupid to pass the Bar Exam, and so on.

      One recent comment at Third Tier Reality said that I am hijacking the "movement" or the "scamblog movement" in so many words, and it is that comment in particular that I want to address.


      But first of all, I just want to say that the scamblogging in general has gone through a few phases by now.

      Nando was part of the very first wave of bloggers, or at least he joined them shortly thereafter.

      I started blogging in the fall of 2010, and was a part of what was perhaps the second wave or phase of the movement, and it was about a year after my student loan default at the end of 2009, which triggered an enormous financial penalty and placed my loan beyond all hope of ever being paid off in my lifetime.

      Not too long after that, and in the winter of 2011, the New York Times published an article about the interlinked scamblogs, of which there were perhaps two dozen, and I remember getting over eight thousand views on my old Esquire Painting blog during the week that the Times article came out.

      My Esquire Painting blog, before I closed it, had over 150,000 views, and my profile had around seven thousand views.

      Then, in the summer of 2011, Professor Campos started his blog which, perhaps, marked the beginning of the third and final phase of the movement.

      Many of the original scamblogs are either gone, or have become pretty much inactive.

      I wanted to stop blogging myself since I felt uncomfortable with being scrutinized by Homeland Security and the Department of Defense, and even the FBI.

      Some have said that the DOE and FBI views can be anyone, including an employee that either went to law school or is thinking about law school and is passing the time by browsing the blogs.

      I don't know. However, I have also had views from the US Senate, The US House of Representatives, The US Comptroller of the Currency, the Department of the Treasury, The Office of the President in Washington DC, State Governments, and Countless Universities including Harvard, Yale, etc.

      In spite of all that I had second thoughts and tried blogging again a couple of times and under different titles, but the momentum seemed to have been lost, and my subsequent blogging efforts were also languishing in terms of page views, and so I removed the blogs.

      But fairly recently I started the blog you are reading here, and the reason I did that was because I had a severe critic that I wanted to reply to, which I did, and now that severe critic seems to have disappeared.

      I chose the name JD Painterguy's blog for the blog you are reading now because that is what everyone wants to call me, even though everyone knows my real name as well. Maybe that is just an internet thing......you know....everyone has a pen name or a pseudonym.

      And so here I am, and like I said above, some people feel that my presence "harms the movement" or "discredits" it, and so forth.

      Perhaps it does, and that is the last thing I want to do if that is true.

      Delete
    8. (Second part of Painter's original post):

      Part 2.

      Professor Campos now has a book, and seems to have the legal academy in a tizzy, which is a good thing, and they will lash out at the weakest link, which is probably me, for I am not in a position of authority or an academic, and I was a terrrible student of law besides.

      And sincerely, I do not want to stand in the way of, or harm the progress of efforts (The new Campos book) to get the word out to the public and to young people and their parents of the potential financial perils and pitfalls of going to law school.

      Lhasa Ahpsos have very acute hearing, and used to wake up and alert the big dogs in the Ancient Tibetan castles. If the scamblogs have done something similar to that in that they have alerted concerned academics and the public in general to a big problem, then I guess the scamblogs have succeeded.


      * Note: I prefer to break up my paragraphs and make a post sort of like a business letter. I feel it is easier to read that way.

      Delete
    9. To the commenter who began at 10:44.

      Excellent response. You've described the situation, and JD Painter's (mis)place in it perfectly.

      Good job, now only if he'd listen.

      Delete
    10. Painter Update (from his "blog"):

      ..........

      Update: 6:03PM EST

      I have left a copy of this post on Inside The Law school Scam. However, I did not go back after posting the copy, and I am not going back there anymore, although I will remain linked to ILSS, unless it's authors notify me that they object to my linking to them.

      So maybe my not going back there is a good, middle ground approach so as to appease the critics for now.

      And besides, there are far too many suspiciously anon commenters at ILLS that talk a good talk, but God only knows who they are, and what the MO is for many of them.

      At this late stage of the game, my humble advice for Professor Campos and DJM is to continue blogging, but to not allow for anon comments, and for obvious reasons.

      ..........

      Oh, funny you "didn't come back here", but copied my use of the term "MO"?

      You're here, Painter. We're not stupid.

      And once more, you're critical of people who use "anonymous" as their handle. Do you not understand the advantages? Once again, you're trying to get people to reveal their IDs. Stop. Just stop. The FBI is not stalking you; you're stalking us!

      And what are those "obvious" reasons? Because you can't name people who disagree with you?

      And I see you've already backtracked on your vow to quit blogging. "So maybe my not going back there is a good, middle ground approach so as to appease the critics for now." Er, I thought you were done. And most of the commenters here want you to go away.

      I guess you didn't get the "oh we love you Painter please don't stop you're so great!" response you wanted, and now have to eat crow!

      Delete
    11. I fully agree. This JD Painter person is a self-absorbed prat. He doesn't deserve the visibility that he achieves by plastering his insane rants all over the place. At least 99% of his plight is his own damn fault.

      Delete
    12. I'm not sure who's crazier, JDP or the guy who keeps encouraging and complimenting himself (good point!) as he insults JDP.

      Delete
    13. Quit posting, you are axis 1'ing all over the place.

      Delete
  7. Sounds like someone is disappointed that his panel was rejected.

    Maybe next year the AALS will see the light and make it all Campos all the time.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Did you even read the post? Law prof hasn't proposed a panel yet.

      And it seems that no one else is even interested in discussing the elephant in the room: "How law schools destroyed their own credibility by lying about employment and other statistics and misleading their students. Or why no 0Ls trust a word you say anymore."

      Delete
    2. Ah yes, Campos is the narcissist here, not the countless law professors and deans who can't summon the empathy to give a flying fuck that most of their students are facing financial ruin.

      Delete
  8. Paul Campos is just another Keyser Söze.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This makes no sense. Did you even see that movie? If you did, and you are a boomer, you should watch it again since it has been years since it came out.

      Delete
    2. He's right in front of you, feeding you a line of shit about the enemy, when the enemy is him. Pointing the finger at all these other people who are to blame, while laughing all the way to the bank as others take the fall for him...

      Sounds like Keyser Soze to me.

      Delete
    3. If he simply wanted to "laugh all the way to the bank" then how does writing a scamblog, talking in the media about the dangers of attending LS, accomplish this goal???

      Would it not be better to just stay silent or even defend the scam as other law profs and deans do in that case???

      Delete
  9. I would like to see some analysis of the various State Bar Economics of Law Practice surveys that are published. The claimed income figures are utter BS. The State Bars supply false figures which backs up the law school narrative which drives the sheep over the cliff.

    ReplyDelete
  10. I was in New Orleans and stayed in the French Quarter near where this meeting happened. These bums were in a sweet hotel on Canal Street just outside the French Quarter. It looked like it cost some mega bank to do this meeting. Fancy.

    In other news, my credit score took a hit recently when my creditor reported me as 60 days late on my student loans from law school.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You should pay for your shit or else end up like painter guy.

      Delete
    2. Or just don't pay. Once enough people do that the government's going to start wondering where its money is going.

      Delete
  11. Organizations hold conferences in New Orleans as a post-Katrina show of solidarity. It says that the city is alive, and still a place to have a good time.

    ReplyDelete
  12. I note that law Professor Corie Lynn Rosen of ASU is a panelist on “Improving Student Well-Being Inside and Outside the Classroom.”

    As indicated by her CV, this comely young professor of law has never practiced law for a single minute. She didn’t even bother, post-law school, of undergoing the brute ordeal of a one year judicial clerkship, spending a year as a big firm junior associate, or even doing a “fellowship” for some do-gooder organization.

    She got a JD from Berkeley in 2006, became a teaching fellow at Berkeley (2006), an “instructor of law” at ASU (2007), and is now is ASU “Professor of Academic Theory, Lecturer in Law, and Director of the Academic Support Program.”

    http://apps.law.asu.edu/files/faculty/cvs/rosencorie.pdf

    http://apps.law.asu.edu/Apps/Faculty/Faculty.aspx?individual_id=54632

    Corie Rosen presence on the panel is probably due to her horrid law review article: “The Method and the Message, 12 Nev. L.J. 160 (2012) In the article, Rosen employs the jargon of “positive psychology” (attribution style, entity mindedness, etc.). She condemns “extreme examples of a professor’s pessimistic response” to a student, such as “Maybe law school just isn’t for you.” (p. 34 of the linked download of her article, below). She concludes that law professors “can encourage students to think about setbacks, however large or small, through the lens of optimistic attribution. Together, the incremental mindset and the optimistic feedback methodology can have real, measurable effects on law student well-being and performance.” (p. 38 of the linked download of her article)

    http://works.bepress.com/corie_rosen/2/
    (click on download)

    This charlatan has also given presentations such as “A World of Yes: Using Positive Psychology in the Classroom” (at the Institute for Law Teaching and Learning, National Conference, Gonzaga Law School, 2009) and “Creating the Optimistic Classroom: Giving Motivational Feedback” (at the LSAC National Conference on Academic Success at SLU Law). Perhaps she should go on tour with Tony Robbins and Zig Ziglar.

    Nowhere in Corrie Rosen article does she link student depression and pessimism and anxiety to “loans” or “debt”– these words do not appear in her article. I also did not notice any mention of the job market or lack of skills-training as contributing factors to student negativity.

    dybbuk

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. We'll buy a couple of packages of Oreos to hand out in class, then congratulate ourselves on "Improving Student Well-Being".

      Delete
  13. the law school parasites are gonna Katrina about 25K naive young kids this year.
    Ce-le-brate, good times, come on!

    ReplyDelete
  14. You know, if any of you losers were capable of picking up a C++ manual and learning how to program, you wouldn't be in this situation. You'd get a job paying 60K eventually and your lives would go on.

    The point is, it's not like you have any marketable skills anyone wants. You're lawyers from mediocre law schools, while the market is flooded with them. There are really only so many ambulances to chase, and so many frivolous personal injury lawsuits to file.

    I have a suggestion. Do what every Rajesh and Sanjeev in the world can do, and learn something about IT. It will not add much to your debt. Then get a job in computers.

    Oh wait, I forgot, you people are bad at technical stuff. Actually, you're also bad at basic arithmetic, you know, like interest rate calculations, since you managed to accumulate a huge debt and not realize the consequences.

    Stop saying you were scammed. You scammed yourselves. You can redeem yourselves if you move on and get new and different skills, and despite the above I'm sure most of you can do it, if you get over this defeatist mentality.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies

    1. I have over 10 years of C++ experience, but I haven't been able to find paying work in that area since 2004.

      Fortunately I have other skills and sources of income, and have been able to keep my head above water so far.

      Delete
    2. So are you a programmer Mr. 7:22?
      How do you know there are jobs? There are a lot of programmers in this world.
      Why do you assume that none of us have mad skillz?

      Delete
    3. "programmer" is this week's "nypd cop", "truck driver", and "Dakota oil worker".

      Delete
    4. @7:22:

      C++ is a swift ticket to a commoditized dead end job. If you want to make bank you need to learn how to develop mobile applications (e.g. Objective C for iOS, Java SDK for Android). Even though you're safe from outsourcing (offshore sucks out loud in native mobile apps), you'll still be competing against new college grads with exact same skillset as you have each and every spring. Good times, good times.

      I'm a winner in IT. I literally have 0 advice for new college students other than : avoid IT like the plague, it's intellectual factory work that is almost completely commoditized.

      Delete
    5. I have more than ten years' experience with C++ but haven't had a job in software development since 2001.

      Delete
  15. These conferences are irrelevant circle jerks and always have been. No criminal cartel will ever voluntarily reform itself. Especially when you consider that most of the panelists listed come from TTTs that could not exist if their law schools were subject to true market conditions.

    The best way to combat the scam is to keep getting the word out to prospectives. As even the cartel is acknowledging that applications are dropping precipitously, this strategy is working. Lawprof's new eBook serves a far more useful purpose than organizing a "hot topic" panel for the deadenders attending this silly conference.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This blog and the other scam blogs are irrelevant circle jerks too!

      Good company!

      Delete
    2. And yet here you are, anonymous internet troll....

      Delete
  16. The Deaning in the New Normal panel seems right on point.

    ReplyDelete
  17. @JD Painterguy
    "A lot of the negative comments say that I am crazy. Or a drunk. Or Lazy. Or stupid. Or too stupid to pass the Bar Exam, and so on."

    I agree with all!

    ReplyDelete
  18. Northern Illinois Law should be closed down. There are too many law schools in Illinois.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Even the U of Illinois, long regarded as a "Top 25" law school, has managed to discredit itself.

      Delete
  19. @7:22, I may not even be good enough to get my laptop to open a window to respond to you directly when I hit "reply," but I do know that we are graduating about 3x more STEM grads every year in the US than the economy can absorb. Sound familiar? It should.

    What, you don't believe me? You believe the politicians and tech companies who say they can't find qualified workers so they can bring foreign scientists on work visas to toil for pennies? Well, go read the article "What Scientist Shortage?" in the Columbia Journalism Review, for one. There have been recent articles in the WashPo and USA Today about this phenomenon. Comp sci is no different than law. Too many applicants. Not enough jobs.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This is false. There are lots of jobs for talented coders. The problem is a CS degree doesn't make you a talented coder, and unlike law, coders are hired on merit.

      Delete
    2. I can point you to many who were hired despite not being able to write one line of code.

      Delete
  20. Maybe I am dumb, but I don't understand the "Category Five" reference. Is that a book or a work of fiction or something?

    ReplyDelete
  21. Hurricane Categories.

    ReplyDelete
  22. To JD Painterguy:

    If you like doing it, keep blogging. I wouldn't worry about hurting the scam blog movement. When I first read the comments to Campos's wonderful posts, my first (and lasting) impression is that his followers are petty, angry, usually well off point, vindictive, obstructionist, and mean-spirited. I could go on and be more descriptive, but my point is that you're likely not ruining or harming anything. Instead, many of the people following Campos (as well as many of the other blogs) are already very harmful to the movement. I doubt that anyone can do much more harm.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You hate his followers because they all know who you are.

      Delete
    2. "my first (and lasting) impression is that his followers are petty, angry, usually well off point, vindictive, obstructionist, and mean-spirited."

      And this is different from Campos' detractors/law professor trolls, how?

      Delete
    3. That's a good point.

      The commenters on this and the other scam blogs totally detract from any sympathy or empathy anyone might even want to have about the debtors.

      This place would be much better served if there were no comments, but Paul uses these comments to stroke his own ego, among other things.

      Delete
    4. I only look at this site for the comments.

      Delete
    5. Wouldn't Campos' colleagues love it if there were no comments here. That way they could slander Campos without having their bullshit arguments repeatedly shut down.

      Delete
    6. Why do you insist on considering the commentors as if we are a group of identical people.

      I have posted more than once to try to refute this idea, as have others.

      I have a biglaw job at a V10 corporate firm. I also have no debt. I also went to a CCN school. I have no worries about my career right now.

      I still strongly object to the lies that schools have been dispensing for years. This current post about this ridiculous academic conference just reinforces the idea that schools only care about their image, their bottom line and getting asses in the seats. None of these panels even begin to address the employment statistics for grads.

      Come on, they are worried about marketing their brand so they can stay in business. They are not at all worried about the reasons why their brand has been exposed as worthless.

      Delete
  23. The only way to rebuild your brand is to get your students jobs. And to cut your outrageous tuition.

    When will the schools finally get this?

    There is no brand rebuilding when there are no jobs that will allow your students to repay the money they borrowed to attend.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The workshop is about smoke and mirrors. Not "How can we improve substantively?", but "How can we pull the wool over more people's eyes?".

      Delete
  24. I don't hate them. They bring me some level of entertainment, in fact. I also feel horrible for anyone who took out debt to go to law school (or to buy a house at the peak of the market, etc.). My main point is that JD Painterguy should keep writing if he wants to, and shouldn't worry about hurting the "movement." And I suppose my other point is that I was somewhat surprised by the drop off in the quality of thought and writing from Campos's posts to the comments. That's certainly no reason to hate anyone, but it undeniably hurts the movement, as it moves from Campos's objectivity to more of an "ax to grind" mentality.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Jennifer Rosato has been making it a habit of jumping from one TTT school to another. First it was Brooklyn, then it was Drexel, and now it is Northern Illinois Law. Lady, do something productive with your life, and quit being a scummy cesspool hopping charlatan.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. She is doing something productive. She is making money off you and your loans.

      Delete
  26. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  27. I love trollin', broke-ass suckas!!!

    ReplyDelete
  28. When will she make it to Third Tier Drake? However, it is making slight improvements each year - as it is now the 104th greatest law school where it was the 110th most phenomenal law school the year prior. As some posters have mentioned on my blog, perhaps my writing skills have actually helped this turd move up in the USN&WR rankings.

    To the anonymous loser who posted at 10:20 am,

    Internet trolling is for eunuchs. You clearly fit the profile.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hey Nando. You're gay.

      Delete
    2. Nando, you are also someone who needs to walk away. You admitted as much on Painter's blog today, when you wrote that it's just you and him and some other dude I've never heard of who are still scamblogging.

      Because scamblogging is old news. Blogs like Inside the Law School Scam have taken it to the next level and started to discuss the issues intelligently and really drive reform and progress by collaborating, analysing, exposing, debating, and pushing new boundaries. Yours lies in the past, mentally and intellectually. Pics of poo and cut-and-pasted text where you just change a few names is getting boring. Actually, it got boring about six months after you started. It doesn't shock anymore. It's like Victorian porn - hardcore at the time, but today, it's just a lady pulling up her skirt to show her underpants. Times have changed. Campos is the new XXX.

      The movement has gone on without you. Pics of poo do as much good for us as Painter's poetic musings. It gives people a reason to look and laugh for a few minutes (mainly at you, rather than with you, as some of your more recent and desperate targets demonstrate), then move on to the next website.

      Campos is taking us somewhere. You were once the leader, but now you're just dead weight. You've got to innovate, as Campos is doing, not perform the same boring old routine once a week like some washed up cabaret singer trotting out the "classics" to a karaoke backtrack in a shitty little Vegas off-strip nightclub, reminiscing about the good old days when you and Painter were the Scamblog Rat Pack.

      Time to pack it up. I feel sorry for you though, because everyone on the internet knows your name and what you've been doing. And we, us here, thank you for it. You were a pioneer in your day. But like a tattoo, your internet reputation is cool for a while, then it's embarrassing and stops you getting jobs.

      Delete
    3. I think Nando should focus solely on individuals - the assclowns that fervently defend the law school scam. His take down of Jack Marshall for example was great. His expose of TTT law schools on the other hand has gotten pretty boring.

      Delete
    4. "Campos is the new XXX"

      Awesome!

      Delete
    5. How can a move from 110th to 104th on a bullshit ranking be considered an improvement? Even if the ranking were meaningful, those positions would be equivalent. Anything below the top couple of dozen might as well be Thomas Fucking Cooley.

      Delete
    6. Yikes at the Anonymous 1:10PM post. Perhaps some in this so-called "Movement" need to chill out.

      Delete
    7. Damn...after that ass-raping by 1:10 I think we're gonna soon see Nando writing poetry in the comments section of blogs as well :)

      Nando's schtick got boring really, really quickly. And yes, it does nothing for the "movement" at this point other than detract and make it look less serious than it is.

      Delete
  29. @8:24 A qualified programmer can easily get a good job. A not-so-good one will have more trouble. This is true in any field. Programming is easier (in terms of getting a job) than law by a long shot, as are accounting and a host of other fields.

    The unemployment rate is 8 percent, not 80 percent. So if you are good at what you do, you can get a decent or better job. Your immediate reaction might be to pad this 8 percent figure, and I'd say that is just another example of giving up.

    The key is finding something you're good at that you can paid for. Just languishing around deciding that you're doomed, that everything you try will fail for this reason or that, will not change anything.

    ReplyDelete
  30. what's funny is that even at an absolute toilet like Northern Illinois, the Dean has a BA from Cornell and a JD from UPenn - because of prestige whoring in the academy, the professors and deans throughout the tiers are products of HYS or at least T14 and all wear the same blinders about the crisis in the legal profession - none of them can do simple math: you can't plug 45,000 grads into 22,000 jobs

    ReplyDelete
  31. NYT has blog up promoting NerdWallet online law school comparison tool based on law school self reported employment numbers

    ReplyDelete
  32. Interestingly, in this "recovery" there are 4.5 people seeking every 1 job.

    Recovery summer was declared over two years ago.

    ReplyDelete
  33. to the poster at 1:10 pm, nando has played a major part in this movement. Yes, Campos has taken it to a new level, but there is always a place for any scamblogger, doing whatever. I deleted my blog for personal reasons, but I plan to get back into it with a huge number of youtube videos....someday. Quit dissing Nando. The odds are very good that whoever you are, he did a lot more than you did for this movement.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Speaking of youtube efforts (a good idea) did you happen to catch that video of a law student calling his dean for a refund? He recorded a phone conversation that he had with her. I haven't been able to find it since I first saw it.

      Delete
    2. I am currently reading "Failing Law Schools" by Brian Tamanaha and Nando got several shout-outs from him.

      Nando, despite his foul pictures and his profanity-laced beatdowns (which I adore), has made a difference.

      Delete
    3. Nando has repeatedly refused to admit new scambloggers to his inner circle, and has aggresively chased off many pre-Campos intelligent, thoughtful scambloggers like Kimber when he thought they were taking away too much attention from him. This is, or was, an ego trip for Nando. There's not room for more scambloggers while he calls the shots.

      Well, at least until he was usurped by Campos!

      Delete
    4. Fernando's Fragile EgoSeptember 20, 2012 at 4:40 PM

      "Well, at least until he was usurped by Campos!"

      And even then, Fernando pizzed and moaned throughout the first several months of this blogsite.

      Fer Crapsakes, the thing that bothered him most was that LP didn't list TTT on a "blogroll".

      Grow up, little girlie. Sheesh.

      Delete
    5. Painter has repeatedly come here and pretended that this was "his" blog. Nando does the same: comes here and posts, just to get exposure.

      Does anyone read TTT or JDP anymore?

      It's sad that some bloggers get more exposure as commenters on someone else's blog than they do on their own.

      I can hear crickets on JDP's blog, and Nando's blog has comments only by what I think are some characters that he has created (like that Kentucky Fried Chicken thing that's equally overcooked). It's like a fucking cemetary over there most of the time.

      Delete
    6. Leave Brittney ALONESeptember 20, 2012 at 6:44 PM

      "Does anyone read TTT or JDP anymore?"

      No, or at least, not me.

      Delete
    7. Stop talking to yourself (above four "commenterS").

      Delete
  34. @ 11:30,

    And they have never even come remotely close to doing the utter sh*t law 90% of the TTT grads will wind up practicing!

    ReplyDelete
  35. Just got through reading your book. A great read!

    ReplyDelete
  36. Reignite and Renew: How To Rebrand in a Down Economy and Bad Press Moderator Michelle Allison of Thomas Jefferson Law School Speaker Angela Dalfen Golden Gate University Law School. Well they are the experts in rebranding or at least the need for it. Thomas Jefferson is the worst law school in Southern California and Golden Gate the worst in the Bay Area. Unknown out of their areas, their degrees are toxic to a resume within them. Thomas Jefferson had 236 graduates in 2011. Of these 11 got jobs with law firms of more than 11 attorneys. 10 got (or kept) jobs with the government and 2 are employed in public interest. Put another way only 23 got real legal jobs. As for the other 213 graduates, the average law school debt was $145,000 so God help them. Golden Gate, with 191 graduates overall, had 44 graduates with real legal jobs; 33 with firms 7 with the government, and 4 in public interest. The bar passage rate at one of these schools recently dipped below 35%. William Ockham

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Jobs with the government? Maybe janitor.

      Don't be too quick to assume that those jobs require a JD.

      Delete
  37. The band played music and went down with the Titanic.

    ReplyDelete
  38. As a Golden Gate Law grad, I have no idea what Angie Dalfen (who is a very nice woman) is going to say that could possibly productive....it's the whole Upton Sinclair quote about not understanding...

    ReplyDelete
  39. Google is your new World GummintSeptember 20, 2012 at 4:38 PM

    JustAClown writes, "I deleted my blog for personal reasons, but..."


    No problemo, Dude(tte). We can retrieve your blog any time we want via Google Cache or the WayBack, etc.


    Don't think we can't find you, `Clown.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Leave Brittney ALONESeptember 20, 2012 at 4:50 PM

    For the guy jacking on/stalking JDP (and I do think it's essentially one person).

    Lay off, wuss. You're much like the 5th grade ES bully picking on the socially awkward 3rd grader.

    You perceive that he's relatively defenseless, so you just keep peckin' away.

    Seriously, grow up.

    Painter may be an irritating twit, but you're just plain pathetic.

    My two cents, as usual. YMMV.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The picking is valid. This isn't a schoolyard where all that is at stake is a fucking piece of chocolate. This is an issue that robs people of hundreds of thousands of dollars and years of their lives.

      So bullshit like Painter needs to be stamped the fuck out. This is too big of a deal to let some clown like Painter pretend that it's all a big fucking game to keep him entertained while he fucks around and avoids reality.

      When Painter posts, he makes us look dumb. And when we look dumb, my chances of ever getting out of my fucking loan/lawschool mess diminish. So I take it personally.

      Delete
    2. Leave Brittney ALONESeptember 20, 2012 at 6:43 PM

      @ 5:27, I'm sorry you're so imperceptive.

      @ 5:34, how do you know that your coarse language used isn't as off-putting to visiting potential supporters as is JDP's maundering posts?

      Delete
    3. Leave Brittney ALONESeptember 20, 2012 at 6:49 PM

      "When Painter posts, he makes us look dumb. "


      Sorry, forgot to add above, that it is also a fact that when you post, you make you look dumb, not to mention ignorant and uneducated.

      How did you even manage to get into LS in the first place? (Unless it was Cooley.... 'nuff said there.)

      I mean, seriously, you need to use the f-bomb 5 times in a 6-sentence post?

      Are you really so intellectually limited?

      Delete
    4. It isn't just one person who wants JDPainter to go away. Trust.

      Delete
    5. Painter and the guy who uses the f-word all the time. Both repulsive.

      Delete
  41. I think it's downright funny that people are criticizing Campos for charging $5 for a book when law professors make lots of money off casebooks that cost $150 and are mainly cuts and pastes of case law.

    Law school publishing: another scam.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Oh, and don't forget that the textbook buyers offer good money for the professor's free examination copies.

      They come right to the professor's office and offer them cash on the spot.

      No fuss, no muss.

      Delete
    2. I have never heard of anyone buying a copy of an exam from a professor. I think this is a made-up story. I think a professor should be fired if they sell copies of a practice exam that should be available for free.

      Most schools have banks where you can get old exams. I don't believe this story. I've spend a lot of the past few years on TLS and no one from any school has ever suggested this has happened.

      Delete
    3. 11:37 Your reading comprehension needs serious improvement. @5:07 is not talking about law school professors selling exams. Read the post again. S/he is talking about textbooks.

      BTW: if you want to be taken seriously about anything, don't use TLS as your evidence.

      Delete
    4. Ah true my reading comprehension when I am skimming is bad. I hope I gave you a few laughs!

      I am very serious about TLS though. People post a lot of questions and information so it is possible to get a little snap shot into the mind of 0Ls and people in school.

      I think that just in the past year or two there has been a shift in the advice given on TLS and people are fighting the scam there too. It is just on a case by case basis.

      Delete
  42. To be worthwhile the conference should feature a hunger games format with various TTTT deans respresenting their respective cesspits. Lose your dean, lose your school. Only then would the odds always be in our favor. :)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You just know that Dean Z sees herself as Katniss. :)

      Delete
  43. And Painter is now causing Third Tier Reality to implode in a mess of anti-Semitic rants and anti-Painter comments.

    This shit has to stop.

    But more interestingly, Nando has personally continued actively posting comments to his own latest diatribe a full twelve hours (minimum) since there was a disgusting anti-Semitic series of comments. He cannot have failed to have seen them, yet he certainly failed to remove them.

    What's the matter, Nando? Do you agree with the sentiments of your Jew-hating followers? You need to get a grip on reality, son.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Leave Brittney ALONESeptember 20, 2012 at 6:53 PM

      "And Painter is now causing Third Tier Reality to implode in a mess of anti-Semitic rants "

      Huh? I had him (his family) figured for Polish orthodox Catholics.

      Delete
  44. Prof. Campos, you forgot the most important seminar of all:

    COVERING YOUR ASS
    Led by the dean of the East Bumblefuck Skool of Law

    Lately various people have had the unmitigated gall to attack the legal academy, especially institutions such as mine. In this seminar, we shall explore techniques of denial. Heaven knows that we can't keep the racket going forever, but judicious management may maintain it for another year or two.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Talmudical.blogspot.com

    ReplyDelete
  46. "A house divided against itself cannot stand." - AL. Remember that when you read the posts of these obsessive trolls and their calls for Campos to remove anonymous comments, or their recommendations that certain scambloggers walk away.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I would prefer if the comments at least were somewhat related to the subject of the post. But I would never tell someone not to comment. The off-topic comments are pretty easy to ignore.

      I would also prefer it if the commentators were more polite to each other. I don't see the need to put other people down.

      I am bothered more by the people who assume that everyone who comments here has the same background, instead of realizing that there are a variety of people posting here, including some that are doing alright practicing law. You don't have to be a victim to want to stop others from being victimized.

      But, I would never tell those people to stop posting.

      People are going to post whatever is on their mind.

      Delete
    2. Agreed. I also practice and do fine, but still want to see this taxpayer-funded scheme put to an end.

      And I wouldn't ever tell someone not to post (even though I think some posters do more harm than good). Many law school apologists, on the other hand, do. They champion more division and silence.

      Delete
  47. Parent Loans
    Son’s Death Leaves Mom with Big Tax Bill on Forgiven Student Loan Debt

    http://www.abajournal.com/mobile/article/sons_death_leaves_mom_with_big_tax_bill_on_forgiven_student_loan_debt/?utm_source=maestro&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weekly_email

    ReplyDelete
  48. are there any new reforms on the way or did it all stop with the "full-time long-term JD required" stats?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Reforms" will do little at this point. Law school applications and enrollment are down so drastically that many law schools are going to fall apart in the next couple of years if they don't entirely restructure themselves.

      Delete
  49. To the person recommending programming as a good career in law, a few caveats from one neck deep in the industry:
    - mobile is the only skillset not (yet) currently commoditized and in imminent danger of outsourcing to third world computer serfs
    - you can earn a decent wage (~$50K) quickly and ramp that up to 80-90 in a few years if you're competent. You have then capped out salary wise for your career unless you move into a leadership position, which means a reduction in your technical skills (the very skills that got you your job).
    - your technical skillset lasts 2-3 years at most, at which point you have to completely retrain/rebrand. You are also competing against new college grads with 0 experience but exact same skillset. Experience is NOT paid a premium in this industry - skillset is what drives salary, experience is secondary.
    - be prepared to work with really antisocial, introverted weirdos and be painted by your association with said crowd.
    - be prepared to be asked to fix every possible computer problem under the sun because none of your friends/relatives know the difference between software engineering, database design or user experience creation ("He works in computers!")

    I could go on for pages on this. IT is most def. NOT a free ticket to the middle class that people keep posting.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Amazing! I'm really enjoying the design and style of your web site. Are you using a custom template or is this freely available to all individuals? If you don't want to say the
    name of it out in the public, please e-mail
    me. I'd love to get my hands on this theme! Thanks.

    ReplyDelete

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