Wednesday, April 4, 2012

Michigan Law School discloses more information

This weekend I noted I'd been informed by a current Michigan Law student that the school had a very large "post-graduate fellowship" program, which involves unemployed graduates securing volunteer positions with government or non-profit legal employers, and then getting paid a small amount of money by the law school on a temporary basis.  I asked the school to pass along any clarifications or corrections regarding this information.

Yesterday, UMLS posted a great deal of information about the program, which apparently has existed for seven years now, but whose existence was not a matter of public record until 24 hours ago.  The program pays up to $4000 over 12 weeks (this is equivalent to an annual salary of $17,000).  Apparently most graduates enter and depart the program in the fall after graduation,

The permanent positions fellows obtain vary. For the class of 2010, 61 graduating students obtained a postgraduate fellowship. Of the 53 who remained in ongoing communication with the Office of Career Planning, 27 obtained permanent post-Fellowship legal employment with government or public interest agencies, 12 began work as law firm associates, 4 went into business, and 3 accepted federal judicial clerkships. The remaining 7 people were still seeking permanent employment at the close of their fellowship: 3 held legal positions that were either part-time or not permanent; 2 continued their education in another field; and 2 remained unemployed.

For the class of 2011—the class widely believed to be most hard-hit by the constriction in legal employment, because of a dramatic decrease in the size of summer-associate classes in 2010—75 students were awarded Postgraduate Fellowships. At the nine-month mark for accumulation of final NALP data, 8 of our graduates were still in their funded fellowship positions, which there is every reason to believe will result—as did the great majority of 2010 Fellowships—in long-term legal positions. Of the remaining 67 graduates, 54 had moved to permanent positions, while 13 remained unemployed. We will post more detailed 2011 postgraduate statistics once we have final data for the 8 graduates who remain in their funded Fellowship positions.
It is of course a step forward that UMLS has disclosed this information.  What's unfortunate is that the school appears to have engaged in material misrepresentation to admitted students regarding it less than a week ago. As a commenter notes in the previous thread on this topic, admitted students who were visiting UMLS last week were told that the post-graduate fellowship program for the class of 2011 employed eight graduates, i.e. two percent of the class, rather than the 20% of the class (75 graduates) that actually took such fellowships (I have heard the same information from other attendees).  The career services office's explanation for this discrepancy is that when prospective students were given the smaller number, the CSO was only referring to those graduates who were in fellowships as of the NALP reporting deadline.

Now this sort of thing would constitute perjury if offered as sworn testimony in a court of law, as it is actually far more materially misleading than simply refusing to acknowledge the existence of a fellowship program at all. (I am told that a similarly misleading account of the program was given to the faculty). Of course the UMLS administration isn't under oath -- at the moment anyway -- so it is free to tell half (really more like one tenth) truths while suffering no consequences other than yet more bad publicity.

On the plus side (sort of) UMLS has also just engaged in a massive data dump in regard to the specific employment outcomes for its last three graduating classes, becoming as far as I know the first law school to actually list the employment outcomes for every individual graduate in those classes.  This is a positive development in that it certainly allows a "sophisticated consumer" to spend a few hours figuring out, with the help of Google etc., more or less what everyone who graduated from UMLS in the last three years was doing nine months after graduation.  The down side is that this blizzard of information does require considerable work to unpack, especially to the extent that one doesn't understand things such as what the likely salary of somebody working as an entry level associate with a 12-person law firm in Southfield is likely to be.

Speaking of which, the percentage of graduates whose salaries were known is misreported on the law school's web site, apparently as a consequence of an inconsistent reporting method.  For the classes of 2009 and 2010 the school reports the percentage of graduates whose salaries were known among those graduates who were in jobs for which bar passage was required.  For the class of 2011 it reports the percentage of known salaries for the entire class. Besides (apparently inadvertently) shifting the method employed to make the relevant calculation, the CSO also got the latter number slightly wrong, reporting it as 52% when it was 50.26%.

The more interesting number in all this is the remarkable contraction in the percentage of UMLS graduates getting jobs of any kind (full-time, part-time, long-term, short-term) that require bar passage, from 94.4% in 2009 to 79.1% two years later (77% not counting the eight remaining post-graduate fellows). In other words, using the most liberal possible definition of what counts as a legal job, nearly a quarter of the 2011 graduating class of a top ten law school didn't have one nine months after graduation.

I have a lot more to say regarding all these new numbers, especially in regard to the relationship between the salaries UMLS graduates are being paid a year after graduation relative to the cost of attending the school, but I'll save that for another post.

115 comments:

  1. From a top ten school.

    If any prospective student is reading this entry, keep that in mind. If the situation is this bad at a perennial top ten law school, imagine the prevailing job market for second tier sewers, third tier commodes, and fourth tier trash heaps.

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  2. You know I think this situation has to border on criminal behavior. They are obviously providing these paid internships to get around the 9 month after graduation statistical timeframe. Someone should be held accountable for this. Can you imagine, how much this is going on at other schools.

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  3. Wow! I guess this is what happens when you spend all your time doing a blog instead of legal scholarship. I was at the "talk" Campos gave at Michigan last week and the "source" of his "facts" was a single disgruntled student (who, by the way, said he paid out of his own pocket for Campos' airfare - How much do you make "Prof." Campos?)

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    1. But the source was correct. The inquiry into the true nature of the fellowships resulted in a more complete disclosure by the school. This disclosure backed up the facts that the student gave lawprof. Most important- students can now see the whole story, even if they have to go to two different places on the website to see it.

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  4. This obviously isn't criminal behavior, because "[b]y anyone's definition, reasonable consumers -- college graduates -- seriously considering law schools are a sophisticated subset of education consumers, capable of sifting through [erroneous, misleading, flat-out lies masquerading as hard] data and weighing alternatives before making a decision regarding their post-college options, such as applying for professional school[, committing financial harakiri or - in the case of law school - both]."

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  5. I bet 9:17 is really scared of what Urban Meyer is going to do to his school's football team on the last day of the regular season for each and every year in the foreseeable future.

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  6. 9:17: Does it bother you that Michigan was of last week lying to admitted students about its fellowship program? Now "lying" is admittedly an unpleasant term. Perhaps I should say "engaging in highly selective disclosure." Or you could call it truthiness I suppose.

    What exactly can a law school do that won't lead someone to defend it?

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  7. @9.17 - I "read" your "comment" and it looks like you are "talking" "bollocks". Lawprof already said faculty had been told the same thing - so it looks like that student wasn't his only source.

    @Lawprof - I sure hope the above commenter wasn't telling the truth about the student covering your airfare.

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  8. FORAP: My trip to UMLS was sponsored by a dozen student groups. How they chose to handle the expenses (which were fairly minimal in that they consisted of nothing but airfare) is their own business.

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  9. This should be a lesson to all the worthless do-nothing law professors out there who questioned the value of starting this blog.  I'm talking about the ones who tried to downplay the contribution Campos was making, and tried to excuse their own refusal to publicize these issues on their own blogs.  Merely writing about these things on a blog is useless, they said, it can't change anything.

    Campos is now forcing transparancy through his writing.  So could the rest of you, you could help him, if you weren't such worthless cowards.  

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  10. This should be a lesson to all the worthless do-nothing law professors out there who questioned the value of starting this blog

    A million times THIS. Some people love to crow about the supposedly useless circle-jerk theorizing that goes on in the the online discourse, and yet here's an example of a direct, tangible result.

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  11. LawProf,

    You do nothing but diminish your own reputation when you engage in back and forth in the comment section of your blog.

    Posting is one thing, getting defensive and addressing silly comments is another. Why do you continue to let folks drag you down to their level? (Hint: DON'T ANSWER THIS HERE)

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  12. Skype is sometimes a better option...

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  13. Sometimes Skype is a better option...

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    1. Sorry for the double post.

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  14. "The program pays up to $4000 over 12 weeks (this is equivalent to an annual salary of $17,000). "

    excellent paranthetical

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    1. When I first read this, I thought it was 4000 a month. This amount seems very low for a law school to pay students.

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  15. @LawProf/9:35 a.m.:

    If you're a law professor or administrator? Pretty much nothing.

    They certainly aren't making it a feature of their recruitment, and maybe they should. "Welcome to Michigan Law, the T10 win-win school. Even if you strike out at OCI, we'll return 3% of your total student outlay as a fellowship."

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  16. Speaking of which, the percentage of graduates whose salaries were known is misreported on the law school's web site . . . the CSO also got the latter number slightly wrong, reporting it as 52% when it was 50.26%.

    ------------------

    That's crap. Tier 2 schools like Ohio State get a 50% salary reporting rate. Why would someone want to pay a fortune to go to a school in a bankrupt state where only 50% of its graduates report having a salary upon graduation?

    Keep in mind the same number, for Chicago, was over 90%.

    90% to 50%.

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  17. I just want to thank Michigan for, at least, doing something for they're unemployed grads.

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  18. "I just want to thank Michigan for, at least, doing something for they're unemployed grads."

    Let me fix that for you: I just want to thank M for, at least, doing something for their US News ranking.

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  19. @10:23 a.m.:

    I also hear that the staff doesn't call the police if any of them see kids in Michigan sweatshirts digging in the dumpsters behind the building. What true sweethearts.

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  20. 10:23, What they are doing for their graduates is almost insignificant. $4,000 dollars over 12 weeks amounts to about 333 dollars a week. If you work full time, you are earning less than $8.50 an hour. Now, the assumption is you get some quick legal experience and are sheltered from complete unemployment, but I doubt that sum is even enough to cover a month's cost of living in Ann Arbor. The school can make back almost everything it spends on these graduates from a year's worth of tuition from just 6 students.

    If you ask me its a very small price that Michigan has to pay in order to appear like a benevolent institution that genuinely cares about its student even though the school was simultaneously misrepresenting employment data to naive 0Ls and the general public so it can keep banking on the cash-cow of law school tuition.

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  21. You can make more than this in a job requiring a vest and a nametag.

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  22. I have friends who graduated from UCLA and Cal who were granted a similar fellowship. Accordingly, Cal paid their students around $3,000 per month for working 32 hours a week. UCLA paid their students around $2,000 per month for working 24 hours a week. Of course, UCLA and Cal counted this fellowship as employment for reporting purposes.

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  23. I forgot to add it was a 4 month program but most of them were granted a 2 month extension.

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  24. This is a blatant attempt to juke the stats. Just because they "help" students in this way doesn't mean they have to count them as employed. If this were really about help, they wouldn't.

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  25. Does anybody know what students in these "fellowship" programs actually do?

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  26. @ 12:03: I am an attorney at a non-profit legal organization in NYC and supervise volunteer attorneys, who in the past months have included recent grads of Harvard, Yale, NYU, Michigan, and other schools. Volunteers from the latter two schools (at least) were paid small stipends by their schools through a "fellowship" program. I assume those schools report these individuals as employed in public interest jobs, though these volunteer positions are not stepping stones to a job in my organization, simply because there are no job openings.

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  27. There are bathroom attendants in NYC that make more than these "prestigious" graduates employed through their school's fellowship program. Shit, I made more than that 20 years ago before I went to law school. It is criminal what these schools are doing and it is even more shameful that they are trying to disguise it as some charity towards the less fortunate graduates.

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  28. The first 12:23,
    I agree regarding NYC, although I don't know why anyone would choose to spend their fellowship time in such an expensive and highly saturated area. One would have better luck in a smaller, less "desirable" area. For example, at the completion of my fellowship in a legal services organization (not in NYC obviously) I was offered a job. Turnover is so high in legal services organizations that if you're in there and know what you're doing there's a good chance it can turn into a job for you.

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  29. This is why you need to continue your blog. Without you, this kind of information would never have come out.

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  30. @12:50 A fair number of people at HY, at least, are well-to-do or really wealthy. They are the same kind of people who take gap years and travel, or work in jobs or places where they have no intention of remaining. That may not account for everyone, but it accounts for some because I know them. There is a lot of money out there.

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  31. 1:18,
    Fair enough, I agree there's plenty with more money than brains.
    12:50

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  32. The HELP percentage is roughly 60%. Not good.

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  33. @12:50 --Why is it a question of brains?

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  34. I would like you to name any T14 LS who does not do this. Because the ALL Do.. One just disclosed.

    AND Prof those student with their HUGE student loans collecting their group pennies to pay your air fare?

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  35. Roughly 60% of Michigan grads have acceptable employment outcomes for a T14 school. That is a devastating revelation.

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  36. Why do people come here to post comments hating on Campos? Why don't you go where the Kool-Aid is nice and cool. You could just peruse the placement information pages of law schools all day and be much happier in your twisted, comfortable version of reality.

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  37. Dude, spending $350 on airfare to have Campos speak at your school is probably the best use of discretionary income there is.

    I am tempted to pay the man myself to just hang out.

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  38. 1:26,
    I was talking about common sense.

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  39. Count your lucky stars. An escort has to take it in an orifice from at least 10 men, for hours, to earn $4,000. Not including the prep time and commute.

    Did Michigan ask any of its people to take it up an orifice? No you say? OK then.

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  40. At 2:09-- Still don't get it. If a person spends a year doing something he/she wants to do -- and they are rich enough to do that without any problem, common sense is not a part of the equation. I thought you said you didn't understand why anyone would volunteer at a public interest outfit in so expensive a place as NYC. I was just saying that for some people money is not the issue that it might be for you-- and certainly was for me when I graduated. There were things I could not afford to do that a number of my HY classmates could afford to do-- volunteer, work in low paying jobs that interested them, take time off, buy houses or apartments.

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  41. Who cares if LawProf paid for his flight by stealing vitamins out of the mouths of blind orphans?

    We should focus on the fact that, had he not gone, Michigan would still be lying to their prospective students.

    I am baffled how we can call this anything other than a job well done?

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  42. "Acceptable?" Acceptable is defined by the person who accepts, no one else. Looks like more than 90 percent found acceptable jobs.

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  43. The original post led me to think that none of these people got jobs. That turns out not to be the case, which is good.

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  44. OK I missed this, but you have to admit this chart is pretty damn transparent.

    http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classstats/Pages/employerstats.aspx

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  45. LawProf,

    Regarding the quote, "The permanent positions fellows obtain vary. For the class of 2010, 61 graduating students obtained a postgraduate fellowship." ... where can you see this data in the above link transparent chart? I don't see any row labelled "postgraduate fellowship" with 61 graduates.

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  46. lol @ the Skadden numbers. 2009, 11 to skadden. 2010, 7 to skadden. 2011, zero to skadden.

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  47. ALL ..Each & every one of the students who graduated from University of Michigan Law School in 2008 & 2009..ALL have jobs... Most paying 6 figures with great benefits
    and if you have the time & you find the graduating list on Google..then pick a name any name, then google that name & you will find most at BigLaw very comfortably.

    Some body is yanking your chain...

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  48. For 12 student groups to sponsor a $350 plane ticket, each group only has to kick in $30. If the student groups at UM are like those at CLS, the money is only indirectly from the students' pockets because the student senate gives all the student groups pretty flexible discretionary budgets.

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  49. re 3:25, could these postgraduate fellowships be those things that deferred biglaw associates take (while their biglaw firm pays them like $80k per year?)

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  50. "rather than the 20% of the class (75 graduates) that actually took such fellowships "

    Where on the 'data dump' chart are these 75 graduates?! someone needs to explain this huge discrepancy.

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  51. Couldn't those 75 be either in jobs or unemployed lists?

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  52. The admissions office was upfront about the fact that only 8 people's fellowship was what was getting reported to NALP (as opposed to only 8 people using one of those fellowships). The student(s) who said that admissions claimed that only 8 people took fellowships probably wasn't paying much attention. They really were honest about it.

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  53. 3:29,
    I personally know one 2009 Michigan grad who is now unemployed.

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  54. Here is one reason why Michigan might want to disclose more information about the employers listed on the "employers" page linked by LawProf above. Google Anderson & Anderson, one of the first firms listed. The first law firm to appear in response is: http://andersonllp.com/, a Dallas firm that bills itself as "the premier City of Dallas traffic ticket and warrant law firm."

    Now, that could be the firm that Michigan's 2011 grad joined, and I have nothing against defending citizens against vicious traffic tickets. But if it happens to be a different Anderson & Anderson (I found an intriguing variety through Google), Michigan might want to make that clear.

    Another, better reason to disclose more information is that it would inform prospective students, current students, and faculty. To plan for the future--both individually and institutionally--all of those groups need more helpful information about what type of work recent graduates are performing. Are the students at these organizations serving as traditional associates? Do they hold short-term fellowships? Are they document reviewers?

    Law schools need to stop playing marketing games and start acting as academic institutions. In my book, that means providing information that informs and educates. Michigan is far from the worst on this--indeed, they've provided more information than many schools. But where's the spirit, at any law school, of really trying to illuminate the job market? That, among many reasons, is why this blog is so essential.

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  55. @Morse Code for J,

    "They certainly aren't making it a feature of their recruitment, and maybe they should. "Welcome to Michigan Law, the T10 win-win school. Even if you strike out at OCI, we'll return 3% of your total student outlay as a fellowship."

    LOL. Michigan is the Discover Card of law schools.

    Unfortunately, too many other schools are doing the same thing.

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  56. 2:53

    Acceptable is defined by what one expects by going to an elite law school. You don't go to law school and pay 200k to get "a job"--you can do that out of high school or college. There is no reason to define down what is acceptable to make excuses for these people. In coming to the 60% figure, I included the following:

    1. NLJ 250 firms
    2. All clerkships
    3. All public interest jobs
    4. All policy jobs
    5. All federal government jobs
    6. All state government jobs
    7. All local government jobs
    8. All jobs in finance/investment
    9. All management consulting jobs

    If you add these up, you come to roughly 60% using Michigan's own data on the class of 2011. The rest are working at small/mid firms likely paying 60k a year. Go tell someone servicing debt for $1,300 a month for the next thirty years that 3k a month in after-tax income is an acceptable outcome from the University of Michigan School of Law.

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  57. "The permanent positions fellows obtain vary. For the class of 2010, 61 graduating students obtained a postgraduate fellowship. Of the 53 who remained in ongoing communication with the Office of Career Planning, 27 obtained permanent post-Fellowship legal employment with government or public interest agencies, 12 began work as law firm associates, 4 went into business, and 3 accepted federal judicial clerkships. The remaining 7 people were still seeking permanent employment at the close of their fellowship: 3 held legal positions that were either part-time or not permanent; 2 continued their education in another field; and 2 remained unemployed."

    I like how they just gloss over the 8 out of 61 that didn't keep up correspondence. 1/8 of the program very likely still unemployed. Who knows? Goodness knows Michigan can't be bothered to facebook or google them.

    If they ever do require full transparency, I suspect law schools will begin to hire wayward grads as private investigators to track down their classmates, then report them as employed as "forensic specialists."

    How about the four that "went into business?" Were any of the businesses named "Starbucks" or "Target?"

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  58. You can see what happened looking at the Michigan class. A good number got the kind of jobs that Michigan kids would have scoffed at any time before 2008. These were the jobs kids at lower schools used to get. Now those kids have nothing.

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  59. @3:29 How is someone yanking anyones chain? Before today, Michigan refused to post information that most would say is vital to the decision making process of a consumer choosing to dish out six-figures of debt to attend law school. Now this information is posted.

    Shouldn't we be critical of the law school for not disclosing this information before?

    Also, even if everyone from 2008 and 2009 does have a job, "most" is a very loosely defined term referring to as little as 51%. Could you be more specific? Lets be generous and say that 70% have gotten Biglaw and are all rolling in dough; if 30% are working at the other end of the bimodal distribution for lawyers (earning between 45-60k a year) is that an acceptable outcome? Shouldn't the school be disclosing this reality to incoming graduates, explicitly and clearly stating that they have a 1 in 3 chance of not earning an income substantial enough to pay off your loans and lead the modest middle class lifestyle they might expect upon graduating.

    One of the biggest problems is that these law schools are so hesitant to be forthcoming with this information and are incredibly shady about the way they sell the whole "law school" package to incoming students. If you should be critical of anybody yanking somebodies chain, it should be the law schools that have been manipulating and twisting data in their favor for years.

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  60. On the employment list they missed a few firms (O'Melveny & Meyers LLP, Wachtell, & General Motors Legal,)
    Where a few of the Firms are listed and they have a zero ..There were offers & acceptances.

    I know when you are dealing with many Firms & students mistakes & omission will happen.

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  61. (3:29,
    I personally know one 2009 Michigan grad who is now unemployed.)

    4:13....Is his name Br***?

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  62. I spent 8 months in 2010 working next to a 2009 Michigan grad on a doc review in Washington, DC. He never had a permanent job and last I heard he had given up and went back to school for something else. I'd say more but I don't want to identify the guy.

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  63. http://www.law.umich.edu/connection/a2z/Lists/Posts/Post.aspx?ID=88

    A direct response from a UMLS assistant dean.

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  64. For anyone who doesn't want to follow that link, here is the most relevant part:

    ". . . the NALP data we reported this year included only eight of our post-grad fellowship positions; the remaining 67 people have already concluded their fellowships, and appeared in the NALP data either as employed in post-fellowship positions, or as unemployed. In other words, yes, we gave fellowships to roughly 20% of the class—but also, yes, only 8 of those are part of our job statistics. Both those statements are simultaneously true."

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  65. "Finally, a related point. Professor Campos also complains of our failure to make our post-grad fellowships a matter of “public record” until now. We have, however, long had thorough information about the fellowships on our website, albeit in the student password-protected section—because only our students were applying for these fellowships, and there just didn’t seem to be a need to make it more broadly available. Certainly, these programs have been part of the public discourse about law schools, and prospective and current law students alike seem well aware of them. When, after speaking with the student who had questions about the post-graduate fellowships, I concluded that more information to a broader group would be helpful, we endeavored to provide that information."

    So it took 8 years to figure out that information pertaining directly to the job outcomes of Michigan's students would also be relevant to prospective students...

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  66. Seriously, to any law school administrators out there who might be reading this: how on God's green earth do you look at yourselves in the mirror every morning? I am truly curious. You people seem to have no shame. History will not judge you kindly (and in fact is already starting to give you the evil eye).

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  67. "Finally, a related point. Professor Campos also complains of our failure to make our post-grad fellowships a matter of “public record” until now. We have, however, long had thorough information about the fellowships on our website, albeit in the student password-protected section—because only our students were applying for these fellowships, and there just didn’t seem to be a need to make it more broadly available. Certainly, these programs have been part of the public discourse about law schools, and prospective and current law students alike seem well aware of them. When, after speaking with the student who had questions about the post-graduate fellowships, I concluded that more information to a broader group would be helpful, we endeavored to provide that information."

    So it took 8 years for Michigan's administration to figure out that prospective students might be interested in information related to the job outcomes of the school's graduates...

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  68. odd double post there, i apologize.

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  69. I'm glad Michigam explained the difference. But if not pushed, they would never have admitted that 70 students took those fellowships. 70 is high enough number to rate serious attention by students.

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  70. I was an admitted student at Michigan last weekend, and I can vouch for Dean Z's account on her blog

    Readers of this blog need to be wary that Professor Campos, while raising some good and interesting points in his various articles, is manipulating information himself.

    His "account" of how Dean Z discussed the fellowships is simply untrue

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  71. " Seriously, to any law school administrators out there who might be reading this: how on God's green earth do you look at yourselves in the mirror every morning? I am truly curious. You people seem to have no shame. History will not judge you kindly (and in fact is already starting to give you the evil eye)."

    Amen.

    Double Amen.

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  72. "Dean Z" is so cool. She said "truthiness".

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  73. I'm sorry, but Dean Z sounds like she's full of bullshit to me. She should have told the room that 75 (or something close to that) people took the post-grad fellowship. Anything less than that is just the usual lies, spin, and bullshit from law school deans.

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  74. I, too, was in the room when Dean Zearfoss gave her statement, and the way it went down was exactly how she described. Never did she say only 8 people were given the fellowships. Her direct response was that the NALP stats only included 8 people, and she continued to say explicitly that the number of total fellowships was higher but there was not an exact number available at the moment. There was no shadiness going on and no attempt at manipulating data. Dean Zearfoss told the truth and directed admitted students to look at the website for the total number when it was available.

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  75. 8:10- if people like you want to approach this issue so aggressively and from a narrow perspective, that's fine. Your opinions are not going to be ones that people trying to get a real read on this (like me) are going to heed as valuable.

    I simply pointed out in my post from 7:47 that Campos has completely mischaracterized what was said. She told the room that the exact numbers would be online, and that we should check them out! That's not deceptive.

    There are good points to be made about how law schools release this data, but Michigan has been more transparent than others and helpful in clearing up concerns and confusion.

    This blog itself can be helpful and very useful to aspiring law students. I, however, am done reading it. The very type of manipulation that Campos is speaking out against is being perpetuated by his own writing and that of his "supporters" in the comments sections.

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  76. It is good that there were people in the room to give firsthand reports.

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  77. I don't understand why Michigan didn't just tell the whole story. They could have avoided the whole problem. And avoided posting embarrassing cover-ups trying to sound like Steven Colbert. Michigan can't deny that until today they haven't given complete information. Just because they released information today, that doesn't make up for all the time they posted misleading information.

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  78. What about all of the other law schools? Apparently all of the schools do this. Where is their data? (Maybe some have, I haven't looked through all of the top 14 schools' employment sites)

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  79. Exactly 8:23. Just tell the whole story, that's what this entire thing is all about. Law schools engage in selective telling of true facts to paint a distorted picture. And "Dean Z''s failure to disclose the 75 fellowships is just the latest example.

    I don't expect 0Ls to understand. Not now anyway.

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  80. @8:23. But that is no justification for being misleading on this blog--if that is indeed what has happened. You can't be wrong just because someone else was wrong first.

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  81. If Michigan is behaving more ethically than other schools--and it took prodding from Professor Campos to get them to do so--I can only imagine how much the employment statistics at the third- and fourth-tier schools have been manipulated.

    Even though I've never gone to law school, and have never had any intention of going, I want to thank you, Prof. Campos. Anyone who demands truth and fairness deserves no less.

    Now, if we could get other graduate programs to be more honest with prospective students about their chances of working in their fields upon graduation, then we'd see something like sanity.

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  82. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  83. "and this, ladies and gentlemen, is why we have rules against hearsay..."

    Any one who knows anything about BS can see right through this article. I feel bad for you Professor Campos. I know you probably feel like an idiot for ever having started this blog, but the truth of the matter is that you mean more than a million PR statements. I'm not saying you're perfect, but it's clear that you have done something - if nothing else than make people hate you for being honest - and we all need someone who calls it as they see it.

    Congratulations. I sincerely appreciate your work.

    ReplyDelete
  84. My post has nothing to do with the original.

    I have worked 20 hours for each of the past two days doing endless discovery.

    FUCK ME.

    FUCK ME.

    And I'm a fucking "WINNER" in this scam?!

    FUCK ME!

    ReplyDelete
  85. I was also in the lecture hall in which the Dean of Admissions addressed the fellowship question. Just to reiterate what has already been said, her comments were definitely not understood correctly. She said that there would be 8 people under the fellowship as per the data that would soon be posted. She also said that the vast majority ended up leading to permanent, JD-required positions. According to the data provided in this latest post, this seems to have been the case (granted, there is still not an insignificant amount still unemployed, for a top 10 school). I'm failing to see any intentionally deceptive behavior here, which some commenters seem to believe has occurred.
    That all being said, I truly am an ardent supporter of Prof Campos and his blog. I wish I had known about his appearance at UM last weekend. I definitely would have attended.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Something fishy here. Since when would 3 federal judicial clerkships open other than in September? The top students get those clerkships. Not likely for 3 to go to people at Michigan who could not get jobs.

    ReplyDelete
  87. 10:57, if you are making a six figure salary in a biglaw office, please shut up.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Did the admitted students in attendance walk away thinking that participation in this program was closer to 8 than to 75? If so, then "Dean Z" has painted a distorted picture using true facts. Nothing new there, of course, that's the essence of the law school scam.

    ReplyDelete
  89. I think the Michigan Dean's tone is indicative of somebody in the business of manipulating young minds. She's trying to be just a little too "cool" here with her sarcasm and pop culture references.

    ReplyDelete
  90. @8:20 a.m.:

    Her direct response was that the NALP stats only included 8 people, and she continued to say explicitly that the number of total fellowships was higher but there was not an exact number available at the moment.

    So why was there such a disparity between the NALP stats and the total fellowships provided?

    How is it that an exact number would be unavailable? It's not like a dean would ever say that they had a certain number of adjunct professors being paid by the school, but it would take months to figure that out. Every fellowship is a line item on a budget, yes? Or does Michigan just throw $4,000 at anybody who claims to have been a recent graduate?

    ReplyDelete
  91. In case anyone wonders why LawProf and others pushing T14 schools to report data here is a thread on top law schools. In it 0Ls (and people in school) are confidently telling others that taking out $100,000 grand for law school is affordable. They also claim that people on the site take out $250,000 in loans. Finally, there is an estimate the about 50% of people get biglaw out of T14.

    There are also threads where people calculate how they will pay back their loans with biglaw, but they haven't even walked in the door of a law school yet.

    http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=181996

    ReplyDelete
  92. @ 4:38- that tls thread is very...educational.

    what sort of world are we living in where 150k of debt for a 50/50 chance of getting a job to service that debt is considered a "good outcome?" jeez louise. i have to believe most of those kids have never cut a check to sallie mae before the way they talk about the affordability of that type of crippling debt.

    why do it? why go to law school? the social factors affecting people's decisions to go to law school must be quite powerful.

    ReplyDelete
  93. Personally, I am indifferent as to whether or not the Dean made a misleading statement. What if she did? It was only made to a room of 175 students, all of which were admitted. That is a small pool of lemmings to mislead.

    Besides, does anyone really need more proof at this point that law schools have been basically lying for years now?

    The real issue is the misleading stats that UM - - and every single other law school under the sun - - continue to post on their website.

    Fact: if LS's posted a true average salary - - lets call it $35k - - lemmings don't flock to LS as the last safe haven of the middle class the way that they do now, and Deans don't have a chance to make misleading / uninformed statements.

    ReplyDelete
  94. There is one truth, and a million shades of lies.

    If Campos misunderstood what the Dean said then I feel safe to bet that at least some 0L did too. Law schools teach you to use language precisely, they should the same.

    ReplyDelete
  95. @7:01
    precision isn't clarity. Teaching precise language is not the same thing as teaching clear communication. Misunderstanding is always a sticky issue because sometimes the misunderstanding comes from misinterpretion and not misrepresentation. Sometimes misunderstanding is the fault of the speaker, though, for not taking steps to correct or confirm the interpretation of the listener.

    Dean Z was reletively active about encouraging students to look at the data that was being posted and telling them to be on the lookout for it within the next 2 days. I honestly don't remember anyone saying that there were only 8 fellowships or anything close to that, but I wouldn't say LawProf is manipulating data for mentioning that several students told him that. He openly admitted the possibility of being wrong and asked for clarification, which apparently we're all getting. The people I spoke to about transparency did seem genuinely concerned with it. Whether they get it right or make mistakes is another matter. And maybe Dean Z is trying to score points by appearing cool, but it seemed from her and other people's behavior during the preview weekend that she is always that way.

    ReplyDelete
  96. @6:28 I am getting to the same point as you. I am really fed up with the students who take on debt assuming they will get biglaw. They know nothing about the system but won't listen to reason. If they were making calculations based on an income of $35,000 there is no way that people would make the same decisions.

    People make calculations on $160,000 and raises for the next five years. It makes me angry and sad at the same time.

    I think Lawprof is fed up too.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Looking at the data dump, the results do not look great for Michigan Law School.

    ReplyDelete
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