Albany
Brooklyn
Hofstra
California Western
Golden Gate
Southwestern
San Francisco
Chicago-Kent
DePaul
John Marshall
Florida Coastal
Widener
From the press release (not available on line at this moment):
Each lawsuit has been filed by multiple graduates as representative plaintiffs.The lawsuits allege that many schools falsely inflated graduate employment rates by, among other artifices, employing their own graduates in temporary jobs and counting graduates working in non-legal-related jobs and part-time and temporary jobs as “employed” even though such jobs either do not require a law degree or do not pay enough to service the massive debt taken on to finance the degree. The representative plaintiffs further allege that many schools reported“average” salaries based on a small sample of high earning graduates. As a result, the representative plaintiffs enrolled and remained enrolled at the school only to find themselves burdened with debt and with limited job prospects.
Could this be the time of year where lawsuits and bad publicity would deter the most applicants? I remember most deadlines being March 1 or 15th when I applied.
ReplyDelete@EricEsq'10 #1
ReplyDeleteEven better, this is yield season -- when the schools try to convert their accepted students into deposits and future paying bodies. Couldn't have picked a better filing time to nail the bottom line.
I surprisingly did not see the law school I attended on that list. And "surprise" is the right word to describe it.
ReplyDeleteI love that press release. It sums the situation up quite nicely.
ReplyDeleteAre these law firms capable and competent? It does no good if these cases are quickly dismissed.
ReplyDeleteI have a request to make, Prof Campos. Can you in the future write a post regarding how the law schools' ridiculously high tuition will affect the public's access to justice?
ReplyDeleteWe pride ourselves on being a democracy and I think part of that entails ensuring that access to our judicial system should not be based on one's pocketbook. In fact, most law schools preach that - it's often their favorite bragging right: "We're not responsible for the employment outcomes of our graduates and we really don't give a damn about them, not our problem, but hey, we have this great little clinic that ensures that low-income populations have access to free legal advice, so we're doing something right!"
However, what is the effect that high law school tuition is having on that goal of ensuring equal access to justice for the general public? Doesn't charging high tuition, which makes it extremely difficult for future practitioners to offer legal services without being cognizant of cost, counteract that stated goal? While law schools can give lip service to that goal, aren't they the very ones who, by charging such high tuition, which forces practitioners to charge high rates to recoup their investment (ie: pay off their student loans), responsible for an increase in legal fees, which results in affecting lower-incomed populations' access to justice?
Just curious, have any individuals in legal education thought about how ever increasing tuition affects practitioners' ability to offer low-cost legal services? I would love to hear a little more about this, since the impact of the law schools' greed affects so much more than their students and recent graduates: it affects the very goals that many law schools claim to have, as well as the foundation of our democracy: access to the judicial and political system, without that being dependent on one's earning potential.
Interesting to see and long overdue. This could be the first real step taken to fix a largly out of control problem.
ReplyDeleteWhy isn't Ohio State on this list? Hopefully they will be included in the next round. Ohio State is the worst.
ReplyDeleteCan anyone point to a source or link for this story. I don't doubt it, just want to read more.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.lawschooltransparency.com/2012/02/breaking-12-more-law-schools-facing-class-actions/
ReplyDeleteWhy is NYU not on that list? Why isn't BL1Y the name plaintiff in a class action lawsuit against NYU? For heaven's sake, he couldn't even get a job at Target with a JD from NYU.
ReplyDelete“We believe that some in the legal academy have done a disservice to the profession and the nation by saddling tens of thousands of young lawyers with massive debt for a degree worth far less than advertised” stated David Anziska, on behalf of Plaintiffs’ counsel."
ReplyDeleteLove it!
I am an unemployed grad of one of these schools. How can I get information on how to join in the lawsuits?
ReplyDeleteContact one of the plaintiff firms
ReplyDeleteThe firms driving this are not big - some solos, biggest is a DC firm with 15 or so lawyers, another has 9. Scrappy litigators by the looks of it, the sort that will cause heartburn to the law schools. Being small is not an issue - we are tiny, but take our clients from the biggest firms -
ReplyDeleteMacK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-FPimCmbX8
ReplyDeletei can't stop laughing in joy
ReplyDeleteHAHAHA AHHAAHA HA HAHA HA HA HAHA TIMES INFINITY
GO LAWSUITS!
"Why is NYU not on that list? Why isn't BL1Y the name plaintiff in a class action lawsuit against NYU? For heaven's sake, he couldn't even get a job at Target with a JD from NYU."
ReplyDeleteWhy are you making a backhanded "you're the exception not the rule" swipe at BL1Y? Doesn't he already drink enough?
http://abovethelaw.com/2012/02/twelve-more-law-schools-slapped-with-class-action-lawsuits-over-employment-data/
ReplyDeleteWhoomp! Shakalakashakalakashakalakashakalaka!
ReplyDeleteLawyers v. Law Schools.
ReplyDeleteTHE most righteous grudge match since the Israelites sought redress against the Pharaoh.
dybbuk
Is anyone planning on suing Third Tier Drake?
ReplyDeleteI'd love to see Oregon get the pants sued off of them.
ReplyDeleteLawProf,
ReplyDeleteOn the issue of transparency and loans, now is the time to write the new CFPB about both issues.
•Estimated debt at graduation
•Estimated monthly payment after graduation
•My likely ability to repay my loans
•A complete breakdown of cost at school by category
•Whether students at this school have been able to repay loans
http://www.consumerfinance.gov/your-feedback-on-know-before-you-owe-student-loans/
My school is on the list, which I think is okay, though I don't think the suit will even survive a motion for summary judgement. The first of the four named plaintiff's is a guy I actually knew in school (we're both 2010 grads, did a couple classes/parties/drinks together) we also did bar prep together as I recall he was in the top 1/3 of the class, and might have been on a journal; far from the bottom student that the school's will assume are the plaintiffs in these suits.
ReplyDeleteLet's get it on.
ReplyDeleteInteresting to see where this will all be going..
ReplyDelete@1:12,
I thought Oregon wouldn't have any problems considering they're only one of two schools in that state?
Hofstra has or at least had a plaque outside one of its classrooms with the name of the Siben and Siben law firm "Mill" on it.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if some people at Hofstra ever held their noses when they took Siben and Siben's donor money.
Really low class.
1:55 here\,
ReplyDeleteJust wanted to add that the other 2 named plaintiff's from my class were both in the top 10% and 25% of the class respectively, and they both now have jobs, so doesn't that destroy the typicality and damages requirements of a class action?
Good point, 1:55/2:54. I've skimmed a bunch of the complaint and the named plaintiffs include unemployed folks, underemployed folks and folks in bona fide legal positions. (The Hoftra complaint, for example, names only two associates and one of them is currently a full-time associate at a law firm). Some plaintiffs graduated a few years ago while others just graduated in 2011. Given that class members have to be similarly situated, I'm skeptical that these class actions will ever be certified, which doesn't bode well for these suits.
ReplyDeleteI wonder what Maurice A. Deane thinks about giving 20 million to Hofstra for naming rights now that it has been sued. I wonder what Washington & Lee thinks about hiring a new dean from Hofstra.
ReplyDeleteSimilarity comes from the inducement.
ReplyDelete3:03
ReplyDeleteNot a proper understanding of similarly situated. What similarly situated means is that the basic facts to be proven - generally the basis for liability - must be the same. In this context given that a set of defendants for a given school received:
1. Identical or nearly (and extra years data) misrepresentations;
2. Suffered a similar injury - i.e., paid the same or nearly the same tuition;
3. To secure the same degree - i.e., a JD
The difference in their employment result is a smaller matter that may go to damages - though if the argument is that they were overcharged it would seem that even the damages is uniform and not dependent on post law school earnings. Will all the defendants be put together - probably not - though you could see issues if there is evidence that there was coordination about what law schools should report through say the Law School Deans' conferences, law profs conferences, law placement conferences, etc. which might suggest a common enterprise.
MacK
Incidentally - common enterprise - I would be very concerned if I was an un-named law-school and officials of my school had exchanged e-mails or had other discussions with one of the named schools about what law schools should be disclosing. Given that this has been a hot topic for a few years now - pace various professors (like say Horowitz) posters on this site like to hate - it is not unlikely that there has been discussion between deans, placement departments, recruiters, etc. If such correspondence comes out in discovery that could get them sucked into the case as part of a common enterprise...
ReplyDeleteI can see the litigation holds circulating now...
MacK
Skimmed the complaints - so-so. I would have avoided the references to Enron, Madoff, etc. - they are really pointless hyperbole. In complaints dry and factual is better. I did not have time to look and see if they will survive a motion to dismiss - but some of the later complaints seem better written than the early ones (which are rife with weird formatting and font issues - always best avoided - looks unprofessional). They have done a pretty good job of tying the similarly situated facts together for the plaintiffs that I skimmed - and had some nice detail on the extraction of tuition by the main universities - though its relevance is debatable.
ReplyDeleteWait and see. If they get past a motion to dismiss the discovery could be very painful for the law schools.
@4:26
ReplyDeleteI agree that everything seems much better written now than the initial complains. It also seems that Plaintiffs' attorneys are getting more publicity smart. I remember when the original complaints came out and there was a lot of hyperbole and silly things said in the press.
It seems now they have streamlined their complaints, focused on what what was done wrong by the law schools, etc.
You go, guys!
@ 1:12:
ReplyDeleteDo you think U of Oregon is any worse than Lewis & Clark or Willamette, the other two law schools in the state? I mean, they are all ridiculous (high tuition, really bad job prospects*), but Lewis & Clark is the worst, because the students get suckered in by the beautiful campus and the wonderful city, and there just aren't any lawyer jobs in Portland (or the rest of the state).
*although no more ridiculous than the majority of law schools in this country
Bravo and good luck. I don't worry about whether or not this suit is dismissed, there was a time when Big Tobacco was invincible too. If former students keep aiming at this target, sooner or later they will connect. This is just the beginning.
ReplyDeleteI am an employed attorney and work with a friend who is an adjunct faculty member at a nearby law school. He looked up four students who graduated last year in our state's electronic bar directory. All four listed residential addresses - a sure sign they are not employed. By no means was this sample representative, but it's a measure of the devastating circumstances new graduates face. This is unconscionable. The schools have shown they are incapable of stopping themselves.
Go for it, you have only your chains to lose.
LOL @ the law schools getting sued. I hope they begin to crater and collapse ala Lehman brothers. Very curious to see how the ABA and dept of education spin this one.
ReplyDeleteThere is typicality of injury: they overpaid for education. the value they paid for the degree wasnt the value of what was purchased
ReplyDeleteI can't wait. Discovery, disgruntled ex-employees coming out of the wood work, bad publicity, congressional investigations.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it'll settle and all 0Ls will get a coupon for 25% off.
ReplyDelete"Free LL.M. with purchase of J.D."
ReplyDeletePeople want to reform these law schools but I just don’t see that happening considering the state of higher education generally. I just don’t know how you can talk about law school in isolation… as if its just its own little island with its own little problems. Since when does effective change or reform ever come in a top down fashion?
ReplyDeleteWhat about undergraduate education generally?
What about the economy that is the primary force that shapes these institutions?
The most you’ll get are some bs regs on reporting employment data that no one will follow anyway… you’ll just have a ruling- and that will be the best case scenario.
Get over yourselves… like a lot of other professions and careers (maybe teachers are an example) being a lawyer is no longer a “profession” its just a JOB now. End of story. Repeat after me J-O-B… just like all of the other jobs out there. All of your advocating and fighting isn’t going to “bring” the “profession” back.
5:21 it's very simple. law schools are the only educational institutions that lie about their ability to place graduates.
ReplyDeleteall you do nothing losers to spend all your time posting comments on blogs, instead of looking for a job or doing anything of any value to anything, let this lawyers efforts be in example to you. one lawyer is going to fix the entire scam - by doing something.
ReplyDelete5:57
ReplyDeleteThey don't "lie". They just don't report accurately.
Any way,
The most you’ll get are some bs regs on reporting employment data that no one will follow anyway… you’ll just have a ruling- and that will be the best case scenario.
5:21 AM
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that being a lawyer should not just be a JOB and anyone who sees it that way should not be a lawyer.
Despite what so many people who went to law school in recent years think - or think post Stephen Brill and the American Lawyer's "Law is just a business schtick" the law and the profession do and should stand for more - and it is a failure of legal education and the profession that we have failed to maintain that view. It is the fact that law school administrators see law as a simply a business and a JD as a commodity that has driven much of the current issues.
Lawyers have duties - to the court, to the public, to their clients, to other counsel - to behave honorably, to be fiduciaries, to be honest, to uphold the law, to protect the rights of people who are not in a position to protect themselves, to be guarantors of fair dealing. A lawyer who recognises that would not and could not have behaved as law schools have behaved for the last two decades or more towards their students. It is because of the violation of that duty that I despised many professors I had at Georgetown, but 20 years ago others earned my respect.
What many law school administrators and deans have done over the last 20 years would and should, if a lawyer did it to a client, have had that lawyer disbarred. Naked conflicts of interest have led law schools to mislead their students, conceal relevant information from them, induce them to enter into contracts - all while paying themselves the proceeds of the ill-advised deals the students went into. Replace the word student with client here and disbaral would be a near certainty. Present deceptive information in this way to a court and you would face bar discipline and sanctions. File disclosures like this with the SEC and you would be in deep deep doo-doo. What makes law schools special - why do they of all lawyers get a pass?
MacK
Hear hear, MacK!
ReplyDelete@ 5:21:
ReplyDeleteWhat is this "J-O-B" thing of which you speak? My prestigious and versatile JD has not enabled to get me one of these so-called "J-O-Bs," in which I presume one does "work" in exchange for "money."
Mack stfu you're just jealous because you couldn't transition to a professor gig. next time go to a good school and write more interesting papers.
ReplyDeleteMack, maybe deans should be disbarred. How do you find out which state your dean is licensed in?
ReplyDelete8:12 AM
ReplyDeleteWow - me a professor - I mean that would be so great - I'd take a hit in income of $200-300k. And of course with two books, major reports for international organisations, editor to a series of law-books and a whole bunch of articles people have actually read to my name (i.e., not in law school journals) - I mean I am so unqualified by 20+ years of experience as an international lawyer, General Counsel, admission in three countries as a lawyer and DC, NY, S.Ct., International Arbitrator, building with my partners our own law firm .... oh that's right the experience thing... can't be a law professor if you might actually know what you are doing...
8:12 AM - you might want to wonder why I am not interested in being a professor ... like you? Why I give a shit about what Law Schools are doing to the bar ... maybe because the law has served me well ... but I am appalled by what law schools have done to the profession. FYVM
MacK
MacK, you win the internet for today. Well said. It's good to see some older attorneys still care about the profession.
ReplyDelete8:12- if this is just a job, then society should take away our ability to self-regulate. I haven't considered it before, maybe there would be some public policy advantages. Thoughts from the commentariat?
Templar
No sarcasm, the "FYVM" was a really nice touch.
ReplyDelete8:53
ReplyDelete47 makes me an older lawyer, sob....
"Old lawyers never die, they just lose their appeal"
MacK
MacK -- Right on. K-JD and then into jobs (when there were jobs). Almost endless perp walk of lawyers for the last 15 to 20 years. Coincidence?
ReplyDeleteWhat doe FYVM mean?
FYVM - is not very polite
ReplyDeleteFYVM - Thank you very much.
ReplyDeleteMacK - but you also have to go after the current legal establishment as well, those who take advantage with non-paying jobs and depressed salaries, those who don't really teach lawyers how to be lawyers (the vast majority of us are on our own), most of whom are just fine with how the ABA and Law deans administer law school and set tuition. There is along line of miscreants in this mess but I agree that the law schools should be at take front of the line. Couldn't agree with you more.
ReplyDeleteThe people who think that “law” is still a profession, or is going to "return" to being one, or should be one are as delusional as the administrators representing the law schools that rip people off.
ReplyDeleteEvery J-O-B has responsibilities. Most managers who hire and supervise people have big responsibilities and affect people and their subordinates’ lives. Lots of J-O-Bs have responsibilities that entail impacting large/(or critical) sums of money.
Lawyers are workers who work J-O-Bs and like a lot of workers in this economy your labor is cheap, over supplied and the environment in which you have to work is intentionally competitive.
Congrats on getting the degree. Welcome to the “real world”… and if you don’t like it, help make it better for all of us starting from the bottom up.
9:56 - most J-O-B-S don't have barriers of entry that include enormous amounts of money, three years of extra schooling and an exam that takes months to to prepare for. Eliminate all that and then we can have a discussion.
ReplyDeleteWere comments from yesterday evening deleted/edited out?
ReplyDelete9:58
ReplyDelete"most J-O-B-S don't have barriers of entry that include enormous amounts of money, three years of extra schooling and an exam that takes months to to prepare for"
More and more jobs are requiring college degrees. Even if the job don't warrent one... (this is a large part of the problem, but I won't go into that)
Law school is just a fancy, expensive, sorting insitution. Few really learn anything practical to doing paid work... Just like people graduating with BAs and BSs
The first mistake people make is thinking that they are special, different, etc...
"More and more jobs are requiring college degrees. Even if the job don't warrent one..."
ReplyDeleteYep...and to be a lawyer you need that an EXTRA three years of school at skyrocketing prices.
"Law school is just a fancy, expensive, sorting insitution. Few really learn anything practical to doing paid work.."
Totally agree...but that isn't the point. The point is that its a barrier to entry that most other JOBS don't share.
"The first mistake people make is thinking that they are special, different, etc..."
??? Again, the point isn't that people perceive themselves as special but that the ABA forces all this extra shit on people to become a lawyer which makes it different from other JOBS.
9:41 -
ReplyDeleteAs far as we are concerned we have turned down offers to work/intern for free - we pay a decent pay-check on which our juniors and interns can live.
9:56 -
Maybe I'm delusional but I would not hire someone who though law was just a J-O-B and my partners and colleagues are not successful because we see it that way. If you don't like the practice of law, do not find the law intriguing and interesting - leave the profession and get a J-O-B. And I live in the real world, every day.
9:58 -
And the law schools are living off the fact that it should not be a J-O-B - that it is an important profession - but then the law professors are unwilling to accept that it is their role to craft and train and educate new members of that profession over their 3 years in law school, not just engage in ass-hat "legal scholarship" writing journal articles no one reads.
Law schools and law professors had prestige when they trained people to enter an honorable profession - but they wanted to be "legal scholars" in the "academy" doing "research" like chemists and physicists - and even calling their departments "legal science"
MacK
When was that golden age when law professors taught their students how to practice law?
ReplyDelete10:28
ReplyDelete"ABA forces all this extra shit on people to become a lawyer which makes it different from other JOBS"
Its NOT that different. Lots of jobs require people to go to college and then continue to get expensive training, take extra classes and get credentials. Credentialing is an industry for a reason- mainly because its profitable.
Moreover, the number of “on the ground lawyers and law students” who have a stake in this issue is small… What percentage of the overall pop. obtain or try to obtain a law degree? Probably in the low, low single digits. People forget that less than half of the pop. even get bachelor degrees.
The issue is larger than the “law profession”… few will look up and care about this “profession” and its institutions.
These forums are just echo chambers with a small number of stake holders talking to (yelling at) each other- and that makes it look like this issue (law school) is larger and more imminent than it is and that something will change.
"Its NOT that different. Lots of jobs require people to go to college and then continue to get expensive training, take extra classes and get credentials. Credentialing is an industry for a reason- mainly because its profitable. "
ReplyDeleteBullshit. Name me all the jobs that cost 3 years of extra schooling and 6 figure debt? Doctors? The vast majority do not. Stop comparing apples to oranges.
And I don't get the point of the rest of your babblings. These forums are here to address the specific problems of a career in law. You're the one trying to pull in the rest of the population. Nobody here is expecting anyone else to care.
^special snowflake *************
ReplyDelete^butthurt moron
ReplyDeleteLeiter now has a post on the issue and he is taking comments. One comments says
ReplyDelete"I looked at one of the early complaints against a California school. If the facts are as alleged, then the claimants have a strong claim for restitution of tuition they paid to the school. The restitution claim eliminates many of the individual issues that might prevent class certification. The most significant individual issues remaining go to the fact of reliance and perhaps whether reliance is "justifiable" The traditional law of misrepresentation is generous to plaintiffs on these issues.
Given the amount of tuition paid, even if class certification is denied there is sufficient money at stake to attract individual claims."
Posted by: Mark Gergen
If Mr. Gergen knows anything, the law schools should be worried.
prof, your blog posts are incredibly insightful. Just massive!
ReplyDeleteThanks!
unperson (Exposing the Law School Scam)
I am only surprised that Liberty University, with its law school, is not among those being sued. Of course, the administration of Bush 43 made sure that the average salary of Liberty law grads was higher.
ReplyDeleteIs this sort of like piranhas turning on one another? Posted by a non-lawyer.
ReplyDeletelaugh out loud at homeless lawyer posting from library. Great new commenter.
ReplyDeleteLawyers are as common as mud. It is no longer the prestigious career that it was half a century ago. There are 300 lawyers standing in line for one job. Instead, do a job that has real value in society. Become a doctor, engineer, healthcare professional, therapist for the elderly, or teach children with disabilities. Not interested? I didn't think so.
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