Tuesday, December 6, 2011

Some progress on transparency

The ABA Section of Legal Education and Admissions to the Bar has approved a new questionnaire which will require law schools to report more employment information than they're currently required to divulge.  Key points:


• Graduate employment information will be made available to the public faster. Instead of being published two years after a particular class graduates, the data will be collected earlier in the year and will be made public approximately one year after graduation.

• Law schools will have to report whether graduates are in jobs funded by the schools, themselves. They will have to stipulate whether graduates are in jobs requiring bar passage; positions for which J.D.s are an advantage; professional positions that do not require a J.D., non-professional positions; and whether jobs are long-term or short-term.

• Employment and salary information must be reported for each individual graduate rather than in the aggregate, giving the ABA the ability to audit the figures.
The Section's decision comes in the wake of the widespread criticism it received for an earlier decision to actually reduce the amount of data law schools would be required to divulge in regard to the Class of 2010.  However: "As with the old questionnaire, job and salary data will not be reported together and school-specific salary data will not be released publicly. . . School-specific salary data may yet be made available to the public under a different proposal being considered by the ABA's Standards Review Committee, which is evaluating all of the ABA's law school accreditation standards."

It's important to keep political pressure on the ABA in regard to this topic (calling the offices of Senators Boxer, Grassley, and Coburn to voice your support of their proposed hearings would be a good idea). 

It's also important to keep in mind that there's nothing stopping individual schools from releasing more information than the ABA requires them to report, and some schools are beginning to do so.  Consider this pdf, which can, in the wake of the litigation filed against it, be found on New York Law School's web page.

This represents an improvement over the reigning (extremely low) industry standard when it comes to disclosure of employment and salary data, although it's still falls quite a bit short of genuine transparency.


First, what’s good about this:

(1) It reveals that salary information is available for only 21.8% of the graduating class.  For instance a sophisticated reader would notice from this breakdown that around 5% of the class reports having a salary of 100K or above.   

    (2) It reveals that NYLS was funding 23 law school created “jobs” (although it would have been better if the school had revealed how long these positions lasted and what they paid – at most schools they last three to six months and are always timed, as at NYLS, to fall within the crucial nine-month post-graduation employment window).   
         
         (3) It reveals that most NYLS who are in private practice nine months after graduation are working for very small (10 lawyers or fewer) firms for salaries --less than $50K -- that hardly justify the $250K or so in tuition and living expenses that students must incur to get a degree from NYLS.

What’s not good:

(1) The stats make no distinction between temporary and long-term jobs.    Nationally, 27% of 2010 law graduates who had legal jobs nine months after graduation were in temporary as opposed to long-term positions. I suspect the comparable figure for NYLS is higher than the average.

(2) The stats don’t distinguish between full-time and part-time positions.

(3)  The stats don’t distinguish between JD-required and JD-preferred positions.  “JD preferred” is a slippery category that can include things that in fact have almost nothing to do with legal work.   

(4)  The breakdowns by category are still quite potentially misleading, in that NYLS reports an “average” salary for graduates in private practice of $107K, when that “average” is actually based on the salaries of 11% of the class, since only two out of five grads were in private practice, and most of these people were with small, low-paying firms – and very few people in this subcategory (16 out of 95) reported their salaries.

The most basic stats schools should be required to provide to the public are these:

(1) How many of your graduates are in permanent -- aka long-term, benefit-providing -- full-time positions that require a law degree? (As BL1Y mentions in comments this information would be much more useful if it were provided for graduates several years after graduation, not merely nine months afterwards).

(2)  What percentage of those people reported salaries, and what was the mean and median of those salaries?

NYLS has all this information, and provides some of it here, but does not disaggregate it adequately for prospective students.  Even so, as inadequate as this breakdown is, it’s still much better than what most law schools are currently disclosing to prospective students.  

So it's fair to say that, whatever it's fate may end up being in the courts, the litigation being brought against law schools for publishing misleading employment and salary data is already having some good effects.

60 comments:

  1. when do the rules take effect? Shouldn't we get 2010 stats any day now?

    ReplyDelete
  2. I'm really confused. Didn't the ABA approve a different question, just two months ago, saying that schools can no longer distinguish between full and part time jobs on the questionnaires? I think they also stopped distinguishing between legal and non-legal jobs. There was a post about it here and an article in the NLJ, written by the law school transparency folks.

    Is this that same new questionnaire, or another new questionnaire?

    ReplyDelete
  3. Oh never mind. The answer is in the first two paragraphs of the article you linked:

    The American Bar Association is changing the way it collects graduate employment information from law schools.

    The council of the Section of Legal Education and Admissions to the Bar on Dec. 3 approved a new annual questionnaire intended to gather more detailed information about where recent law grads find work. The change came as law students, graduates and three U.S. senators heaped criticism on the ABA and law schools for not providing prospective law students with an accurate picture of graduate employment and salary levels.

    --------------------

    Wow, an actual accomplishment for the movement.

    ReplyDelete
  4. "The breakdowns by category are still quite potentially misleading, in that NYLS reports an “average” salary for graduates in private practice of $107K, when that “average” is actually based on the salaries of 11% of the class."

    This is the smoking gun that you need to prove fraud. Counting doc review or Starbucks as "employed" isn't technically fraudulent because frankly doc review is a job. It's fraudulent in spirit, but again technically they're not misleading anyone.

    However, calculating a performance statistics based on a biased sample is absolutely, blatantly and brazenly fraudulent. It takes a basic understanding of statistics to see how nefarious it is, but trust me it's bad. Let me draw some analogies. Imagine an investment manager makes 10 investments, 5 do well and 5 do poorly such that overall he returns only 3%. However, he decides to describe his return by using a biased sample - the 5 investments that did well - and so he takes their average return and claims he earned 30%! No you can't do that!

    If you have salary for 11% of your class, and they are a ***random sample*** then you can use the sample's average as an estimate of the group's average. But when you know they are not a random sample, but rather a biased and cherry picked sample, then you can't represent their average salary as the group's average salary.

    Statistical sampling is used literally all over industry. That's where the whole "6 sigma" thing comes from for example (it relates to factories testing a percentage of - a sample of - the of items coming off the assembly line to judge the quality of the batch). Law schools are the only party I know of, anywhere, that attempts to get away with using biased samples.

    ReplyDelete
  5. The reason only 11% of NYLS's graduates report salaries is because of all the hulabaloo over hedge fund manager compensation being taxed as capital gains and not income. The same goes for NYLS alumni working in banking, management consulting or as high powered D.C. lobbyists. Don't blame NYLS for the fact that our country punishes success.

    ReplyDelete
  6. "Counting doc review or Starbucks as "employed" isn't technically fraudulent because frankly doc review is a job. It's fraudulent in spirit, but again technically they're not misleading anyone."

    I'm pretty sure this is incorrect (though maybe someone with a better understanding of fraud can weigh in).

    I don't think the statement has to be false for there to be fraud, it only needs to be intentionally misleading.

    ReplyDelete
  7. BL1Y, that's correct -- purely technical truth isn't a defense to consumer fraud charges.

    ReplyDelete
  8. I agree it's misleading to count Starbucks as employed, but my only point is that the biased sampling is "smoking gun" level of misleading. Any statistician worth his salt would report NYLS's data as 11% had an average salary of X, and we do not know what the other 89% earned. I guarantee that NYLS will not find a single statistician, anywhere, agreeing with their decision to present the average salary of that 11% as the average salary of the group.

    ReplyDelete
  9. "I guarantee that NYLS will not find a single statistician, anywhere, agreeing with their decision to present the average salary of that 11% as the average salary of the group."

    Come on now, you ought to know better than that.

    ReplyDelete
  10. If you find one let us know.

    ReplyDelete
  11. ^^Did not learn that in law school.

    As for people who talk about the movement not doing anything, or are surprised to learn that there have been some changes, I don't think they're paying too much attention.

    How many letters have gone out from Senators' offices? Sure, a letter isn't itself an end, but Senators don't go around demanding information that they just plan to file away and never look at again.

    More on point with the questionnaires, I don't know if you'd ever get enough responses for this to be feasible, but looking at grads 2-5 years out would provide much more useful information. If you're looking at the finances of your law degree, your start salary is fairly meaningless without an idea of how long you can stay in that job.

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  12. How many NYLS grads reported to be employed in "private practice" are actually working in the basement of Sullivan & Cromwell as temporary document review clerks? I'm sorry, but you can put lipstick and a bonnet on a pig, but it's still a pig. You can call these jobs "lawyer" jobs, but there is nothing lawyerly about them.

    ReplyDelete
  13. "How many NYLS grads reported to be employed in "private practice" are actually working in the basement of Sullivan & Cromwell as temporary document review clerks?"

    That's actually a very attractive option these days. Where can I get this job?!

    ReplyDelete
  14. Give NYC some credit for that last one. That was a good one.

    ReplyDelete
  15. @9:23: In 2008, about 25% of outside litigation expenses for major companies was document review.

    I don't know how much clients have to pay for doc review, but if we assume on average that 1 hour of document costs 1/4 of 1 hour of real legal work, this would give us 4 doc reviewers for every 3 attorneys.

    Take a more liberal estimate, where a doc reviewer costs the client $50/hr, while a lawyer on average costs $500/hr, we have 10 doc reviewers for every 3 attorneys.

    Doc review is likely restricted mostly to big client hiring big outside counsel, and not much of a factor for firms with <10 people (which is where most lawyers work), and this doesn't take into account that litigation isn't all that firms do, but it gives some idea about how many law school grads are in jobs that require a JD, but aren't practicing law.

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  16. Congratulations LawProf, LST, and others! This step is just one of many, but it's an important one. I also think this step may confirm the importance of pressing on related issues at the same time: The committee that made this change was the same one that received letters about the 510 amendment (debt load, defaults, and IBR). I suspect those letters--spurred in part by an anonymous commenter here--underscored the overall crisis to members of the committee.

    I want to say more building on what LawProf, 8:12, and BL1Y have said about statistics and fraud but I've got a doc's appointment. Just wanted to share my congrats on the main post. Yesss!

    ReplyDelete
  17. bl1y no good at math. check you ratios

    ReplyDelete
  18. So where can I get the document review job in Sullivan & Cromwell's basement again?!

    ReplyDelete
  19. 12:41, if you are serious, you need to first move to NYC or DC. Then you need to look up and visit the numerous legal staffing firms that exist there. Then you wait to be called and put on assignment somewhere, such as Sullivan and Cromwell's basement. After a few weeks, you get canned and you wait by the phone again.

    ReplyDelete
  20. It can't be that easy. There are tens of thousands of unemployed lawyers in NY and DC. Do they know about this?

    ReplyDelete
  21. There are plenty of law graduate jobs in NYC.

    They just posted one job today. The only catch is that you be able to speak Icelandic, and it will only last for four days.

    http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/lgl/2739418665.html

    ReplyDelete
  22. Most of those staffing agencies only use your information to make their bids for contract with a firm; they then resort to calling up their favorite go-to people when it comes to staffing. Trust me. I know all about Robert Half and Hire Counsel. They smile at you and introduce you to everyone in their office, making you think that the initial interview and all those many forms actually mean something. After a few weeks of calling every other day, you then realize that you were just going through the motions to fulfill their recruiter's quota requirements for a performance bonus.

    It is a waste of time.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Here's a hedge fund job, should you be interested in going that route:

    Compliance Internship (RI – 2004)
    Resolve, Inc (West Los Angeles)
    Posted: Dec 05, 2011
    Division N/A Geographic Preference Los Angeles County
    Position Type Part-time Compensation Type Hourly

    Description
    The Compliance Intern activities will generally include: •Completing forms to register investment advisors •Facilitating licensing examinations for investment advisors •Reviewing organizational and offering documents •Tracking and collecting periodic information to meet regulatory requirements •Assisting with special projects

    Firm Practice/Employer Description:
    Outsource back office provider and administrator for several hedge fund managers seeks a part time Compliance Intern to assist with investment advisor registration activities and other regulatory projects.

    Qualifications
    The ideal candidate will have 5+ years of professional experience performing compliance activities for alternative investment funds; however, industry experience is not required. The successful candidate must be a self-starter and a team player to succeed in this flexible, results-driven company. The successful candidate must also be detail-oriented, energetic and organized; care about quality of work, enjoy multi-tasking, function well on a team and enjoy entrepreneurial environments. Investment industry experience, strong computer skills, regulatory compliance and Bachelor’s degree with Juris Doctorate in progress is desirable. Skills •Experience in compliance for hedge fund, registered fund and/or other partnership structures •Strong understanding of Investment Advisor and Investment Company rules •General understanding of the investment process and investment industry •Working knowledge of organizational and fund offering documents •Strong communication skills •Experience preparing regulatory forms

    Compensation Details
    This internship offers the successful candidate experience in hedge fund advisor compliance. Compensation is $12 per hour.

    ReplyDelete
  24. It was that easy for me in 2007. Things may be different now. It's true that they use people they know first, something like a seniority system, so it might be hard to break in.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Here is a hedge fund job posted at my law school, if that's something you want to do.

    Description: The Compliance Intern activities will generally include: •Completing forms to register investment advisors •Facilitating licensing examinations for investment advisors •Reviewing organizational and offering documents •Tracking and collecting periodic information to meet regulatory requirements •Assisting with special projects

    Firm Practice/Employer Description: Outsource back office provider and administrator for several hedge fund managers seeks a part time Compliance Intern to assist with investment advisor registration activities and other regulatory projects.

    Qualifications: The ideal candidate will have 5+ years of professional experience performing compliance activities for alternative investment funds; however, industry experience is not required. The successful candidate must be a self-starter and a team player to succeed in this flexible, results-driven company. The successful candidate must also be detail-oriented, energetic and organized; care about quality of work, enjoy multi-tasking, function well on a team and enjoy entrepreneurial environments. Investment industry experience, strong computer skills, regulatory compliance and Bachelor’s degree with Juris Doctorate in progress is desirable. Skills •Experience in compliance for hedge fund, registered fund and/or other partnership structures •Strong understanding of Investment Advisor and Investment Company rules •General understanding of the investment process and investment industry •Working knowledge of organizational and fund offering documents •Strong communication skills •Experience preparing regulatory forms

    Compensation Details: This internship offers the successful candidate experience in hedge fund advisor compliance. Compensation is $12 per hour.

    ReplyDelete
  26. It is WAY different now. 15 of my friends all signed up with Robert Half over a year ago. They all had waived into DC after passing their respective state bars. We have all consistently reached out to many of the agencies over the past year. I have only received one call for a 2 week stint doing contract review work at $20/hr.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Doc Reviewer=Glorified Control+F

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  28. I believe you. As a veteran DC doc reviewer, I can tell you that Robert Half has never been very good. The best agencies with the most work are probably Hudson and Special Counsel. If there is any chance at all, it will be with one of those two.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Legal Counsel is another one that sucks majorly. It is really disheartening to walk into their waiting room and see all those recent grads quietly sitting in their chairs, awaiting one of those all-too-happy recruiters.

    Coming to DC and NYC as a doc reviewer is a waste of time unless you live with a group of at least 3 people and have connections. The sad part is that all of this time doing doc review is essentially done in vain because, unlike other professions, the accumulated experience is never going to lift you to a higher level. By contrast, doing doc review will pigeon-hole your resume and entire professional future.

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  30. Are we doing this wrong? Maybe the question we should ask is - how do we PROFIT from the law school scam?

    How about a $500 per pop one day seminar on how to start your own practice, or find a job? Cash up front obviously. Do you think we could pwn a few suckers?

    ReplyDelete
  31. The comments by BL1Y and others highlight why LST was right to propose as the gold standard a list from every law school of specific positions with specific employers. That's the best way for prospective students to understand what a school's graduates really do. Other data are necessary too, but this type of list is fundamental as a building block.

    Is there any way for graduates themselves to create that information for a particular class at a specific school? Graduation lists for particular schools are often online--sometimes in the shape of the graduation program, sometimes as lists accessible to the school's own grads. If a few grads from a particular school started with a list like that, then checked names on facebook and linkedin, I bet you could fill in a lot of specific positions and employers. Through friendship networks, you could then reach out to get info about people who aren't listed or where the info seems out of date. It's the four degrees of separation principle in action: A never even met D in law school, but A knows B and B thinks it's a good project; B also knows C who is still in touch with D; so the info eventually gets back to A.

    This is partly what I plan to do to gather information about my own school's 2010 grads. But couldn't a few of you do similar info gathering on your classmates? If you're interested in doing this and want method tips, feel free to email me. In fact, if a few of us were doing this for different schools/classes, we could share our tips and make progress faster.

    One tip off upfront: To be effective (and I'm talking here about graduates, not schools, gathering the info), I think you have to separate gathering info about position/employer from info about salary. People are much more likely to tell you what job they have--and to find out similar info from classmates--than to share salary info. But if we can get the specific job data on a few schools/classes, there are then ways to get at salary info--e.g., anonymous surveying on Survey Monkey or other internet sites. There's a lot of talk here (understandably and correctly) about salary but, as a researcher, I think you can get at that info most readily through a two-step process.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Doc review is "glorified control F" and literally thousands of graduates from ABA law schools are funneled into it every year. Once you do it, your resume becomes worthless and you will never get a legitimate job within the legal field, ever. These jobs may look "legal/JD preferred" on the career statistics, but they are anything but. These jobs are nothing more than a scam. Clients are being billed out for fake lawyers who do nothing more than skim through documents looking for key highlighted terms. It's basically admin work. The "fake lawyers" don't see any of this money however, as the biglaw & staffing agencies keep most of it and the fake lawyers are stuck paying for their own health insurance on top of their astronomical student loans.

    We focus often on the JD's who aren't getting jobs, but it's also important to remember that many of the graduates who are lucky enough to be employed are actually underemployed.

    ReplyDelete
  33. I'll do Control F for $35/hour. Where do I sign up?!

    ReplyDelete
  34. Move to DC or NYC and contact the staffing agencies. I don't think you would like it though. They require you to work more than 10 hours a week, unlike your cushy tenured position.

    ReplyDelete
  35. @3:04: You're right that the work is not legal, and doing it doesn't make you a lawyer, even if a JD is required.

    But, doc reviewers do actually keep a pretty sizable amount of what they're billed out for (I've heard it's in the 35-40% range). Big Law associates get less than 30% of their billables as compensation, and the amount is decreasing. Doc Review is shitty work for shitty pay, but the actual slice of the pie isn't the problem. The problem is the pie is small, and made of spoiled meat.

    ReplyDelete
  36. For those looking for document work, there are companies in other cities as well. E.g., there's Black Letter Discovery, with offices in San Francisco, Columbus, and Cleveland. I don't know anything about their job conditions, but have heard they are growing. There must be companies in other cities too?

    ReplyDelete
  37. "but the actual slice of the pie isn't the problem."

    Oh yes it fucking is. Another thing the ABA is looking the other way from...these staffing agencies/middlemen profiting off the backs of debt slaves not to mention the actual working conditions and billing practices. Managed one of these for my large firm for a short time and it was one of the worst experiences of my life and ten times worse for the actual temp/contract attorneys. You get more respect and better working conditions being a barista in Starbucks...believe me. And its steadier work.

    People should be reporting all the shit that goes down at these places and go after the middlemen and not saying dopey crap like, "I'll do Control F for $35/hour. Where do I sign up?!" I understand the desperation and you are the victims here but that kind of attitude is contributing to the problem and one of the many reasons you get so taken advantage of.

    If anything, with the advent of IBR, you should be searching out ANY type of non-profit work and get this crap out of your life in a decade. Doing doc work relegates you to a permanent life of misery anyway because you are now viewed as untouchable and treated as such. If you're crazy, have no ego or self-esteem and don't mind living a life of misery then go for it.

    ReplyDelete
  38. The size of the pie is a problem.

    On one review I was on, the firm was billing the client $150 per hour, the agency got $55 an hour, and the contract attorney was ultimately paid $25 an hour. After the law school gets their cut (via the monthly Sallie Mae loan payment), the contract attorney wasn't making much more than minimum wage. Remember, your average American earns $28.50 an hour if you include benefits, as stated by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Contract attorneys receive nothing in the way of benefits.

    ReplyDelete
  39. @4:06: In that situation, the agency isn't the problem, as @3:04 suggests. The agency is giving you 45%. It's hard to find any company that will do that.

    The firm passing on a bigger bill to the client makes the pay look much worse, but that's really a failure of the agency to negotiate a better rate, or for the client to do the same.

    You could look at associate pay the same way. You take home 27% of what the firm makes, but probably less than 1% of what the corporate client earned from your work.

    Clients are becoming much more cost conscious though, and I wouldn't be surprised to see more in house directly hiring doc review firms, and then handing the docs over to outside counsel. Should give the doc reviewers a little more money.

    ReplyDelete
  40. @1:49, 1:50

    Incredible! Just incredible-$12/hr.

    ReplyDelete
  41. BL1Y wrote: "I wouldn't be surprised to see more in house directly hiring doc review firms, and then handing the docs over to outside counsel. Should give the doc reviewers a little more money."
    --------------------

    You are dreaming. Even if that happens with in house directly hiring doc review firms, don't expect any extra to trickle down to doc reviewers. The money per hour that doc reviews get is a function of the plentiful supply of willing debt slaves available.

    If they won't work for the rate offered, there are plenty of doc review shops opening in India that will do it cheaper.

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  42. http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20111206/NEWS/111209813

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  43. BL1Y - what part of no future, job security or benefits do you not understand?

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  44. 5:34, There goes the whole "work for a hedge fund to make bucks" nonsense eh? Sorry about the double post I was trying to get it past the size filter.

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  45. 2:33 - and then we could start a whole new blog: Inside the Law School Scammers Scam.

    ReplyDelete
  46. @7:24: I agree it's a shitty job, especially considering the amount you have to pay for entry into it, but the problem isn't doc review companies taking too big of a cut.

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  47. BL1Y - any part of the cut is a problem. Have you worked one of these jobs? Pretty nice to talk about it from your armchair. Again, middlemen getting any cut for almost no work off of debt slaves is not what I would call advantageous to anyone but the middlemen. There are all sorts of economic implications that I have no desire to go into.

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  48. I applaud this measure. It will soon be obvious that law school really is a good investment, especially once the job market turns around. Maybe that will cut down on the whinging.

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  49. To me transparency is simple and not all that complicated. You simply need two sets of bar graphs, one for positions, one for salary. The bar graph would divide by reasonable categories between permanent/temp, JD-required, etc etc.

    And then you simply need to account for EVERY SINGLE GRADUATE. If information for a graduate is not known, it gets put in the unknown graph, however large that graph is.

    Its not that complicated!

    ReplyDelete
  50. Please help!
    Thanks for all the feedback.I WAS that gulliable. I made a bad choice and I am just trying to figure out what my best option is at this point. Anyways, the lady that I spoke to at the time was the one who told me that if I couldn't pay, it wouldn't really hurt me if it went the Chx system. She said it would buy me sometime until I did have the money. I do not go to Thomas M. Cooley School of Law...i dont know if u meant that to be a joke or something- I made a bad decision and dont worry, I am paying for it. Please dont judge peoples actions if you don't know the surrounding cricumstances. Thank you for your feedback.|just buy everything they need and put it in storage while the rest of us who live paycheck to paycheck have to start paying the tax imediately?I'm a Senior at my undergrad and seriously contemplating law school. I've already gotten my letters or recommendation together and I have a decent GPA.I'm taking the LSAT in June.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Now i'm truly baffled. Did not the actual ABA say yes to another query, simply 8 weeks in the past, stating that universities can't separate total and also in your free time careers around the surveys? I do believe additionally they ceased differentiating among authorized as well as no-lawful work. There was clearly any submit about this the following and also a write-up inside the NLJ, published by regulations college openness people.

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