Thursday, September 15, 2011

The Law School Transparency Petition

If you work at a law school, attended one, or currently attend one, please consider signing this letter:

"We, the undersigned,  believe it is imperative that all law schools provide prospective law school students with information  that will allow them to accurately assess their prospects for finding appropriate employment within the legal profession upon graduation from the schools they are considering attending. We therefore call upon the American Bar Association to require all schools it has accredited to release clear, accurate, and reasonably comprehensive information regarding graduate employment, by for example implementing the proposals outlined in Part III of the Law School Transparency Project's white paper "A Way Forward: Transparency at U.S. Law Schools" (http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1528862.), so that prospective students may obtain adequate information regarding their likely future employment prospects."


Name
Institutional affiliation or employer, if applicable
Law school attended and year of graduation, if applicable


*Institutional and employer affiliations are for identification purposes only


If you would like to sign the letter, send an email to:  lawschoolpetition@gmail.com

Notes:

(1) This letter will not be published, nor will the identities of any signers be disclosed, until at least 100 current law faculty at ABA-accredited schools have signed it.  This number represents little more than one percent of the tenured faculty at such schools. I will give occasional updates on how many signatures have been collected from law faculty, employed lawyers, law graduates, and current law students.

(2)  People have made several excellent suggestions about what else such a letter might contain, such as demands that tuition be frozen or reduced, and that law schools collect and publish meaningful information about their graduates' levels of satisfaction with their law school experience.  Although there are advantages to addressing these issues in a single petition, I believe that the initial effort should focus on the issue around which there is clearly the most consensus.  Thanks to everyone for their input.

141 comments:

  1. Forgive me for being daft.

    Regarding the mechanics of "signing" this petition: do I send you an email with the information discussed above or send you an email, you send me a letter, I sign it scan it and send it back?


    (I would like to sign with a John Hancock-esq assertive signature)

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  2. To sign the petition you just need to send an email to lawschoolpetition@gmail.com

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  3. Thank you for doing this. Hopefully it will bear fruit soon.

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  4. Dear commentators:

    Forgive me for being a bit off topic. Last night I suggested that the American Association for Justice might be an organization that would be a sympathetic ally in the fight against law school fraudulent practices and their determination to make sure there is one lawyer for every 50 people. However, that does not solve the problem that these awful debts cannot be discharged in bankruptcy, a fact that I truly believe is a threat to the well-being of this country. I wonder whether the organization representing consumer bankruptcy attorneys would be interested in such a fight? I do not practice bankruptcy law so I don't know much about the organization. Anyway, here is a link to its website: http://www.nacba.org/

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  5. You mean the AAJ will forgive the scamblogs for popularizing "shitlaw" ? I wouldn't.

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  6. How are you disseminating this? Do you think every law professor reads your blog? If not many people sign up, it will be an occasion to say that the legal academy is against transparency. And some people don't sign petitions, ever. I think it's possible to overestimate the readership of any given blog. Only really well known ones get into mainstream circulation.

    Having trouble posting... apologies if this posts multiple times.

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  7. @7.54 - Just a guess, but my suspicion is that, being a law professor, Paul Campos knows other law professors, and that since his readers are overwhelmingly law students, graduates, and professionals, that they may also know law professors to whom they can send this petition. Yes, getting one percent of the people in a certain profession to sign a petition is an ambitious target, but nothing is acheived without ambition.

    As it is, I am sending this to every US law student and graduate I know.

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  8. You need a facebook account.

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  9. Dear Mr. Fowler:

    I am sorry for being thick, but I'm not sure I completely understand your comment. So pardon if I'm failing to meet your point.

    Yes, the use of the term "shitlaw" is an unfortunate term that is born of young lawyer's frustration of having debt payments the size of my mortgage payment that prevents them from opening their own practice; and I believe, quite frankly, it is also the product of law school deans, professors, placement officials perpetuating a myth that personal injury lawyers and other small practitioners are "losers" and somehow less "legitimate" than a drone at Biglaw (at least until they hear that one of us received a big contingency fee and then the dean calls for a donation). I believe that if the people that lead and comprise the membership of AAJ have the wits and compassion to battle cut-throat insurance companies for ordinary people, they have the wits and compassion to identify the product of justified frustration and anger. In any event, we won't know unless we try.

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  10. His 'Note 1" suggested to me that he was particularly interested in having law professors sign.

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  11. Maybe Law School students & Graduates can put the info on their "Social Media" pages in that way it will get great exposure & faster results...

    Good luck with this...

    Trini...

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  12. Why are you censoring comments that you disagree with lawprof?

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  13. "Maybe Law School students & Graduates can put the info on their "Social Media" pages in that way it will get great exposure & faster results..."

    No one is going to sign this. I believe in it and I'm not going to sign it because it's pathetic. This is the most pathetic protest I have ever seen in my entire life. You literally could not protest in a more ineffective and helpless way. If you can list a more useless form of protest I would love to hear it.

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  14. Here are protests that matter:
    http://www.google.com/search?q=protest&tbm=nws

    Here is where this protest will end up:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest

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  15. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slacktivism

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  16. To Mr. Anonymous Guy on Steroids:

    I haven't moderated comments to this point but your schtick about how union thugs run the world while law students are "bitches" has gotten tiresome and is cluttering up this blog.

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  17. LawProf, Wise minds think alike... but
    fools seldom differ...

    Trini.

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  18. At lawprof,

    Here here.

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  19. That's not at all what I said.

    I said this is a time wasting and ineffective form of protest that will accomplish nothing but show the world that the victims of the law school scam are themselves cowardly meek, pathetic and apathetic people who, had they not been victimized by law school, they would have been victimized elsewhere. You know what people think when they see this? Nerrrrrds. This will humiliate and set back the movement.

    There are ways to protest that will matter, and there are ways to protest that will not. The former requires the protester to suppress their fear and show courage, the latter does not. An internet petition, an anonymous one of all things! is the latter.

    I've made my prediction. You will accomplish absolutely nothing with this, and will probably barely get any signatures. You'll see that I'm right.

    People, get a damn backbone. Union dishwashers matter more than you.

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  20. @8:47 a.m.:

    Are we going to hear about your bench press again? Surely there's a MySpace full of people who would be impressed.

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  21. Critical mass is approaching. No longer will this issue be swept under the rug as it has in the past because the economy itself is going to make sure that the underground, lukewarm reception to the law school scam in the past finally reaches its pitovtal boiling point.

    When the political winds, rightly or wrongly, swing rightward in the next year, the gutting of higher education funding and fraud will be at its apex. Though I'm no tea party fanantic, the blowback and consequences of their rhetoric may have the satisfying effect of destroying and eradicating the government funding these charlatans presently enjoy.

    One way or another...via petition....or the outside political will of extraneous groups...karmic justice will be dealt upon these law schools.

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  22. "One way or another...via petition....or the outside political will of extraneous groups...karmic justice will be dealt upon these law schools."

    You know what a ***** does? Pray for karma?

    You know what a man does? Make karma happen.

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  23. I won't talk about this point any longer, so as not to clog the thread, but here is my challenge: You name me a more ineffective form of protest than this petition and I'll give you a reward. The reward will be that I'll stop posting here. I literally can't think of a more ineffective form of protest. Not one.

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  24. "I won't talk about this point any longer, so as not to clog the thread, but here is my challenge: You name me a more ineffective form of protest than this petition and I'll give you a reward. The reward will be that I'll stop posting here. I literally can't think of a more ineffective form of protest. Not one."

    Here's one: Posting anonymous comments on a blog repeatedly protesting the ineffectiveness of petitions as a means of protest.

    Now get out of here.

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  25. My comments aren't less effective than this petition. My comments got under your craw so badly that you deleted them. You could post your petition in the comments section of 1,000 pro law school blogs and it wouldn't get deleted, because no one cares. It's pure slacktivism/clicktivism, as stated in the wikipedia article above.

    Whatever, I guess you people are trying. I just wish you were innately stronger people who could do things that mattered, like a day of IN REAL LIFE protest. How about organizing that? How about organizing a sit in, on Oct. 20, to protest these things. Never mind. I won't clog this thread any longer, but you people all need to get a backbone for your own sakes. You weren't given free will and a body to make internet petitions.

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  26. LawProf, I believe that Mr. Anonymous Guy on Steroids, is running scared because he/she is afraid that someone is taking away their thunder...

    With the problem getting intellectual attention instead of the usual undisciplined ranting & raving that most people were getting tired with, (many time downright vulgar)he/she will have to try and fit in with a more sophisticated
    discussion & I do not believe they can do that.. They are scared that the movement will be over as things are corrected.
    So now they will have to go out & look for a real job & maybe use their writing skills...

    Trini..

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  27. The ad hominen attacks some of you throw back and forth against each other are silly, foolish and counterprodutive. I can imagine few things that give more comfort to those trolls looking for red meat that come to this blog than watching some of you people call each other names. Annonymous, if you want a protest, thats fine---it is a worthy goal, so go organize it---I'm behind it---I'll buy a plane ticket and attend. Do I think Prof. Campos' petition will change the system? Probably not, and he probably doesn't think it will either. But it is a concrete step and it isn't going to hurt you in the least. The rest of you piling on Annonymous, stop. He's on your side---it doesn't matter how inartfully he puts forward his opinion---he's still on your side. Please quit fighting amongst yourselves and remember who the real enemy is. A little civility goes a long way.

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  28. Unfortunately, comment moderation is the only way to deal with trolls. Otherwise, somebody will always feed them (even me right now).

    I think the flaw in the petition is the reference to the law school transparency group. No offense to them, but people can use this as an excuse not to sign, that they aren't familiar with the referenced material. I doubt professors want to let Campos succeed even with this, so they'll jump at any excuse they can.

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  29. This is bullshit. You can "speak truth to power" all you want, but Power will just laugh in your face unless you can back your words up with physical force.

    I'm no great admirer of Mao, but he was mostly correct when he said "Political power grows from the barrel of a gun." Mao had nothing but contempt for effete "scholars" who presumed that their status as "scholars" would be more powerful than material weapons.

    On that note, to this day China still maintains the ancient Chinese tradition of allowing peasants to petition the Central Government for redress of grievances. And although most peasants' petitions never reach ZhongNanHai (China's equivalent of America's Capitol Hill), nonetheless SOME petitions DO reach China's central government...

    ...and then the central government changes nothing.

    "The right to petition" is nothing but a fig-leaf for the legitimation of status quo power. And on that note, come to think of it, I DO ADMIRE Chairman Mao, at least insofar as he had no illusions about how power operates! AND, another reason why I admire Mao Ze Dong, is because he had WELL-INFORMED CONTEMPT for the kinds of effete "scholars" whose cowardice led China into enslavement!

    I have personally visited the cottage in which Mao was born. At that time, I had many reservations aboutMao. But the more I read this blog, the more I admire Mao Ze Dong! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31XanjfCNms

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  30. To hell with the trolls! I'm glad they come around and expose themselves. We can more easily figure out what they are thinking---know thy enemy. Besides, they are humourous in their own way. (Darn---now you guys have me making ad hominans!)

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  31. Signed and posted by me at JDU.

    -BigSal

    http://www.qfora.com/jdu/thread.php?threadId=20438

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  32. Jerome: The letter is phrased so that the LST proposal is merely a possible option for achieving transparency ("for example").

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  33. Further re petitions, I imagine Jesus Apostles petitioning Governor Pontius Pilate in circa 34 AD:

    "Dear Governor Pilate: As you know (but Pilate would have forgotten by then, because to him Jesus was just another Judaic equivalent of a N-gger), last year you sentenced our Rabbi Jesus to crucifixion, on the basis of your legal authority to condemn any perceived threat to the absolute power of Caesar. We, the undersigned, hereby ask you politely to give a flying f--- about us, and to take time out of your busy schedule of bribery and covering up your embezzlements, so that you will order a total cessation of arrests of Christians. We trust you will listen to us and protect us, because we have faith in the goodness of Caesar."

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  34. To put my above comments in other words and other symbols, to "petition" the American Law School regime to give a flying f--- about the perceivedly weak and powerless, would be equally as effective as a physically weak prisoner politely asking not to be raped anymore, cf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35zNXX7_f7o

    Oh, am I equating American Law "Professors" with prisoners who routinely rape other prisoners? Well, actually yes I AM! And in some cases, the rapes of law school victims become literal, as in the cases of bankrupt male law school grads who are sent to prison due to inability to pay child support. By the way, the majority of American victims of rape are male, mostly prisoners, some of whom have JD degrees and were imprisoned because of insolvency.

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  35. The rest of you piling on Annonymous, stop. He's on your side---it doesn't matter how inartfully he puts forward his opinion---he's still on your side.

    I don't think he is. After following this blog for over a week, I strongly suspect that he and One Who Survived are both people whose ox is at risk of being gored by Prof. Campos's efforts (i.e., law school administrators or faculty). They've therefore made it a mission to ridicule this blog, its supporters, and especially the petition.

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  36. People should send the link of the petition to various law blogs as a way to get the word out.

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  37. To the "gentleman" above who keeps taking issue with internet protests and petitions, what can you seriously say about the use of online social media such as Twitter/Facebook in causing an organized groundswell of the very actions you are calling for? After all, in countries all throught the Middle East, that very concept was readily apparent all throughout last year. Every movement has its stages, and, just as those movements had their infancy in the form of IDEAS and social networking, so, too, can the very same form of protest original here in a like form. Yet you seemingly discount anything and everything that can take place online as ineffective rather than recognizing it has a potential first volley. Funadmentally, you fail to grasp the concept of momentum and its connection to the online resources at our disposal.

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  38. 10:42
    I strongly suspect that he and One Who Survived are both people whose ox is at risk of being gored.

    Well, if you are right---and you may very well be--it seems to me better to just ignore them and chuckle to yourself that it's a kicked dog that barks---we're gettin' to 'em.

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  39. "what can you seriously say about the use of online social media such as Twitter/Facebook in causing an organized groundswell of the very actions you are calling for?"

    Are you serious? Those protests occured IN REAL LIFE, not on the internet. Internet protests are ineffective slacktivism and the law school scam crowd doesn't have the courage to do a real protest.

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  40. The gall of a person to compare his surfing a page and clicking two mouse buttons with people risking their lives to physically confront a military in Egypt. That perfectly embodies the lazy apathetic delusions of clicktivists.

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  41. Now, back to the issue of the petition. I just signed. Thank you again, Professor Campos. I have forwarded this blog entry to all of my law school friends. I look forward to the day years from now, that in the midst of the Great Recession, all of this will have played a part in the inevitable collapse and restructuring of legal education.

    The people in the ivory towers, who comfortably dabble away on their law school-funded Ipads in their administrative offices, deserve the failure that is coming. I hope they have saved well because I personally will rejoice in seeing their economic situations languish and implode as the inevitable cuts in federal funding and their overpriced tuition comes back to fiscally rape them of their job security.

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  42. The problem with this guy isn't that there isn't some truth to what he says (the ones screwed by this system don't do much) but that he...is...so...fucking...stupid (and immature). He thinks he's some intellectual with powerful insight but he's just one of those pathetic Asian law students who has trouble with women and failing to live up to his parents high standards and tries to make up for it by bench pressing his own bullshit and hating on everyone as if he is above it all. Its called an inferiority complex and narcissism. And a touch of retardation because, dude, you are just so fucking dumb. (how do you like the stereotyping btw? Fun, huh?)

    If you actually worked among real lawyers you would find out how vicious and backbiting and aggressive most are and how many would move mountains for the smallest bit of status. You just sound like a pissed off teen who discovered Mao and google search recently. Somebody yesterday said you sound the columbine teens - what you actually sound like is that Asian student who shot up Va. Tech.

    But anyway, we gave this dope what he wanted - attention and an analysis of his barely formed ideas. Just ignore him and let him pound away at the keys.

    We would have actually listened to what you had to say if it wasn't all so badly thought out.

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  43. The stupidity of the person to not realize that social networking and the INTERNET didn't play any role in the organizing of the protests in Egypt and elsewhere, including London. The use of Twitter and Facebook was WIDELY discussed as playing a part in those protests.

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  44. Too little, and too late, you bunch of self-serving academic hypocrites.

    It has no teeth.

    What about the lives that are already destroyed?

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  45. @ 11:15am Better late than never. So your argument is basically that we should do nothing because, after all, the law school scam is a freaking tradition at this point? You roll over quite easily, huh?

    You know what? Stupidity like yours shouldn't even be humored. At this point, it is willful ignorance.

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  46. Send this link to law blogs (Above the Law, Wall Street Journal Law blog, law.com, etc.)

    http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2011/09/law-school-petition.html

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  47. Too little, and too late, you bunch of self-serving academic hypocrites.
    It has no teeth.
    What about the lives that are already destroyed?

    Young man (and I do have a feeling you are a young man), I shall give you more attention for a moment. There is nothing really to be done about your life if you are convinced it is already destroyed---nothing that we on this blog can do in any event in the immediate future. We need to work on getting the bankruptcy exemption repealed but that will take time. You want us to take to the streets---burn down some Walmarts, but at the end of the day, you will be right back where you are now--no bankruptcy discharge. If anything, you will be further from your goal---constituents are not going to cotton to their elected representatives buckling under the threats of graduate school educated kids rioting in the streets. Perception is reality and the perception will be that a bunch of spoiled kids are mad because they have to pay their school debt back. I know that is not the reality, but that is how the sound bites will play. Remember what that great piller of western philosophy John Lennon said:

    "But if you go 'rouund carrying pictures of Chairman Mao,
    Ain't nobody gonna listen to you anyhow."

    Instead, we need to demonstrate to the owners of most of Congress--the malefactors of great wealth--that you young people cannot grow into middle aged people that can buy their stuff because you have a 150K millstone around your neck and no decent paying job allowing you to buy "stuff" and service your loan at the same time. Unfortunately, that will take very hard work and some time. I'm truly sorry.

    At least that's my view.

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  48. Look, we have a very disagreement here about something that we will have an answer on soon.

    I say you are pathetic, cowardly, meek, apathetic, losers who wouldn't have the courage to look a real law school administrator in the eye in THE REAL WORLD, never mind actually do a protest that matters.

    You say this petition will get you somewhere.

    We'll find out in no later than two months. If I turn out to be right, when I turn out to be right, I expect acknowledgement of that fact.

    It's as simple as that. Let's see who is right, me or you.

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  49. *very simple disagreement

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  50. I sure hope you plan on doing a post of the AALS meat market (it's coming up soon).

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  51. So basically I was right....you're an alienated disaffected asian law student...?

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  52. No not at all. Completely wrong on all grounds, but that won't be the first time you're wrong, nor the last (see my post at 11:39) you coward.

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  53. The guy posting here about how newly minted lawyers are wimps is true. People with no education in his country have secured six figure salaries, and pensions that rival the pay of Big Law associates, and with better job security too. They did this by DEMANDING IT.

    We beg for a liveable wage, and we have some asshole, like a few of the people posting here, say "you didn't have high grades, and/or didn't make LR, and/or didn't go to the right school, and/or don't have work experience, etc." and we take it. We take that and a status as debtors that no other debtor in the country has, i.e. non-dischargeability, and we take the ABA not only not protecting us, but affirmatively hurting us by approving document review outsourcing. We are weak.

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  54. They say a picture is worth a 1,000 words, and that a video is worth 1,000 picures, so let me give a video of what I mean when I say 10 hotel dishwashers matter more than you people, when I say 10 hotel dishwashers exercise their free will less fear than you people.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBZCewlf2sQ&NR=1

    Imagine you're a hotel manager and every customer who has to walk into your hotel has to face that. These protesters sream "shame" and other insults at your patrons. They also have loud drums and make noise. That's called being a person who matters.

    Any way, I really don't want to side track the discussion, but I will be proven right in two months when this petition goes absolutely nowhere. I'll be back then, to say I told you so.

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  55. @11:39:

    I looked a law school administrator in the eye at my law school and told him exactly what the scambloggers have been saying. He did not want to hear it and in turn, blamed the economy for the legal job market. When I informed him that law schools (such as mine) are pumping out 44K JDs for 26K legal jobs, he just shook his head. So, get a life scumbag.

    Lawprof: your petition is great. Do you have a problem with unemployed lawyers signing it? Just curious.

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  56. 44k into 26k? Try 50k into 15k.

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  57. 11:53: Anybody who went to law school (and law faculty who didn't) is encouraged to sign.

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  58. I believe that there are other blameworthy groups as well. Take my own: small law practitioners with 20 + years of experience. 70% of all practicing lawyers are small firm lawyers, which means we get hurt tremendously by this over-supply. Yet where were we ten or 15 years ago when this problems began to reach critical mass? Probably too busy trying to make a living, but that is a rather weak excuse.

    I do remember a friend of mine relating a story to me about ten years ago. He was then and still is a very successful personal injury lawyer and yet he would never give a donation to his law school. He received a call from the dean of his law school who ask him, "what can we do to persuade you to donate to your alma mater?". My friend replied: "I will give you $50,000.00 today if you will shut down your school at the end of this term." As I understand things, the dean quickly terminated the conversation.

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  59. Hey Asian law student on roids, memorize this phrase; correlation does not mean causation. This is especially true when attached to oversimplified black and white thinking. So what are you doing, tough guy, except typing 30 comments a day on a blog? Clown.

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  60. Just wanted to drop a note here. Law School Transparency has signed the letter. We will write about it tonight or tomorrow.

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  61. A good luck at how student loans have exploded:

    http://wp.me/p18jX5-74T

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  62. Paul Horwitz has posted about the petition at PrawfsBlawg and encouraged his colleagues "to think about signing it."

    http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2011/09/law-school-transparency-petition.html#more

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  63. re prof horwitz - read his entire post. Just another typical academic dope. Won;t even waste my breath taking apart his laughable attempt to take apart the posts and comments here. He's so irrelevant its laughable.

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  64. Let me tell you about why civility matters.

    I'm involved with meaningful, in-real-life activism but I have no dog in this fight - never been to law school, and I know few people who have. I'm reading this blog because it is interesting. It sways my opinions on matters of higher-education funding, bankruptcy law, and so on. I am becoming sympathetic to you unfortunate grads.

    Every time I read comments about 'pussies', 'bitches', 'effete scholars',

    This is because like 50% of the people you have to convince over this, I have a vagina and I don't need your sick self-loathing masculinity hooplah in my life. (If you're worried you seem pathetic to others, that would be why; your education has nothing to do with it, it's the constant defensive woman-hating language that's the big tipoff that you're a massive loser). So if you guys are after non-slacktivist support in this matter, congrats, you just lost mine.

    Got one for you, Mao fanboy; 'Women hold up half the sky.' Civility matters, right?

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  65. *a line of my comment got deleted there, probably by a bad tag:


    Every time I read comments about 'pussies', 'bitches', 'effete scholars', I reconsider over whether law students are worth my time.

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  66. The word "pussy" is unisex.

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  67. Oh get over yourself female non-law grad. Language is complicated and there are assholes everywhere....if you take that tack with everything in life you won;t be supporting many causes. And anyway, its one lonely moron pulling most of the idiocy.

    But you would make a perfect law student....politicizing the wrong points (and being so boring and cliche about them) and not seeing the forest for the trees.

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  68. Dear 1:18

    Thank you for your comment. I too am a woman and must confess, I find the references to "pussies, bitches, and effete scholars" quite tiresome. It significantly lessens the effectiveness of the author's argument. But, in the scheme of things, most of the people that have been misused by law school empire builders are thoughtful and articulate. I hope you will re-consider and give these young people, the vast majority of whom are respectful, your support. They really were sold a bill of goods.

    And for those that as I am writing this post, are jumping all over this lady, calling her a troll, or otherwise using your justified anger to justify your unjustified uncivility, think first: this woman is a member of the wider public you are trying to reach in order to effect change. Her view of you matters.

    Tricia Dennis
    Chattanooga, TN

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  69. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  70. I see how pussy and bitch can be offensive, but why is effete scholar offensive?

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  71. One other question, why is the scamblog leadership so dominated by men? I can't think of one female scamblogger.

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  72. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  73. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  74. Dear 1:23 and 1:30:

    If it matters, if it gives my opinion more heft, I am not only a female law grad, I am a female practicing attorney and I've been doing it longer than I like to admit. I've even managed to make money doing it, even if it is, as some of you prefer to call it, "shit-law".

    Now that's out of the way---language is complicated, but good manners is not. I suppose I sound like your mother, but if words that you know are marginally borderline acceptable and others find them offensive, why insist upon using them? Really and truly, they don't add to your argument.

    As for telling a person interested in your cause to "get over themselves", I am simply baffled. You people need all the help you can get--you're in trouble, you are taking on a powerful cartel at a time that the public is distracted with their own economic woes and Dancing with the Stars and Congress is . . . doing whatever it is Congress does to avoid dealing with issues. Why unnecessarily push away someone that is offering, at least, sympathy to your cause?

    Maybe I really am to old to understand, so please, try to explain your thinking on this subject to me. I really want to know.

    Tricia Dennis

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  75. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  76. ...Metaphorically munnching popcorn while I watch you bloody arrogant Americans pecking each other to death like chickrns do whenever they smell blood on a weaker chickens' feathers...oh you Americans just LOVE to kill the perceivedly weak! But you're becoming weak, now, too....

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  77. Umm, no it doesn't. Also, grow up.

    1:34 pm: I have---you haven't or you wouldn't be telling me to "grow up". Sheesh. That's something my 19 year old would say.

    You are not helping your cause when you antagonize needlessly, people who are willing to go to bat for you. Would you allow a client you represent to speak so contemptuously and use such language in front of a jury? And don't tell me this is not a jury trial. If you really want to change the situation, you must convince a huge jury of millions of voters and lawmakers,and sorry to say, but this is reality, television pundits, that your cause is righteous and you're not just some snot-nosed spoiled kid. If you are a lawyer, act like one---think before you speak.

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  78. Some people just were not hugged enough as children.


    And the just beneath the surface woman hatred is really awful.

    you should take this advice:

    Dating Advice From "A Softer World"

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  79. And I'm a practicing atty in his late 30s.

    Really. The profession is in greater trouble than I imagined. (This is the point where you call me "fucktard" or "bitch" or better yet, look up more impressive words from the DSM-IV, because, you are so good at well-reasoned argument.) How well did name-calling work for you at your last Court of Appeals appearance? I bet you had the judges eating out of your hand.

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  80. Oh lord, now we have an anti-American (I know, Europe has no history at all of picking on weaker peoples) along with the sob sisters. How do you simpletons get through life?

    tdennis239 - if you're so pathetic not to see the weakness of your arguments after its been explained to you rather clearly then your contributions here won't be taken seriously. Also, if you're too childish to know that a guy can believe in equal rights and equal pay for women, hate the paternalism of more traditional societies, believe in gay rights and marriage while also calling another guy a pussy or effete then you live in a very tiny little world and yes, you do need to grow up.

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  81. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  82. Seriously, men around here just need to man up. Trish, you're awesome. "Non-law grad", you're awesome also. "Roid Boy", find something productive to do with your time like emailing law profs about the way you see things. "Guy Who Keeps Calling Roid Boy 'Asian'", do the same.

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  83. @2.11 - Check Tricia's profile, you can see she's a very experienced trial lawyer. Yourself?

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  84. Comment moderation please.

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  85. Biglaw...and .you? So now the level of idiocy somebody states is measured by what they do and for how long? The comments and logic just get dumber and dumber...

    Why aren't you all saving the world from naughty words since they are offending you so much? I suggest you start with the music industry, the rap world more specifically. Perhaps you shouldn't read the posts here since you're to sensitive.

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  86. 2:07
    What you say to whomever about whatever is your business. Use the most crude language you can think of---knock yourself out. But perhaps you should read a little more closely what I was saying. This is a public forum that some people troll searching for ammunition to discredit the view that law school is a scam. Probably, at this point, it is turning into one of the most legitimate because a law professor hosts it. Now, given those facts, if you can't figure out why you should take a stab at using civil language, then you either are (a)perhaps the one who is delusional; (b)someone who is a true believer in the law school cartel and have found a clever way through the use of crude language to discredit this blog and the issues it raises; (c) really, really angry; or (d) thick as a brick.

    There now---tit for tat---make you feel better? Have we sufficiently lowered the conversation about there being too many lawyers enough to suit you---fellow lawyer? Did our little exchange advance a solution to the problem? Or did it just make us both look idiotic and childish and play to all of the typical stereotypes of lawyers? Yeah . . . we're a real sympathetic bunch, aren't we?

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  87. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  88. so now you're moderating comments.....only like your version of muckraking, correct?

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  89. @2.28 - I work in patenting in-house at an MNC. Care to explain how exactly this argument, such as it is, is achieving anything? I think not. Basically -

    1) If you don't think Campos's letter will achieve much, then please suggest something meaningful that might.

    2) If you do think it will achieve something, what are you arguing against?

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  90. Campos, I now agree with your critics -- you are pathetic and a hypocrite. Congrats

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  91. FOARP - exactly. I didn't start this stupid argument (rolling eyes...hard). But whatever - campos has started censoring so enjoy your little politically correct world. Just another form of bullying....

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  92. Is it not surprising that this post has been attacked most severely of all?

    As for talk of 'censorship', this is Campos's blog - his blog, his rules.

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  93. You know what's funny? The words bitch and pussy don't show up in this thread until 1:18 and Tdennis started complaining about them! Seriously, do a control-F search. Congratulations TDennis and 1:18, you hijacked the thread by contriving a problem that didn't even exist until you brought it up. Meanwhile nothing is being done and Alex is dead.

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  94. FOARP - The post was not attacked but rather all the pearl-clutching of people like you who would rather discuss the tone of the discussion rather than the substance. Yea, his blog, his rules.....spoken like a tyrant.

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  95. @2:51 - EXACTLY right. This is what Ive been saying with all my comments. And now Campos is censoring comments that point that out....again, pathetic.

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  96. This is why the internet is far less effective than it could be. 1/10, no 1/100th, of the people here are sincere (LawProf being one of them) and the other 99% are on there to troll.

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  97. FYI - for anyone wondering, many of my comments were the ones deleted and I didn't call anyone a bitch or pussy. Just counter-arguments. Shame on you Campos.

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  98. I'm convinced there are law professors who read these comments and try to come up with wedge issues. I'm not kidding! They're probably especially concerned because of the talk of taking the protest outside of a petition and onto something real like a sit in.

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  99. @2.52 - Okay, tell me something about the substance of the letter.

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  100. FOARP - I don't need to tell you anything. The point was that people like you and tdennis were keeping the focus away from substance. YOU tell us something about the letter instead of moralizing.

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  101. @3.13 - I approve whole heartedly the proposal that schools should:

    "release clear, accurate, and reasonably comprehensive information regarding graduate employment, by for example implementing the proposals outlined in Part III of the Law School Transparency Project's white paper "A Way Forward: Transparency at U.S. Law Schools" (http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1528862.), so that prospective students may obtain adequate information regarding their likely future employment prospects."

    Because it would at least put the correct information into the hand's of the people for whom it will be of the greatest utility.

    Do you agree on this point?

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  102. FOARP - good job. You finally get it. please stay on point from now.

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  103. @3.31 - I am so very glad to see I have your approval. So, do you agree or disagree with the point outlined above?

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  104. FOARP - stop being childish. I don't engage in facetious overly-broad discussions to score some sort of rhetorical point. You are once again straying from the real issues and instead trying to be cute, no matter how much you will deny it.

    Furthermore, I don't discuss important matters with people who demonstrate a lack of seriousness (see above) and whom I don't have any respect for.

    Have a good day.

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  105. Anonymous (You know who you are).

    First things first, if you're the one going on about bench pressing, I think you should know that when people here write "re petitions" what we're talking about is an on-line petition, not pounding out "reps". So this may have ALL BEEN a BIG MISUNDERSTANDING. You're simply in the wrong spot on the intertubes.

    Second, though, did you write: "Let me give a video of what I mean when I say 10 hotel dishwashers matter more than you people, when I say 10 hotel dishwashers exercise their free will less fear than you people"?

    This is more of a response than you deserve, but if we were 10 people making a racket outside of one law school, you'd might have a point. As it is, we're thousands of hotel dishwashers trying to get something done with the NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF HOTELS. It requires a bit more thinking than just grabbing bunch of the pots and pans that are lying around work and banging on them for a bit.

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  106. "As it is, we're thousands of hotel dishwashers trying to get something done with the NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF HOTELS."

    Trying and failing. You'll see in two months.

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  107. Professor Campos,

    Please, please remove "anonymous" posting! If blogspot will let you, require a google/blogspot account for a login. Those who wish to remain anonymous can still create a throwaway google account to comment here.

    The fact that this would take an few extra mouseclicks will be enough to deter the most aggressively lowbrow commenters.

    You've got a fantastic blog and a few amazing commenters. It's being destroyed by all the folks who insist on flinging poo around.

    Thank you,

    b.

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  108. "Trying and failing."

    That's pretty much impossible.

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  109. FOARP - nobody thanked you. And you're the one who should be thanking people for the lessons you've hopefully learned. One day you'll grow up.

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  110. Thanks Lawprof for the moderation. Check out 4:02, I think that is the sort of thing you should target. That adds nothing. Just delete (or prevent) anything like that from being posted and I think you'll see dramatic improvement. Those of us with something substantive to say won't mind if our comments have to be held for moderation.

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  111. I realize it is probably hopeless at this point, but what if we used this as a constructive place to brainstorm and scaled back on the fighting?

    Personally, I think the petition is a good first step. But I also think more radical and local organizing is needed - we need representatives in schools to start organizing local chapters. Schools are, I suspect, more likely to listen to their current tuition base if it is raising a (not necessarily but potentially literal) racket.

    If you are a student, I recommend finding and partnering with an interested student group and using social media to put organized pressure on administrations; send emails en mass, make clear demands, and utilize your power - you are paying tuition and you deserve answers.

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  112. Lawprof - can you target 4:12 - that is the sort of thing we need to get rid of. Just adds nothing to the general discussion and is pointless personal opinion with no substance. Thanks.

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  113. FOARP: thank you for your kind words.

    Now,on to substance. On Oct. 20, 2011, the Tennessee Association for Justice is screening the movie "Hot Coffee" at the Belcourt Cinema in Nashville. That's down the street from Vanderbilt and the law school transparency guys. There will be many plaintiff lawyers there who might be interested in signing the petition. I wonder if the transparency folks could set up in the cinema lobby and get some signatures. Even better, it might be nice if they could make some pre-movie comments about what they are trying to do to the lawyers gathered there about what they are doing. Most actively practicing lawyers, I don't think, know what they are doing but would be interested in lending their support if they knew more. At least those in the plaintiff's bar. I don't know the law school transparency people but if you gentlemen see this post and want to discuss using the screening as a forum, let me know.

    You can find me in Chattanooga . My office is listed.

    Tricia Dennis

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  114. Sorry about the mangled English folks. Can't write on my IPad.

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  115. Rule 1 for internet commenting and life in general: if you want to criticize and moralize expect it in return.

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  116. Whether this petition achieves anything substantial or not, we can at least find out which law professors and administrators are REFUSING to sign it. Those that REFUSE to sign it then need to explain why they are not signing it or else they can be assumed to support the "scam" implicitly.

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  117. Also when I say REFUSE to sign it, I don't just mean they neglect to sign it. Rather I mean they explicitly say that they won't sign it because they don't agree with it. I don't know if any law school professor or admin will go that far but then at least they can be on record that they are AGAINST providing prospective students with material facts and want to continue the "law school scam".

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  118. How you are going to find out who refuses to sign it? This isn't an interrogatory or an RFA. lol.

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  119. PROFESSOR CAMPOS SWOOPED IN A MONTH OR SO AGO, AND DREW A LOT OF COMMENTERS OUT OF THE ROTTEN, SEA SLIMED, WOODWORK THAT STOOD BY SILENT, AND NEGLIGENTLY SO,

    MORE THAN NEGLIGENT

    CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT

    INHUMANELY AND SAVAGELY NEGLIGENT.

    ALL OF THE UNEARTHLY AND ALIEN HYPOCRITES WITH A VESTED INTEREST IN THE LAW SCHOOL INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX THAT NOW COMMENT, WITH SO MUCH ZEAL, ON THE BLOG OF THE PATSY, (CAMPOS) AND SAT BY, OVER THEIR RESPONSIBLE AND ADULT HISTORY,

    LIKE CRAVEN, PSYCHOLOGIALLY AND PATHOLOGICALLY DISTURBED BULLIES FROM A SCHOOLYARD.

    AND, AS THESE OVERPAID LEGAL ACADEMIC TYPES AND KICKBACK POLITICAL PARTNERS WATCH THE STUDENT LOAN BORROWER KID THAT THEY HAD JUST FINISHED BEATING UP IN A SCHOOLYARD FOR HIS OR HER LUNCH MONEY, CRAWL AROUND ON THE ASPHALT TO RETRIEVE THE SLAPPED- OFFED GLASSES, AND THE KNOCKED OFF BASEBALL CAP, AND THE PUNCHED OUT TEETH SO THAT THE DENTIST CAN MAYBE SAVE THEM.....

    THESE SAME COMMENTER COWARDS,ON THIS VERY BLOG, WHO NEVER BOTHERED TO SHOW THEIR COWARDLY FACES ON NANDO'S BLOG, OR ON THE OTHER TRUE AND HONEST BLOGS OF ANY OF THE OTHER TRUE SCAMBOGS OVER THE LAST TWO YEARS.....

    WHEN THE REAL SCAMBLOGGERS PUT THEIR VERY LIVES ON THE LINE, AS THERE ARE DEATH THREATS ON ME AND NANDO NOW.

    AND CAMPOS WILL NOT EVEN BE SO KIND AS TO VOUCHSAFE ANY THANKS OR FEEBLE LIP SERVICE AT ALL.....

    ....FOR THE HARMED, RUINED LIVES,AND HUMAN SUFFERING THAT HAVE MADE THIS HYPOCRITAL BLOG OF SOME STRANGER NAMED PAUL CAMPOS, WHO IS ALSO SOME KIND OF A WHATEVER, POSSIBLE IN THE FIRST PLACE:

    THAT IS AN INSULT

    RESPECT IS DUE.

    CAMPOS: YOUR MOTIVES ARE SUSPECT, AND YOU NEED TO STAND UP AND CLARIFY.

    The Crossroad I guess.

    By now, all I can conlude is that you shill for the soul and LIFE DESTROYING LAW SCHOOL INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX.

    PROFESSOR CAMPOS: YOU HAVE BROUGHT ALL THE GREEDY, STUDENT LOAN SUCKING RATS OUT OF HIDING.

    NOW, BE A HUMAN BEING, AND BE HONEST.

    STUDENT LOAN DEBT HAS RUINED MY LIFE.

    SO COME AND KILL ME.

    I DON'T CARE.

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  120. "How you are going to find out who refuses to sign it? This isn't an interrogatory or an RFA. lol."

    Perhaps you didn't read my clarification right below my first comment but what I meant by "refuse" is simply someone who when asked whether they agree with the statement or not EXPLICITLY say "No, I disagree with providing this kind of information and therefore won't sign it".

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  121. Who is going to ask them when you people are too cowardly to do anything in the real world?

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  122. Hm. Twice now my calls for more aggressive comment moderation have either been deleted or caught in the spam filter. Not sure what, if anything, was offensive about them, and I certainly didn't use any keywords that would get caught by the spam filter. Odd.

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  123. Move on.org has a petition calling for student loan forgiveness. Check it out.

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  124. Nice one, tdennis. Thanks!

    Not that it matters much, but I sort of dislike the idea of comment moderation.

    It should be no surprise to anyone that the room gets louder and louder (as it has done for a couple of years now) the more attention this gets. The fact that vested interests are going apeshit isn't the most unhelpful thing in the world.

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  125. One FYI regarding arguments in the comments section, if such arguments were allowed, 90% of information communicated on the internet wouldn't exist.

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  126. Campos starts a blog, and all the rats come out of the hold of the sinking ship of the Law School Industrial Complex, in mass waves, and start inundating this blog with comments, and mostly clinical, detached blowhard, hypocritical puffery.

    This is not the tone, nor the fault of Campos of course.

    But where the Hell were all of you for the last two years?

    If Campos had not started this blog, would all of you still be hiding under your rocks, or in the woodwork, silently reading Third Tier Reality and the other scamblogs?

    And, I suspect, colleting student loan dollars.

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  127. I have been following this blog from the beginning. Where are the hordes from the Law School Industrial Complex on the threads? For the most part, the range of differences of opinion here is pretty narrow. You would expect that given the subject matter. I see no evidence that the "vested interests are going apeshit". Several legal sites have written about this blog, and the comment sections to those posts are small. The coverage in the MSM has been negligible. It is easy to overestimate how many people read, and then, follow blogs. I do --probably more than I should--as a break from work. But most of my friends and colleagues do not. That is not a good or bad thing. People get information from different sources or choose to spend their time other ways.

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  128. Seriously, create a facebook page specifically for the pledge, so law students and lawyers, and maybe even a few brave professors, will make it known throughout their social networks. Ask a 10 year old to help you.

    I'll "like" it and post it on my wall, and everyone in my network will see it.

    No offense prof. campos, but this is pretty JV ball.

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  129. How about a petition that says the ABA should not accredit any more law schools? I think there would be a strong consensus for that.

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  130. Similarly, how about a petition that Marlon Brando should not put on any more weight?

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  131. @6.37 - A little bit late for that, but then I guess that's your point.

    @5.53, 5.58 - If I make a Facebook page, will you guys like it and pass it on?

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  132. FOARP, I can do it if you want. Otherwise, please send an email to LST so we can publicize it.

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  133. I'm sorry I don't understand how Facebook pages work in this context. If someone would create one for the petition I would be grateful.

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  134. I'd prefer it come from you prof. campos. Or something that you officially sanction.

    No offense, FORAP, but I am charging behind Prof. Campos' banner. I would be less likely to "like" or post your gestalt on prof. campos' pledge.

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  135. OK then I "officially" sanction it. I'm sorry I don't know more about social networking sites.

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  136. This is very exciting. Facebook and Twitter are much more powerful than Blogs and the publication of the letter on Facebook will reach a lot of folks with just one click. I have put this out to some national news contacts that I have. As I have said before, this dog will hunt!

    wdw

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