tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post8666967203377193615..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: Stigma and SilenceLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-85490614127319173862012-02-18T20:40:09.323-08:002012-02-18T20:40:09.323-08:00Why do non legal employers loathe a law degree? Yo...Why do non legal employers loathe a law degree? You will find that many employers feel threatened by anyone with any type of higher education, master's degree, JD, doesn't matter. Some employers even feel threatened by someone with a basic bachelor's degree. The less educated in our society often get ahead by keeping down others. If they can manage to get a job in a human resources office, they are going to do their dead level best to weed out anyone who might provoke their feelings of inferiority. This is based on my 25 years of experience in the workforce, but I think its an opinion that should be considered and addressed.Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03469446147426159902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-3354385882686950722012-02-06T11:52:26.402-08:002012-02-06T11:52:26.402-08:00Law Prof, I thought your comments made in this art...Law Prof, I thought your comments made in this article were right on!. It is obvious that the situation with law schools and over production of attorneys has been going on for some time. The embarrassment factor really is a huge mechanism to keep quiet, no one want to face the fact that they did everything right, but there just not making it as an attorney.Charlie Martinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-42916386444737741022012-02-04T12:52:37.110-08:002012-02-04T12:52:37.110-08:00MacK: Thanks.
5:37: You're absolutely right a...MacK: Thanks.<br /><br />5:37: You're absolutely right about the financial difficulty. The constant fear of running out of money has by far been my biggest source of stress. I have never been able to operate with truly adequate operating capital; my credit card balance has grown substantially.<br /><br />As far as your point about unethical lawyers: I honestly believe they're a tiny minority. The vast majority of lawyers I've encountered so far have been solo and small firm practitioners, and for the most part they've been highly professional, and often surprisingly willing to help out a beginner.Rob Switzerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06778772516365396329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-6621861113221926052012-02-04T06:05:07.759-08:002012-02-04T06:05:07.759-08:00Whoa, you're painting with a pretty broad brus...Whoa, you're painting with a pretty broad brush, there. You are suggesting that there is a "very nasty side" to "<i><b>a lot of small firms</b></i> based on a "brief experience" with one firm.<br /><br />I know literally hundreds of lawyers who practice in small firms of 10 lawyers or less, and your "brief experience" is not representative. Further, in my 20+ year career, I have encountered just as many questionable practices in bigger firms as I have in small firms.<br /><br />Sometimes it's important to know what you don't...know.Gregg Smithhttp://www.electriccityweblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-50147673116713052312012-02-03T17:37:52.476-08:002012-02-03T17:37:52.476-08:00I think the problem with going out for shitlaw isn...I think the problem with going out for shitlaw isn't so much the lack of prestige as it is the difficulty of doing so when you're already in a lot of debt. I know I would be happy doing it if I thought I could get by on it but I barely have the money to pay my rent, much less go into even more debt to essentially start a small business.<br /><br />There's also the fact that law school doesn't really prepare you for solo practice. I worked for awhile at a firm that would be described as shitlaw with the intent of taking some lumps but learning how to do things right. I ended up at what turned out to be a mill (average associate lasted about 3 months) that was overloaded with ethical problems. I was basically forced to quit when I refused to put my name on sketchy documents and asked what were clearly too many questions about the place's procedures. Then for my trouble I ended up having to file a complaint against the loser who owned the firm with the state Department of Labor in order to get my last two paychecks.<br /><br />There are some very good people out there doing shitlaw but the stereotypes exist for a reason and I got first-hand experience with it. Now, semi-luckily, I'm doing legal services stuff in the General Counsel's office of a big company. It isn't really fulfilling and my job doesn't require a JD but at least the checks cash, I have health insurance, and I get to go home at 5.<br /><br />I'm sure the folks posting have good, ethical small practices, but let's not romanticize it. There's a very nasty side to what goes on in a lot of small firms and in my brief experience I found a total lack of professionalism and ethics to be rampant.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-58439477062676257032012-02-03T10:01:52.441-08:002012-02-03T10:01:52.441-08:00Rob Switzer -
Good for you. Keep going, it is the...Rob Switzer -<br /><br />Good for you. Keep going, it is the only way.<br /><br /><br />MacKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-63801992203136474032012-02-03T09:20:31.494-08:002012-02-03T09:20:31.494-08:00Mr. Smith and Ms. Dennis:
I really, really apprec...Mr. Smith and Ms. Dennis:<br /><br />I really, really appreciate your sentiments, and want you to know there are a fair amount of us making a good run at what you did.<br /><br />I graduated in May 2010 from Toledo with a legal aid job lined up, which was rescinded after the organization underwent massive downsizing. After driving a cab for six months and not finding a new job, I hanged a shingle. I have a tiny office in a motel-turned office building.<br /><br />It's been really hard and I've gone through bouts of despair and depression, but I feel like my future is only getting brighter, especially in the last couple of weeks. <br /><br />I do exactly what you describe: divorces, criminal defense, landlord-tenant, small-time civil litigation. I HELP people, and represent a lot of people who would otherwise have a hard time affording representation. And I've general done well for them. <br /><br />This is not "shitlaw:" in my opinion, "shitlaw" is working 70 hours a week at "big law" reviewing documents and answering discovery and never feeling the personal impact of having changed someone's life. I feel sorry for those people.Rob Switzerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06778772516365396329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-66415119932386982222012-02-03T09:17:15.532-08:002012-02-03T09:17:15.532-08:00@TriciaDennis
One of the best things you could do...@TriciaDennis<br /><br />One of the best things you could do to help is find a young "small-law" lawyer trying to make it on his or her own and let them receive mail and phone messages at your office and use your conference room for the rare client meeting or deposition. If you're aiming for Sainthood, teach a free or low-cost CLE course.<br /><br />I'm a new grad with a non-JD job and about a client and a half of business. In my jurisdiction it costs a couple hundred bucks just to file suit and God help you if you have to serve more than a couple people. Someone like me would fall all over the opportunity to pretend like I had a real office. Limiting your liability would be fairly simple and you'd be making a real contribution to the future of the profession.DZnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-20276753358373057982012-02-03T09:16:01.318-08:002012-02-03T09:16:01.318-08:00Mr Smith and Ms. Dennis:
That has been pretty wel...Mr Smith and Ms. Dennis:<br /><br />That has been pretty well the world for me - though I represent clients that pay more, I am in two small firms on different continents and we have represented companies from around the kitchen table to being worth billions - and it did not happen overnight. We do some small work pro-bono or for minimal charges for small business, usually because a big player it trying to use its massive legal budget and Baker & McKenzie or Linklaters to crush them and it just pisses us off.<br /><br />I am in two firms of 5-10 lawyers in 2 countries and the clients are pretty blue-chip, but as you say it could all go away tomorrow, so today I earn, but who knows, next week it could be nothing - but that has always been the way of the profession.<br /><br />I nearly ended up in big-law a few times - the first time as a new graduate the offices broke up in the city they wanted me in after I finished my clerkship, later after being a GC for big name companies the big firms wanted me to guarantee a book of business - in return for which they would throw me maybe 1/3 of my billings - and I had to promise I could milk clients for $x-million and I turned that down and joined a classmate and a friend in a firm we are building - along with rejoining another firm in another country as of counsel. <br /><br />Our office is an old warehouse in a toughish part of town - because the nicer offices we had in the financial district were never visited by any of our clients - hell I never went there. Tech people....<br /><br />One of the biggest issues I see in the cost of law school is that no one has the real wherewithal to set up a firm anymore. Graduates in the last 3-5 years are for the most part so deeply mired in debt that even when they have a few years experience they cannot take the risk of hanging a shingle - they can't take the chance of a few months with no income. Meanwhile the big firms are set up with such massive overheads that they really need to keep the associates billing at $400 and the partners at $800 and cannot cut any sort of deal for a client.<br /><br />It as our very ability to be flexible with clients that helped us grow and take business away from the biggest and most prestigious firms in town - and partners. I'm not getting rich the way a Cravath partner does, and my office is a bit of a dump (I'm messy) but I am earning into the medium six figures - I'm happy doing it - and I am happy that what we do for our clients adds value and not just billed hours.<br /><br />MacKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-59868761571155568852012-02-03T09:00:24.338-08:002012-02-03T09:00:24.338-08:00"your shitty law review articles are not read..."your shitty law review articles are not read by anyone and that never stopped you."<br /><br />Because no one reads law review articles, including your own. BTW you're not a philosopher. You host a shitty blog that doesn't allow comments, and yet obsessively troll the internet anonymously commenting on others' blogs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-4517764484963955492012-02-03T07:10:57.012-08:002012-02-03T07:10:57.012-08:00@Mr. Smith
I am so glad to see a fellow traveller...@Mr. Smith<br /><br />I am so glad to see a fellow traveller on this blog. Everything you said is true. I wish our generation of small law could figure out a way to help these bright talented young people. If these folks could get some debt relief, maybe they would have a shot at doing heat we did (which in my view is the only bearable way to practice law.). <br /><br />I hope you will post more in the future.<br /><br />Tricia DennisAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01659995537790248686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-64824922680922830722012-02-03T07:09:27.094-08:002012-02-03T07:09:27.094-08:00I've been reading news stories of the lawsuits...I've been reading news stories of the lawsuits and am amazed by the readers who want to blame the law students. This is a very popular position, maybe even the majority position.<br /><br />This response seems clearly irrational. Even if the students are partially to blame for not doing sufficient research or for feeling entitled, that has nothing to do with the intentional publishing of misleading employment statistics, which almost nobody attempts to defend. Even the people blaming the law students don't defend the stats other than to say students should have known better and that "of course" the law schools were lying to them. <br /><br />But I'm sure these people don't carry that attitude consistently. Do these people go around assuming that everybody is lying to them all the time? Do we not live in a society with consumer protections and government regulations designed to force some honesty out of people? Is it really so "stupid" to assume the law schools are telling you the truth? Is it stupid to trust that some governing body is forcing them to?<br /><br />A favorite line of these haters is to say that obviously the failed students would be poor lawyers, since they failed to do their research. This is also completely irrelevant to whether law schools are lying. Not only that, but the implication seems to be that being a poor lawyer means you deserve to be defrauded. Maybe most law school applicants really would be poor lawyers, why does that make it ok to sell them snake oil? If they are so unsophisticated, isn't that an argument exactly for the kinds of protections scam-bloggers are calling for?<br /><br />These "arguments" utterly fail to stand up to any kind of scrutiny, and yet they are being repeated over and over by smart people in the comments sections of smart publications. What can possibly explain this?<br /><br />Some part of it I suppose you can attribute to conservative/libertarian philosophy generally, but I find it surprising that conservative/libertarians are willing to let law schools and law school professors off the hook so easily.<br /><br />I think the real reason must be that people simply HATE lawyers and/or law students and this hatred blinds them to reason. Not only that, but they really do ENJOY hearing the pathetic stories of failed law students. <br /><br />Anyway, I know a lot of people here resist calls to lump the law school scam story into the larger education picture generally. I understand why, because so many law professors want to do this as a means to avoid any individual responsibility. But if the movement is to get any traction at all with the public, it has to be about college generally and not about law school. The public hates law school students and is actually happy to see them suffer. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-44190358799247445322012-02-03T05:58:40.692-08:002012-02-03T05:58:40.692-08:00Its so stupid when people “correct” other people’s...Its so stupid when people “correct” other people’s spelling errors on blogs… it makes me hate people that much more.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-71978972150809461632012-02-03T05:22:42.318-08:002012-02-03T05:22:42.318-08:0011:20: Thank you for your testimony. Stories like ...11:20: Thank you for your testimony. Stories like yours -- and as you say there's nothing atypical about yours -- are ultimately more powerful than any purely academic analysis could be in the fight to bring about reform.LawProfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-34591455619958755842012-02-03T04:54:01.548-08:002012-02-03T04:54:01.548-08:00Oh cry me a river, 11:20. Sorry that law school de...Oh cry me a river, 11:20. Sorry that law school destroyed your life. But without the law school scam we wouldn't have the "scholarship" of those like Prof X, whose general body of work gets less attention than each post on this blog<br /><br />---------------<br /><br /> your shitty law review articles are not read by anyone and that never stopped you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-83731997997189981722012-02-03T04:23:28.986-08:002012-02-03T04:23:28.986-08:00Oh, what have they done to my profession? It might...Oh, what have they done to my profession? It might sound quaint to most of the younger folks here, but when I graduated from law school ('88), a common reason we all went there was to, I don't know, occasionally try to HELP PEOPLE.<br /><br />Now that's called shitlaw.<br /><br />Don't get me wrong; I understand the reality that a young man or woman with $150,000 in debt really doesn't have the option of building a practice. These people HAVE to hold out for the brass ring.<br /><br />When I started, it was common for younger lawyers to do a lot of 'people work.' Some small criminal defense, divorce, minor litigation. We cut our teeth on that stuff. If a guy worked his butt off and treated his clients well after 5-10 years he'd be making $100k a year. Not everyone got there, but not everyone succeeds in ANY profession.<br /><br />Maybe you didn't get rich, but this was real, 'boots on the ground', law practice. You were in and out of court, busy as heck, and building a book of business. Eventually, you graduated to more stable clients, maybe an insurance company or two, the occasional plaintiff's settlement. Hell, I've won a class action settlement for a plaintiff class, represented my favorite law professor against my own law school, and now have enough clients to feed myself and a couple other lawyers/paralegals.<br /><br />Like tdennis says, it's pretty fun too.<br /><br />Most of us didn't care about landing the BIGLAW job, pushing paper, and mindlessly dreaming up discovery requests or complicated paragraphs for M&A agreements. We were doing real work for real people...still are to some degree.<br /><br />Now, the greedy bastards have unleashed a gazillion young lawyers with a gazillion in debt. I think there is still opportunity out there to build a practice like I and my colleagues have done, but who can afford to do it?<br /><br />Ironically, some of the same people who are constantly hectoring us about providing legal services to the poor are the ones who helped cause the problem.<br /><br />My practice isn't god's work, I've had to make some good business deals to get what I've got, and there are no guarantees I'll be around tomorrow. It is, however, honest and interesting work, I get to control my own life, and help some people along the way. I could have it a lot worse.<br /><br />Prof. Campos, on the other hand, IS doing god's work. It saddens me to see, day in and day out, how our legal education system is harming not only the lives of countless young lawyers, but also the practice of law.Gregg Smithhttp://www.electriccityweblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-68774508172016195262012-02-03T03:57:12.046-08:002012-02-03T03:57:12.046-08:0011:20 thanks it is imperative that she not quit he...11:20 thanks it is imperative that she not quit her job. it is also crucially important that he tell her about the depression statistics. otherwise they will ruin not only her life but also his life since he is married to her.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-43909709502769366272012-02-03T00:36:08.050-08:002012-02-03T00:36:08.050-08:00@11.27 Why are you censoring posts now, lawprof
B...@11.27 Why are you censoring posts now, lawprof<br /><br />Because it's the only way to keep the comments section readable and on track, and Inam all for censoring posts on a private blog.<br /><br />Law prof, great writing, while I have nothing to do with law I really have enjoyed your blog<br /><br />RobRob I have a name Madridhttp://www.chrislederman.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-80096118270192380002012-02-03T00:24:15.545-08:002012-02-03T00:24:15.545-08:00Oh cry me a river, 11:20. Sorry that law school de...Oh cry me a river, 11:20. Sorry that law school destroyed your life. But without the law school scam we wouldn't have the "scholarship" of those like Prof X, whose general body of work gets less attention than each post on this blog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-34363011964908788252012-02-02T23:20:27.333-08:002012-02-02T23:20:27.333-08:00"My wife has just told me that she wants to g..."My wife has just told me that she wants to go to our local (California-accredited, but not ABA) law school, which has a tuition of $54,000 over 4 years. She makes less than that now, and I think it's unlikely that the law job economy will improve by then." - 5:58pm<br /><br />@5:58 - <br />I don't know if this will work, but you can tell her the following, true story:<br /><br />I wanted to also work in public interest law working for a non-profit. So, I spent years to do it, just like she will. Before law school, I made about $35,000 a year in my non-legal jobs. Paid about $60,000 for law school. Worked an additional year and a half FOR FREE after law school in unpaid internships(gotta show 'em you're eager, that you want to do the work so bad, that you'll sacrifice a salary.) = another $50,000 in lost salary to work for free.<br /><br />End result: Paid $80,000 for law school (my $60,000 with ever-increasing interest has now increased to $80,000), Lost $105,000 in salary for the 3 years in law school, had to take out an additional $10,000 a year for living expenses those 3 years ($30,000), lost another $50,000 in lost salary the year and a half I worked at unpaid internships. Plus, I paid $4,000 to study for the bar and lost another $6,000 in salary so that I could study for the bar = $10,000<br /><br />CURRENT SALARY - $13,000 a year for a non-legal job<br /><br />WHAT I COULD HAVE EARNED THOSE FOUR A HALF YEARS I WAS IN LAW SCHOOL AND WORKING FOR FREE AFTER GRADUATING - $155,000. <br /><br />WHAT I ACTUALLY EARNED IN THE FOUR AND A HALF YEARS SINCE STARTING LAW SCHOOL - $13,000. <br /><br />MY TOTAL COSTS FOR ENTERING THE LEGAL PROFESSION - (includes cost of tuition plus interest on student loans, bar fees, loans for living expenses, salary lost while in law school and doing unpaid internships - $275,000<br /><br />TOTAL NET LOSS SINCE GOING TO LAW SCHOOL -SALARY OF $13,000 MINUS COST OF $275,000 = LOSS OF $272,000<br /><br />END RESULT - working in a non-legal job for $13,000 a year, which has nothing to do w/ my original goal of working in public interest law. A JD is not needed to do my current job.<br /><br />SUMMARY - Paid $275,000, lost four a half years of my life, did not do anything even remotely connected to my dream. <br /><br />CAVEAT - I am not a bad example. I speak 4 languages, worked overseas in gov, worked for a federal judge and a prosecutor's office, was an Honors Scholar in law school, on the Dean's List, on a National Team, graduated undergrad with high honors from an American and European university and have 15 years strong, solid work experience with excellent references. I am the new normal and will never have the opportunity to work in law.<br /><br />FINAL WORD: If it can happen to me, IT CAN HAPPEN TO HER and given the direction of the legal market, it probably will. SHE SHOULD ASK HERSELF IF SHE WANTS TO PAY THIS KIND OF MONEY FOR THESE KIND OF RESULTS.<br /><br />GO INTO ANOTHER FIELD! You'll get much better results!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-88948441900702258952012-02-02T22:13:31.954-08:002012-02-02T22:13:31.954-08:00Prof X, does it pain you that no one even pays att...Prof X, does it pain you that no one even pays attention to your posts? And what's with the "20 years too late" comment? I thought you (and others) have been talking about this issue for only the past decade.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-47132285953389335682012-02-02T20:37:55.500-08:002012-02-02T20:37:55.500-08:008:15 - agreed, plus (speaking as a BigLaw litigato...8:15 - agreed, plus (speaking as a BigLaw litigator alum), BigLaw is the true "shitlaw." Awful working environment, awful hours, and more or less pointless paper-pushing discovery-based litigation for faceless, interchangeable corporations. Now, I represent individual, indigent clients (my paycheck comes from the government) ... and it's the first time in my life that I feel that I'm really practicing law. Mindless privilege logs and pro forma interrogatory/document requests = felt like glorified, overpaid, barely-more-than-clerical work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-50042739452054732392012-02-02T20:36:31.888-08:002012-02-02T20:36:31.888-08:008:15 again. I see that the BLS numbers have some ...8:15 again. I see that the BLS numbers have some real problems: they exclude partners and solos.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-68683342501059291382012-02-02T20:15:39.324-08:002012-02-02T20:15:39.324-08:00That salary map is BLS data, so it's probably ...That salary map is BLS data, so it's probably reasonably valid for people actually employed in May 2009. Those are means, not medians, so the "1%" distort the numbers.<br /><br />I share Tricia's view of the term "shitlaw" -- it's an unforgivable insult to the millions of ordinary people, who have legal problems, and really need someone to help with them. I understand that debt levels are a real problem: shouldn't IBR take the edge off this, though? Yes, you're not going to live a UMC life -- you'll be an ordinary person helping ordinary people with their problems, and making enough to live an ordinary life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-22740571887036205122012-02-02T20:03:14.425-08:002012-02-02T20:03:14.425-08:00@ 7:47
I noticed that, but the uncredited college...@ 7:47<br /><br />I noticed that, but the uncredited colleges (and some of the ABA ones) have pretty abysmal rates as well. Maybe hit the ground running and starting BarBri right away? <br /><br />I know nobody in Cali so I am just throwing darts here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com