tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post8547981291605585420..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: Know when to walk away, and know when to runLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-72206279912442295432011-11-09T07:51:12.466-08:002011-11-09T07:51:12.466-08:00A friend of mine went to law school for 2 years, h...A friend of mine went to law school for 2 years, hated it, dropped out, and moved to Wyoming to study natural resources. She now runs a Yoga studio and couldn't be happier. I think her only regret is waiting until the second year to drop out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-4425544026252776652011-11-01T05:22:47.190-07:002011-11-01T05:22:47.190-07:00"Don’t go to law school if you don’t know muc..."Don’t go to law school if you don’t know much of anything about what the actual practice of law is actually like."<br /><br />Amen. BTW, many firms will hire recent BA grads as paralegals. It is a good way to see the practice from the inside and get to know some lawyers. I have persuaded a couple of kids to do that. They both rethought the law school gig.<br /><br />"Those factors include ... the cultural cache that’s still attached to calling yourself a lawyer"<br /><br />A cache is a hiding place. You meant "cachet" a sign of superior status or prestige.Fat Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09554029467445000453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-77416106444557746862011-10-28T11:24:08.225-07:002011-10-28T11:24:08.225-07:00It doesn't really. It's IBR with slightly...It doesn't really. It's IBR with slightly lower numbers; if you're not able to pay back your loans you can make lower payments but you'll be in debt for a long time - meanwhile you'll still have large loans with interest piling up on top of them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-74406577554943548712011-10-26T04:47:22.251-07:002011-10-26T04:47:22.251-07:00So how does this impact law future students?So how does <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/26/education/26debt.html" rel="nofollow"> this</a> impact law future students?Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16073977968132093882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-13115494614021688972011-10-26T02:01:58.032-07:002011-10-26T02:01:58.032-07:00I think Ooi's point is that the answer should ...I think Ooi's point is that the answer should be fairly obvious - is it worth going into a large amount of debt and taking three years out of your life unless there is a good (75%+) chance of getting a job which will repay both the money borrowed, and compensate for opportunities lost during those three years? The answer is a very obvious no.Gilman Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06607416440240634159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-33681433127585485002011-10-26T01:43:36.936-07:002011-10-26T01:43:36.936-07:00Mr/Ms Ooi, taking on $100K in debt and spending th...Mr/Ms Ooi, taking on $100K in debt and spending three more years in school is no big deal. But only if you are guaranteed (more or less) a 160k per annum job upon graduation, and not when most law graduates struggle to find decent employment - the definition of which is no longer the 160k typical of quoted figures, but closer to that of 40-60k, which is really just a middle-class wage with little room for family or debt repayment. <br />There is a difference between law professors writing responsa to legal issues - what they say isn't the law. They don't determine the lives of clients. It's up to judges and juries. But judges and juries do not provide the advice prospective law students need when considering whether to go to law school. Law professors are perhaps the best placed to offer advice - provided they are actually telling the truth, which according to LawProf does seem to be a rare occurrence.<br />I wish you wouldn't be quite so cavalier about debt, Mr/Ms Ooi.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10099710048278105758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-49399662875590976572011-10-25T23:46:31.663-07:002011-10-25T23:46:31.663-07:00"Giving advice is always tricky, especially w..."Giving advice is always tricky, especially when you’re dealing with something as potentially complex as the decision to go to, or to stay in, law school."<br /><br />This shows the bubble in which law professors live (no offense, it seems you've already admitted as much). Professors should think about giving advice, on a daily basis, to people who might go to jail, who might lose their life's savings in a lawsuit, or who might lose millions if a deal falls through. Advice in these situations is tricky. Advice on a decision to take on over $100K in debt and spend 3 more years in school is not so tricky.Ooinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-45290255933690154402011-10-25T22:33:15.431-07:002011-10-25T22:33:15.431-07:00Interesting post: http://persephonemagazine.com/20...Interesting post: http://persephonemagazine.com/2011/10/dont-even-get-me-started-mythical-bootstraps-college-student/Gilman Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06607416440240634159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-65786770598952076272011-10-25T17:05:46.250-07:002011-10-25T17:05:46.250-07:00@4:16 p.m.:
prospective law students are not in t...@4:16 p.m.:<br /><br /><i>prospective law students are not in the same relationship as a lawyer is to a client</i><br /><br />Why aren't they? Law schools are staffed by lawyers rendering a service to paying clients. Is there something I missed in the MRPC that says a lawyer is answerable for all ethical failures while providing legal counsel, but is free to screw whomever he likes if he's got his professor hat on?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02282378622563612578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-13986441347363420112011-10-25T16:23:03.322-07:002011-10-25T16:23:03.322-07:00circumstancecircumstanceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-25692532766678503942011-10-25T16:16:34.038-07:002011-10-25T16:16:34.038-07:00Okay it didn't appear in red when posted.Okay it didn't appear in red when posted.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-47202202529063491872011-10-25T16:16:06.684-07:002011-10-25T16:16:06.684-07:00I'm sorry DJM, prospective law students are no...I'm sorry DJM, prospective law students are not in the same relationship as a lawyer is to a client. The lawyer-client relationship gives rise to a whole host of duties, responsibilities, and privileges. You can't pick the ones you want and have them apply to an inapposite (why is that in red, that's how you spell it?) circumstances.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-77592013473847416202011-10-25T15:04:42.304-07:002011-10-25T15:04:42.304-07:00Look, all you need is to get past the Motion to Di...Look, all you need is to get past the Motion to Dismiss in order to undertake discovery. As a trial lawyer that is the first and most important step. Remember, the good faith factual allegations of the complaint are taken as true for purposes of Rule 12. I think that if you can win a Rule 12(b) motion you have won the case. No law school wants to have to say in a document filed in court that they are not bound by the ethical rules. The publicity would kill them! The ABA would go nuts! You win!!Law Office Computinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16741029082116341276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-10957237353342313342011-10-25T14:43:33.392-07:002011-10-25T14:43:33.392-07:001:51 I would hardly call law students sophisticate...1:51 I would hardly call law students sophisticated consumers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-73737659424836610442011-10-25T14:30:18.800-07:002011-10-25T14:30:18.800-07:00The first step is to create the spreadsheet. Isn&#...The first step is to create the spreadsheet. Isn't there a list somewhere of all the professors with their school and contact information? I recall Brian Leiter referring to it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-58596300112945156692011-10-25T14:29:33.278-07:002011-10-25T14:29:33.278-07:00@2.12 - And have you signed up to do this?@2.12 - And have you signed up to do this?Gilman Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06607416440240634159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-66697866543661070672011-10-25T14:12:15.697-07:002011-10-25T14:12:15.697-07:00You all have the power to do something about it, o...You all have the power to do something about it, one step at a time.<br /><br />1. Prepare a website listing every professor and whether they have responded to the request to sign the petition. (Easy to do by creating a public excel document in hotmail).<br /><br />2. Every time you get upset about the law school scam, contact one professor and talk with him or her about the petition.<br /><br />3. Update whoever administers the spreadsheet (Lawprof I imagine) on your progress.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-14775120746072848622011-10-25T14:02:58.905-07:002011-10-25T14:02:58.905-07:00@vbp
As someone with an eight-year career in teac...@vbp<br /><br />As someone with an eight-year career in teaching test prep*, I disagree about your assertions about the LSAT. Like almost all other standardized admissions tests**, it exists as a measure of socialization and conditioning toward a very specific problem set that is not really representative of professional practice in whatever field it serves as a gatekeeper for.<br /><br />Sure, if you struggle to get a 140, law school is not for you; but it's possible to do less perfectly than is required for admission to the top 3 law schools and still have perfectly fine critical- and logical-thinking abilities.<br /><br />* another kind of scam. What improves your scores is not the teacher or the seekrit techniques but the consistent practice at the narrow skillset used by the test.<br /><br />** I would include the MCAT, though it's one of the better oens; it's mainly about basic sciences stuff that isn't directly involved with a lot of medical practice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-27276676016055681562011-10-25T13:51:42.857-07:002011-10-25T13:51:42.857-07:00Unfortunately, I suspect some law schools might cl...Unfortunately, I suspect some law schools might claim no ethical obligation. The academy these days (and not just law schools) seems to vacillate widely between invoking market principles (caveat emptor!) and resisting them (we shouldn't pander to students!).<br /><br />But for law schools, I would look by analogy at MPRC 7.1 (Communications Concerning a Lawyer's Services). A lawyer's duty, when communicating with potential clients, is much deeper than caveat emptor. The lawyer cannot "omit[] a fact necessary to make the statement considered as a whole not materially misleading." Comments, cases, and ethical opinions elaborate on that.<br /><br />I'm not sure if a textualist (Justice Scalia, anyone?) would apply this rule to law schools. Schools sell legal education, which may not be a "legal service." But law schools are part of the legal profession, and education might be one of our services. More important, it seems to me that the policies and ethical principles of this rule translate directly. Lawyers hold a privileged, trade protected spot in the market; they do so in part because they promise *not* to follow the most aggressive market techniques. One important example is disclosing material information to potential clients--even though another type of businessperson could rely on caveat emptor.<br /><br />Law schools benefit from the same privileged, market protected positions. And potential law students are *not* lawyers. Their position seems analogous to that of potential clients--many of whom are actually quite sophisticated. I think the analogy is pretty strong.<br /><br />Not to mention, of course, ethical obligations that law profs and administrators should feel to people who will soon be colleagues in the legal profession...And then there's always MRPC 8.4. PS I tried adopting the hipper ID of "DJM" but an earlier comment must have gone into spam. So I'll go back to my unwieldy full ID until "DJM" gets approved.DJMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05131222175697527769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-89140521688478128222011-10-25T12:27:47.740-07:002011-10-25T12:27:47.740-07:00Terry--
I am being serious here. Could you fashion...Terry--<br />I am being serious here. Could you fashion a claim that would withstand a motion to dismiss based up the claim that the law school has an ethical duty to disclose what it knows, as well as what it does not know, to a purchaser of its product. Would the law school file a Motion to Dismiss that claimed as a matter of law there is no ethical duty of disclosure?<br />Really??Law Office Computinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16741029082116341276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-366912405884238692011-10-25T10:56:44.999-07:002011-10-25T10:56:44.999-07:00I think it's useful to add a specific grade cr...I think it's useful to add a specific grade criterion to the 'do you love it' equation. Even if you love it, if you're not in the upper percentiles, think hard about your options. Is the education as it's actually unfolding going to get you where you want to go? If not, do something else.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-49034034408617634822011-10-25T10:43:52.677-07:002011-10-25T10:43:52.677-07:00I encourage prospective students, not only to take...I encourage prospective students, not only to take a hard look at the realities of the legal market, but to think again about alternative careers they would love but may have too quickly dismissed. In the new economy, some creative careers actually stack up rather well against law. At the same time that law has declined in income and security, jobs in stage design, lighting design, computer game design, etc. have gained some traction. These jobs lack the income and security that law had 20 years ago--and they still carry many risks--but the question for today's college grads is: How do these jobs compare with the present and future of law practice? If a creative job is one you will love, and that you can undertake with no loans, maybe it is a better prospect.<br /><br />I've also known students who decided that elementary or secondary teaching was a better choice today than law. Twenty years ago, some of these students would have regretfully given up teaching because a law degree promised much more income and prestige. But for students who find a passion for teaching, the choice is different today. We don't pay elementary/secondary teachers nearly as much as we should, but the loans stop after college and the pay matches what some law grads are finding.<br /><br />For many, I recommend Steven Pink's book, "A Whole New Mind." Pink explores the difference between information jobs, which are declining due to automation and outsourcing, and conceptual jobs--which are more likely to remain. There's also an interesting series running on Slate right now, "Will Robots Steal Your Job," http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/robot_invasion/2011/09/will_robots_steal_your_job.html. It includes a segment specifically on lawyers.<br /><br />I believe that there will be conceptual level jobs for lawyers in the emerging economy, but there won't be nearly as many of them as there were for knowledge level lawyering at the end of the twentieth century. And we'll need to completely revamp our law schools to address those conceptual jobs. Meanwhile, these are interesting reads--and very helpful, I think, for people considering law school.DJMhttp://moritzlaw.osu.edu/faculty/bios.php?ID=38noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-6165519320886905442011-10-25T10:06:50.538-07:002011-10-25T10:06:50.538-07:00The specific fiduciary duty regarding "suitab...The specific fiduciary duty regarding "suitability" is embedded within the Self-Regulatory Organization rule-sets (e.g., FINRA, NYSE). <br /><br /><br />Ethical duty, Ha. That would require uncomfortable self-analysis regarding the victims of the law school scam. <br /><br />I can see it now.<br /><br />John Q. Law Professor: "can I cash this paycheck knowing that a majority of it comes from the debt slavery of unwitting 22 year olds?"<br /><br />The civil war was about "states rights," and law schools are paragons of ethical virtue.Terry Malloynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-14062616388452925172011-10-25T09:59:04.451-07:002011-10-25T09:59:04.451-07:00Terry-
Why don't they have that duty? One woul...Terry-<br />Why don't they have that duty? One would think they have at least an ethical duty that is similar.Law Office Computinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16741029082116341276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-23161288302609335742011-10-25T09:41:40.724-07:002011-10-25T09:41:40.724-07:00Don’t throw good money after bad. Those chips in t...<i>Don’t throw good money after bad. Those chips in the pot no longer belong to you: don’t try to draw to inside straight, in either law school or life.</i><br /><br /><br />Amen. <br /><br />On a somewhat unrelated note: in the financial industry there is the concept of "suitability." That a fiduciary, generally a registered representative, must ensure that an investment's risk profile is suitable for a customer. If law schools owed a fiduciary duty to their students, they would be guilty of convincing their students (customers) that penny stocks have a safe return similar to Treasury Bills.Terry Malloynoreply@blogger.com