tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post8503935336178103337..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: Tournament guildLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger72125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-48796954285941136922012-12-23T19:51:54.668-08:002012-12-23T19:51:54.668-08:00There is no question the legal profession is a sys...There is no question the legal profession is a system that pits generations against one another. There are not enough jobs for the number of lawyers. Experienced lawyers are competing with entry level lawyers for jobs.<br /><br />Also, no question that tournament guild is an apt description of the system that exists in the legal profession today. <br /><br />One thing that special snowflake system confers - a belief that going to a top law school and doing well there puts one in a limited entry guild. Nothing is further from the truth. For grads of top law schools, the tournament guild just starts a little later than for other law school grads.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-47228776430476625862012-12-21T10:28:45.322-08:002012-12-21T10:28:45.322-08:006:36, I don't pity myself, I have a stable job...6:36, I don't pity myself, I have a stable job and have had one since I graduated. I do have sympathy for 25 year olds with debt and no prospects. I just think it's *relatively* easier for those people to start over than someone who is 55 with no prospects. I'm not getting why you think it's the opposite. The younger person has more time, is more likely to be hired for entry level jobs, probably has fewer health problems, etc. And I include myself in that category. Like I said, if my job went away tomorrow, even with my debt (which I'm guessing is just as large or larger than yours), I would try to do something else. Honestly, I might be a lot happier doing something else. But am I going to give up my good salary that allows me to meet my loan obligations to do that? No. If circumstances beyond my control forced me to, I would. Pitting generations against each other does nothing. All generations of lawyers are hurt by oversupply, except maybe those 70 year olds who are still practicing by choice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-18003221282678590602012-12-21T06:36:47.630-08:002012-12-21T06:36:47.630-08:00"Dude" at 7:30: What part of "The ..."Dude" at 7:30: What part of "The 25 yo with the useless degree is also likely to be saddled with non-dischargeable 6-figure debt and the scarlet letters JD which prevents him/her from obtaining a decent job in other fields" don't you understand? You can offer straws to fit your argument all day long, the fact is a 25 yo in this situation is going to have a difficult time finding an "alternate career" that will allow them to manage their debt and have a decently enjoyable life.<br /><br />Oh, and I'm 35, douche, I very much doubt you are 36, but whatever... if there's anybody on this board looking to hold a pity party for themselves it's you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-49453125123212489562012-12-21T05:25:54.995-08:002012-12-21T05:25:54.995-08:00And the system perpetuates itself by convincing th...And the system perpetuates itself by convincing the losers that their failure is their own fault.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-92175152063431046512012-12-20T22:25:13.095-08:002012-12-20T22:25:13.095-08:00Becoming a master of a tournament guild creates sm...Becoming a master of a tournament guild creates smugness and great wealth, which are both nice to have. The reason it is durable is that people with the intelligence and drive to overturn the system are usually able to obtain a position as a master. Moral people like Campos are aberrations, most people whining in the comments would not only take a job, but try hard at a job, at the admissions office if a new for profit TTTT. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-90036959235242631982012-12-20T22:24:11.596-08:002012-12-20T22:24:11.596-08:00They don't believe there are too few lawyers. ...They don't believe there are too few lawyers. They just say they believe it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-69563647226670233502012-12-20T20:48:12.485-08:002012-12-20T20:48:12.485-08:00I think its both prestige and money. Being a lawye...I think its <i>both</i> prestige and money. Being a lawyer is still regarded as being enormously prestigious, and naive people assume this prestige automatically means a decent, at least, living.<br /><br />I don't know why the practice of law is regarded as being so prestigious, as from reading this and other blogs you can see that the reality is far more mundane. But this prestige is something that's been building for decades, if not centuries. <br /><br />This accumulated prestige is actually a valuable resource which all these sub-par diploma mill law schools have learned to exploit. They are actually strip-mining it as fast as they can, and they don't even realize what they are doing. By the time they are done the practice of law will be about as prestigious as the practice of selling used cars.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-9998740732142411902012-12-20T19:30:21.597-08:002012-12-20T19:30:21.597-08:002:34, I'm the one who posted about 50 v. 25 ye...2:34, I'm the one who posted about 50 v. 25 year olds. I'm not a boomer. I'm 36 years old, which I'm sure seems "suuuuper like tottttalllly olllld" to you, but actually is not. If you honestly think that someone who has a lifetime to pick an alternate career and be successful in it is in the same position as someone 10 years from retirement with only one skill that is no longer marketable, there is no hope for you. Get outside your self pity for a second and look at the bigger picture, please. Shoot, I've got 6 figures in debt too, AND if I couldn't get a job in law anymore I would go back to school, take on more debt, and do something else! Life goes on, dude, it really does.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-86501958562502751742012-12-20T17:20:09.277-08:002012-12-20T17:20:09.277-08:00Hi Barry,
Believe it. They are.
-QSHi Barry,<br /><br />Believe it. They are.<br /><br />-QSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-81649278487025521952012-12-20T17:13:34.814-08:002012-12-20T17:13:34.814-08:00All the areas listed have good earning potential (...All the areas listed have good earning potential (in HR you have to be more careful to move up to the high salary). You will have gained rather than lost anything going into any one of the above areas because they are not as oversaturated as law. They all have earnings potential that is on a par with law if you do well. The failed JD is a gain, not a loss, in the above areas if you can get in.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-17032357706930840752012-12-20T16:39:51.780-08:002012-12-20T16:39:51.780-08:00Also look at real estate investment firms, hedge f...Also look at real estate investment firms, hedge funds, private equity firms, acccounting firms (the large and mid-sized firms do tax and consulting where a JD is useful) and if you are good at math, look at taking the actuarial exams to become an actuary (law is very useful for actuaries). Needless to say, it is very hard to get a job, but as the eoonomy improves, hopefully the unemployed and underemployed JDs that reside in areas where the types of jobs listed are available will be absorbed into good careers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-34962109988690614732012-12-20T16:18:45.321-08:002012-12-20T16:18:45.321-08:00The person posting that was not even close to bein...The person posting that was not even close to being a boomer. The originsl post was intended to point out the lack of job security AT EVERY AGE once one gets a job in law. True at any experience level. True by the numbers. True for all lawyers and not only with respect to new grads, so people who have jobs mistakenly think they are safe. There is no safety in law. Law has a terrible lack of job security at any age.<br /><br />There are internships and starting jobs advertised in various areas where a JD is useful. Try human resources, human resources consulting, compliance, banks, insurance companies. They have some jobs. Hard to believe a JD will screw you for those jobs. Maybe you will not get a premium salary for those jobs, but the JD should not be a liability. If someone says it is and they do not understand - not a very good employer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-39265277253591476102012-12-20T15:39:06.317-08:002012-12-20T15:39:06.317-08:00Plenty of health care professions allow people to ...Plenty of health care professions allow people to work long term. Teaching with shorter hours and longer vacations is usually tenured. Harder today, but still more job security than in law and less cost if you can survive the first few years. Opening your own business is something you might want to think about even if you have to slave away at low wages in someone else's business to learn the business. Accounting allows you to pick up your own repeat client base of individuals and businesses that need tax preparation and the world be damned. Of course you need to start out working for another accountant. There are any number of areas people should consider before thinking about law. <br /><br />The high salaries in law are misleading. They go mostly to only a few people and then for only a few years. Taking out the top 250 law firms, the salary figures in law are probably pretty low over all.<br /><br />From an economic and career standpoint, it is not clear that law compares favorably to other lines of work.<br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-41605243499324703392012-12-20T14:38:52.809-08:002012-12-20T14:38:52.809-08:00Fair enough, but unfortunately that is true in mos...Fair enough, but unfortunately that is true in most professions these days. All the more reason for young people not to leverage their futures on a JD. Or almost any other degree, for that matter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-13780816332204755232012-12-20T14:34:50.984-08:002012-12-20T14:34:50.984-08:00The attrition factor from law is a problem no matt...The attrition factor from law is a problem no matter what age you are. <br /><br />The point about very few people being left a few years from retirement was to make the point that this is a risk that 0Ls all face. It gets worse every year from graduation and will get worse over time because the law school classes are still more than twice what the market can absorb. It is the same point that DJM made about washing out after 5, 10 or 20 years. <br /><br />No one realistically expects to wash out. Tons of lawyers do wash out. Being double Harvard or double Yale gets you a job for some period but in no way protects you from washing out.<br /><br />If you are a 0L and are really prepared to take that risk of washing out, go ahead and enroll. But please understand that is what is likely to happen to you.<br /><br />I think people assume that once they get a job they are golden. Who would know unless people who are in the profession warn those 0Ls?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-64865486506445563082012-12-20T14:34:04.228-08:002012-12-20T14:34:04.228-08:00"When you're 50 and have done ONE THING y..."When you're 50 and have done ONE THING your whole career, and no one will now hire you to do that thing, and likely no one really wants to hire a 50 year old to do ANYTHING, let's be honest, that's a really different, worse situation than someone who is 25 and has done nothing at all, who now has a useless degree."<br /><br />No, it's not. The 25 yo with the useless degree is also likely to be saddled with non-dischargeable 6-figure debt and the scarlet letters JD which prevents him/her from obtaining a decent job in other fields. If a 50-yo still has unmanageable debt, then it's on him/her. <br /><br />And why are you more entitled to do the ONE THING you desire to earn a living than the 25 yo?<br /><br />Your posts reek of boomer entitlement, which is one of the root causes of the law school scam in the first place. Not that pointing it out will keep you from harping here incessantly... Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-33715333315996829612012-12-20T14:17:04.888-08:002012-12-20T14:17:04.888-08:00In Britain Inns of Court only trained barristers -...In Britain Inns of Court only trained barristers - sort of, but had an apprenticeship system, solicitors were apprenticed with an examination system on top<br /><br />MacKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-68871945573593182592012-12-20T14:00:38.995-08:002012-12-20T14:00:38.995-08:00Yeah, to the "0Ls aren't sympathetic to u...Yeah, to the "0Ls aren't sympathetic to unemployed baby boomers" person, I don't know what to tell you. Why should people who have spent their entire lives struggling to maintain employment in a profession, who get thrown out on their keisters 10 years shy of retirement, care about some bright eyed kid who "really really wants to be a lawyer"? Why is that person's story more compelling? That person could do literally anything with his/her life. When you're 50 and have done ONE THING your whole career, and no one will now hire you to do that thing, and likely no one really wants to hire a 50 year old to do ANYTHING, let's be honest, that's a really different, worse situation than someone who is 25 and has done nothing at all, who now has a useless degree. Yes, that is sad, but you can come back from that. And I'm not even close to being a boomer. I've only been working for 10 years since LS. But come on, guys. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-38295017894483459492012-12-20T13:02:00.932-08:002012-12-20T13:02:00.932-08:00You are right that if the supply and demand were b...You are right that if the supply and demand were balanced, the weeding out on account of age would not occur in the legal profession. <br /><br />The problem is that the supply and demand of lawyers are not balanced. They will not be balanced for a long time if ever. Therefore the weeding out on account of age will continue in the legal profession for the forseeable future. <br /><br />Prospective law students need to know that a job at graduation will provide maybe a 70% chance of having a job 10 years later and probably a 30% chance of working 10 years after that. They need to know that once they hit a few years out of law school, even with the best record, it is very hard to get hired and very easy to get fired. <br /><br />We are where we are, and that is in a state of huge lawyer oversupply. So everyone who goes to law school now and is lucky enough to get a first job will go through a weeding process. 0Ls need to understand it - you probably only work for a few years as a lawyer, and in any event a limited number of years for most people. After that you are not marketable and you likely do have a job.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-10514525672443938622012-12-20T12:09:20.783-08:002012-12-20T12:09:20.783-08:0011:23: Yes, I got the "point" and find t...11:23: Yes, I got the "point" and find the post as well as your comment unconvincing. A weeding out process certainly exists, but it is likely a side effect of the overproliferation of law schools. This overproliferation is the result of abundant easy loan money, i.e. it is a "bubble" that occurred irrespective of any conscious effort to regulate entry to the profession (albeit imperfectly) by contructing a "tournament guild."<br /><br />If the number of seats at law schools corresponded with the number of jobs available, most JDs (even you) would find jobs in law after they graduated.<br /><br />Law schools are inadvertent gatekeepers to the profession, rather than by design as the post implies. In truth, law schools have been largely oblivious to their students' outcomes (until recently). They are merely profit centers (until recently).<br /><br />Another red herring DJM post, offering more hypothetical "reforms" on the part of an incorrigible privileged class that has proven utterly incapable of reforming itself. Rambeaunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-27102929378498282992012-12-20T11:23:13.424-08:002012-12-20T11:23:13.424-08:0011:12 This is different from too many law schools...11:12 This is different from too many law schools. There is also a big weeding process in the legal profession that pushes out more lawyers each year from graduation. The weeding process leaves lawyers very much unemployed. You did not get the point did you?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-89418516006583396322012-12-20T11:12:50.220-08:002012-12-20T11:12:50.220-08:00This post can be summarized thus:
There are too...This post can be summarized thus: <br /><br />There are too many law schools.<br /><br />The rest of it reads suspiciously like a law review article...<br /><br />:)Rambeaunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-43890081549827386922012-12-20T10:40:37.342-08:002012-12-20T10:40:37.342-08:00@ 8:31 AM--- Well stated.
If a new JD is just una...@ 8:31 AM--- Well stated.<br /><br />If a new JD is just unable to find a paying job in the legal field within a year or so of graduating, they would do themselves a favor by just moving on and finding another type of job. Some things just aren't meant to be and the sooner one accepts it, the more quickly one can move on.<br /><br />It's true that having a non legal gap on one's resume may be the kiss of death. It is what it is. BamBamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-30000967402174660982012-12-20T10:39:16.204-08:002012-12-20T10:39:16.204-08:00Very shortsighted. What are you supposed to do if...Very shortsighted. What are you supposed to do if you have been practicing for 5 years, are laid off and can only find occasional doc review, which is of itself competitve? <br /><br />The problem is that the numbers of people dropping out from law each year after law school graduation are not out there. <br /><br />A giant portion of the scam occurs with first or second jobs. Do you really want to use your ivy or 3.6 honors college degree to do doc review for the rest of your life if and when you can get it, at $30 an hour? with no benefits? <br /><br />The numbers we have: 1.4 million law grads of working age, 500,000 real legal jobs and 25,000 first year jobs. <br /><br />Does this mean everyone who starts with a legal job gets 20 years of work and no one works after 20 years? Clearly no, because there are some older people in the profession.<br /><br />Do the math and see how good your odds might be for having more than a few years of work as a lawyer for your three years of leaving the labor force and incurring lifelong debt that will prevent you from getting credit for a house, a car or anything else if you do not hit the law jackpot.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-46808094622679810622012-12-20T10:37:06.916-08:002012-12-20T10:37:06.916-08:00"BONUS: (The redistributive impulse) Legal ed..."BONUS: (The redistributive impulse) Legal education must be extremely expensive because the fatcat rich students paying full price can subsidise the poor students."<br /><br />I find it hard to believe that the elites of the legal profession are so liberal, when it comes to money (and power).Barry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.com