tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post74226894987435399..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: Yet more law school numbersLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-50336698519651603292012-03-15T19:03:41.247-07:002012-03-15T19:03:41.247-07:00I think Forbes was just reporting what was in Pays...I think Forbes was just reporting what was in Payscale.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-1398505259684700842012-03-15T16:46:07.792-07:002012-03-15T16:46:07.792-07:00Why should the top 250 law firms be disclosing the...Why should the top 250 law firms be disclosing their own hiring? Why is there any obligation?<br /><br />Because a lot of people are going $150,000 into debt and spending 3 years of their lives in law school to get those jobs. Because students who go $150,000 into debt need high paying jobs to pay back their debt. Because the numbers of high paying legal jobs that are not fed from the big firms is in the minority. <br />Because elite law schools are promising a median salary in the private sector of $160,000 and a high percentage of the legal jobs that pay at least that much in the USA are in the top 250 firms.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-67470308537825862302012-03-15T14:17:24.345-07:002012-03-15T14:17:24.345-07:00Wow, Forbes are a bunch of fucking retards. In oth...Wow, Forbes are a bunch of fucking retards. In other news, they reported that Microsoft's stock has an average annual growth rate of 50%, based on a small sample taken in the late 1990s. Fucking imbeciles.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-62635303679181673662012-03-15T13:22:38.572-07:002012-03-15T13:22:38.572-07:00MacK: I was there and the AmLaw hypothesis is abso...MacK: I was there and the AmLaw hypothesis is absolutely right. Also, those PPP figures in AmLaw bear about the same relationship to reality as law school employment data in USN.<br /><br />RPLAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-66452174402905423102012-03-15T13:15:16.366-07:002012-03-15T13:15:16.366-07:00@ 12:46
So, if Payscale is saying that they found...@ 12:46<br /><br />So, if Payscale is saying that they found 30,000 grads, and almost a third of them have graduated in the last 5 years, what is happening to all the other grads?ThreadJockeynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-32199635267281511642012-03-15T13:01:56.134-07:002012-03-15T13:01:56.134-07:00@12:49
Why should the top 250 law firms be disclo...@12:49<br /><br />Why should the top 250 law firms be disclosing their own hiring? Why is there any obligation.<br /><br />20-30 years ago no firm would have done anything as vulgar as disclosing profits per partner or revenues - in part because it would piss off the clients to see what their lawyers were making. <br /><br />I actually think all of the "dick-measuring" that took off when AmLaw started publishing educated guesses of the numbers was ultimately very bad for the profession.<br /><br />MacKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-85860023458235730922012-03-15T12:58:53.254-07:002012-03-15T12:58:53.254-07:00Oh man I should learn to edit my comments: "h...Oh man I should learn to edit my comments: "haven't" not "hasn't"shaggyredhairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10799607457377167889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-32675430648668402312012-03-15T12:55:56.886-07:002012-03-15T12:55:56.886-07:00@12:26
It's good that you have something lined...@12:26<br />It's good that you have something lined up for the summer. Another thing you can check up on is whether or not there are any hiring/pay freezes either current or in the immediate future of the areas where you want to work.<br />I know several people who wanted to be PDs in our area (PA) and had good grades; it's just that there's apparently several hiring freezes in the area so they hasn't been able to find work. <br />In terms of law school however, the environments not going to change over the next two years; ten percent of your class is going to get smugger and smugger and 90% are going to go nuts with fear.shaggyredhairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10799607457377167889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-68664574603542636192012-03-15T12:49:43.559-07:002012-03-15T12:49:43.559-07:00Hard to tell if Columbia or NYU are being truthful...Hard to tell if Columbia or NYU are being truthful. There are a number of NY firms who call their entry level lawyers law clerks even though they are associates. It is likely that the 2010 figures for Columbia and NYU included deferred students, and of course these students should have been listed under a separate category so as not to mislead, Still does not answer how many of the Columbia grads had law school funded jobs or how many ended up in lower paying jobs when they wanted high paying jobs.<br /><br />The points being made in the comments about how lawyers fare 5, 10, 15 years out and so forth are very important, given that the Big Law jobs only last a few years. If people are maintaining close to their Big Law earnings after leaving, great. If they are leaving without jobs, terrible.<br /><br />The problem is that Big Law is a business model that does not work well in a tight market for lawyers. There is a conflict of interest between the law schools, that make their living on "up or out" and the more experienced grads of those law schools who in some cases are being put out on the street to make room for new law school grads.<br /><br />The top 250 law firms should be disclosing placement statistics, just like the law schools, but theirs should be for a couple of months after the lawyer leaves. If people are moving to good jobs, at least the system is working for the small percentage of grads that can get into Big Law. If not, the top law schools are selling 0L's a bill of goods- a high salary for a few years that will not last long enough to even pay off their law school debt. We need more information, particularly from those 250 "up or out" NLJ law firms.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-68701407324889187082012-03-15T12:49:40.908-07:002012-03-15T12:49:40.908-07:00Thanks 9:51, checked out the data, and that sounds...Thanks 9:51, checked out the data, and that sounds about right. Can't assume those who didn't report salary would disrupt the outcome very much. And that is for a supposedly "better" school. Maybe we should attach grades to each law school when given the information on their graduate's outcomes versus price. With a curve, maybe 40% will end up being an A!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-23540964112489716642012-03-15T12:47:48.252-07:002012-03-15T12:47:48.252-07:00@12:26
I doubt everyone at Duke is getting good...@12:26 <br /><br />I doubt everyone at Duke is getting good jobs - and if they do I suspect that they have a hard time 2-5 years out. Nonetheless my impression is that Duke does well regionally - in the South, but is less successful in DC, New York and California and does not have much of an international profile. Within the South (and again this is my impression) the rankings are sort of Harvard, UVa and Duke as the top 3 schools - and other schools, whatever USNWR says are ranked lower.<br /><br />MacKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-25493337604071618322012-03-15T12:46:54.522-07:002012-03-15T12:46:54.522-07:00@12:37 regarding the Forbes article:
THAT IS EXAC...@12:37 regarding the Forbes article:<br /><br />THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I MEAN....THE DATA IS NOT RELIABLE...it is based upon Payscale's analysis of self reported data. There is always a bias for the high earners to report while the low or zero earners do not report. <br />"Payscale combed through the profiles of its 30 million unique users who supply compensation information on its website to find which law school grads make the most. They looked at starting salaries of graduates from 98 popular law schools and found roughly 30,000 of them in their database who had reported salary information, including 8,900 working in the private sector with less than five years of experience (the study excluded those working in the public sector)."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-71169434228064059202012-03-15T12:37:01.147-07:002012-03-15T12:37:01.147-07:00In the media:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquely...In the media:<br />http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2012/03/13/the-law-schools-whose-grads-earn-the-most/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-90259330115616078452012-03-15T12:36:53.045-07:002012-03-15T12:36:53.045-07:00Given the availability of online data - I wonder w...Given the availability of online data - I wonder why someone does not try to do some sort of more objective rankings. It would not be difficult anymore to at objective data to get a sense of how law school graduates do.<br /><br />Start with a cumulative alumni count over 40 years per school. Then do a count of lawyers from each school that are still members of a bar - which tells you in principle how many are practicing - which I would regard as a key criterion. Then use say PACER to take a time sample of cases tried over the last say 10 years and do a school by school headcount of lawyers listed on the winning side (this would tend to leave out the settlements though.) Maybe look for a similar way to sample names on business transaction, probate filings, etc. Then take the published list of disciplined and disbarred attorneys. Look then for books and publications in non-law-school legal journals (the ones we actually read.)<br /><br />It strikes me as very feasible to come up with a more objective way of looking at how good a job law schools are doing.<br /><br />MacKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-25719079098411585712012-03-15T12:26:00.118-07:002012-03-15T12:26:00.118-07:008:05 here - thanks for the encouragement about PD ...8:05 here - thanks for the encouragement about PD work. I have an internship for the summer at a federal public defender's office, but haven't tried to get anything permanent yet because I'm hoping to clerk for a year or two when I get out. I also am very interested in academia, but NOT legal academia. My dream job would be to teach law-related and poli sci classes to undergrads. I think it's hugely problematic that in order to understand the legal system in this country you have to shell out over a hundred grand and get 3 more years of school. Seems like a great way to accumulate power in the hands of a few.<br /><br />It's interesting - I brought up this blog with a friend today and she was adamant that everyone at Duke gets good jobs and that I am just making myself paranoid for no good reason. Maybe she is right, but if she is it's only because I'm near the top of my class. I hope Duke and all the rest of the T14 get added to the lawsuit - they claimed 100% employment in the middle of the recession.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-74240653937860214512012-03-15T12:24:29.183-07:002012-03-15T12:24:29.183-07:0011:29: Maybe, though I could point out that his ta...11:29: Maybe, though I could point out that his tardiness in updating his rankings might be curiously associated with the way in which Chicago's older stats are often a little more complimentary to Chicago than more recent data. So, for instance, when he looks at academic placements (his most recent update), he decides to go all the way back to 1995--a rather strange move given the sizable changes in academic hiring that have taken place in the last 15 years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-72177704568465098722012-03-15T12:15:07.543-07:002012-03-15T12:15:07.543-07:0012:14 correction *these* numbers (can't go bac...12:14 correction *these* numbers (can't go back and edit)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-55261692057338501022012-03-15T12:14:04.872-07:002012-03-15T12:14:04.872-07:00"This does however get to a bigger issue, tha..."This does however get to a bigger issue, that schools don't collect data from students 5, 10, 20 years out. "<br /><br />If schools revealed this numbers law school enrollment would drop overnight. Particularly if they included the info on the salaries people make over those years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-84823346656572039632012-03-15T12:05:28.346-07:002012-03-15T12:05:28.346-07:00@10:26 MacK is absolutely correct
"The reaso...@10:26 MacK is absolutely correct<br /><br />"The reason I think it is important is that very few 0Ls realize that legal practice is a struggle. First you struggle to get a decent junior associate job. Then you struggle to keep that for more than a few years. You struggle to lateral maybe. Then you finally get to being a partner or a GC – and it is still precarious. My accountant tells me what seems to me to be a lot of money last year – but my income is totally precarious – I could make several hundred thousand this year or maybe nothing – we are in the battle for clients, and then waiting months to get paid – and then you have sleepless nights over tax returns etc. <br /><br />Very few lawyers make more than $160k and most big firm associates are probably on about the largest paycheck of their lives – and will after 2-3 years never reach that level of income in real terms again. Few will make partner – and if they do, it may well be in a smaller firm, or one they build themselves."<br /><br />It has been a struggle for me and everyone I know for nearly 20 years to stay employed and busy, and my colleagues were the supposed winners of the BigLaw lottery at graduation. I keep saying it...there are no reliable employment data that demonstrate what happens to law graduates long term. I know anecdoatally that it isn't pretty. The selection bias for those who at least temporarily have high incomes to report those incomes while those with little or no income do not report lingers long after the first job employment statistics are accumulated. Therefore, any alleged salary surveys that you see are highly suspect and do not even resemble reality.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-41140476224039213222012-03-15T12:03:17.886-07:002012-03-15T12:03:17.886-07:00@ 11:58, that is why it makes sense to have school...@ 11:58, that is why it makes sense to have schools with professors who do not want to do that. Others that want to keep on, can keep on. Students who feel as you do, can go to schools where the professors do not do that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-15170836481478164812012-03-15T11:58:02.504-07:002012-03-15T11:58:02.504-07:00Stop forcing students to subsidize and mortgage th...Stop forcing students to subsidize and mortgage their futures to create b.s. law review articles. Professors need to teach more and write less. We could cut the number of law review articles in half and nobody would care or notice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-68387617891761760722012-03-15T11:52:01.155-07:002012-03-15T11:52:01.155-07:00Nixon didn't invite anyone to come to look at ...Nixon didn't invite anyone to come to look at his information. The court ordered him to give up the tapes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-26745443990284050482012-03-15T11:40:18.182-07:002012-03-15T11:40:18.182-07:00@10:58 a.m.:
Campos: "Everybody in the top ...@10:58 a.m.:<br /><br />Campos: "Everybody in the top 10 except for Columbia and NYU has graduates place into NLJ 250 firms within 80% of the rate that NLJ says that they do."<br /><br />NYU: "Yeah, but these NLJ firms don't report in the NLJ survey, and besides, some of our students do all these special invisible-to-NLJ things for loads of money or professional prestige that apparently none of the other top 10 schools do in any significant number. Of course, we won't go so far as to point to any specific firm or firms, or even list some examples where our graduates are hired but listed as something other than partner-track associates, but Campos is super wrong, and yeah."<br /><br />That doesn't sound like "pwnage." That sounds like the last Nixon aide to resign before the indictments were handed out.Morse Code for Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533833808776688455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-42309380457138645882012-03-15T11:30:02.968-07:002012-03-15T11:30:02.968-07:00Fuck you troll at 10:58.Fuck you troll at 10:58.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-21840865873577156782012-03-15T11:29:54.925-07:002012-03-15T11:29:54.925-07:00@9:00 AM: In fairness to Leiter, he's been con...@9:00 AM: In fairness to Leiter, he's been considerably less prestige-obsessed since he left Texas (which he perennially considered the most underrated school in the history of academia) for Chicago. Note how out-of-date his rankings have become in recent years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com