tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post5396317860020683284..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: Demoralization costsLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger148125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-45565067991577425022012-06-16T06:22:13.437-07:002012-06-16T06:22:13.437-07:00Regarding special snowflake syndrome:
When I grad...Regarding special snowflake syndrome:<br /><br />When I graduated high school, no one had a perfect 4.0 in my class. It happened a class or two ahead of mine, but we had one valedictorian who had all A's and one B, and two salutatorians with all A's and two B's. <br /><br />One of my siblings started the year after I graduated. In his class, a mere four years later, there were EIGHT valedictorians, all with "perfect" 4.0s. There were two more salutatorians that had a single B. <br /><br />Now, one of two things happened: <br /><br />1. Either his class was a lot more intelligent/hard working/high achieving than mine, or <br /><br />2. Rampant grade inflation<br /><br />I know my friends. I know his friends. With the benefit of hindsight and about a decade of data to see what they've accomplished since they "grew up" I can see no real discernable difference in outcomes between my own class and his "super class" of four years later. If anything, the earlier class is ahead, but some discrepancies might be explained by four extra years of experience, etc. <br /><br />As another anecdote, another relative worked in higher education, dealing with student groups like student government councils and the like. This relative was surprised by two things:<br /><br />1. The number of people who would join such groups, come to one meeting and drop out. When asked, other students said it was becoming common for individuals to join groups and play a minimal role or not even show up, simply for the "credential" of putting the club on their resume.<br /><br />2. The genunine rat-race prior to and the hurt feelings afterwards of the awards ceremony. Nearly every kid expected to be a legitimate candidate for "leader of the year" or equivalent recognition. If they didn't win, it wasn't silent disappointment, but open complaining and/or pity party. <br /><br />Very, very disturbing trends.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-60179213279448262382012-06-16T06:12:18.905-07:002012-06-16T06:12:18.905-07:00More special snowflake syndrome.
I imagine that ...More special snowflake syndrome. <br /><br />I imagine that if the guy had biglaw offers that he had deferred in order to take a year or two in a state court clerkship, he'd have mentioned that, as they would've bolstered his argument. <br /><br />The fact that he didn't makes me think that he's trying desperately to reassure himself that things will be ok. After all, he's gotten a "prestigious" clerkship after a "highly competitive" process, or, in other words, rinse, repeat what he's been doing since undergrad and law school. It's always worked out, so he's sure it always will. <br /><br />Maybe he's right. Maybe he's not. He's the one with all the skin in the game, though, so it's natural that he might seek reassurance. <br /><br />I say, best of luck. The clerkship will be an invaluable experience, and in and of itself, is not a mistake. Whether the earlier decision to attend law school at all was a mistake in this particular instance has yet to be revealed. <br /><br />But we know going forward that this one instance doesn't really matter in the long term right? I mean, if we see one person hit the jackpot in the casino, does that mean all the other patrons should not leave until they either 1. win a jackpot themselves or 2. go broke trying? <br /><br />Of course not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-41653274365139549882012-06-15T20:32:36.102-07:002012-06-15T20:32:36.102-07:00I know that state trial court clerkships are low-p...I know that state trial court clerkships are low-prestige jobs, but I got a dreamy government job as a result of clerking for a state judge, and so did every single person I clerked with. I learned much more about practicing law and about dealing with juries during my clerkship than I did in law school.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-52323149470330503222012-06-15T06:13:43.979-07:002012-06-15T06:13:43.979-07:00@5:25 a.m.:
Okay, that's the T14. Assuming t...@5:25 a.m.:<br /><br />Okay, that's the T14. Assuming that you're right and he's wrong, where does that leave that the remaining tens of thousands of students who attend ABA-accredited law schools that aren't among the T14?<br /><br />Nobody disputes that there are at least some successes at every law school. After all, the president of the Pittsburgh Steelers went to Duquesne Law School, and it's in the umpteenth tier or something.* The questions to be asked are how badly the failures will suffer for their lack of success, and how many of them one can expect to find in any given class.<br /><br />*Results not typical. Being the multimillionaire grandson of the team's founder considered helpful. See your pre-law counselor for details.Morse Code for Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533833808776688455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-39401305114457652932012-06-15T05:25:47.815-07:002012-06-15T05:25:47.815-07:00Obviously this is just anecdotal, but I've kno...Obviously this is just anecdotal, but I've known about eight people who had state supreme court clerkships, and they all ended up with decent big-firm jobs. They had to apply to numerous firms and hustle, but they didn't have any lag time between the clerkship and the job. So, as far as I can tell, those really do open doors.<br /><br />Personally, I think Campos is incorrect about exactly how bad the legal market is. My disagreement is basically a matter of line drawing: I think that with respect to T14 schools (and possibly a few other schools in the top 50), if one really wants to be a lawyer and has good reason for that belief (work as a paralegal, etc.), then that investment is still worth it. As I understand it, Campos is skeptical about any school other than Yale, Stanford, and Harvard. I've reviewed the data for several of the other T14 schools, and I don't think it supports Campos' negative take on the rest of the T14.* Of course, he's right that there is a crisis in the legal education system, but these details are important to those applicants with these choices.<br /><br />*Among other things, he often makes very negative assumptions when data is unclear because he assumes that law schools accurately report all positive data because it's in their interest; I don't think that follows--they may not have the data or, equally likely, the data is mixed and they'd rather not report it/discover it. Moreover, as their reporting has become more thorough, it shows that their results are pretty good (with the understanding that they can't assure every single student success--but that's to be expected; a law school is not necessarily a failure if its bottom 10-15% have trouble finding legal work).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-20428798836778574802012-06-14T23:32:50.614-07:002012-06-14T23:32:50.614-07:00Things that can't go on forever don't.Things that can't go on forever don't.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-84360809791457511822012-06-14T20:53:16.806-07:002012-06-14T20:53:16.806-07:00I am a lawyer and ex law professor from a T1 schoo...I am a lawyer and ex law professor from a T1 school. I was trained in economics and have a reasonably good grasp of the issues. Three of my children are lawyers who graduated in the late '90s. To be blunt, I do not see an end to the crisis in the near term. Indeed all indications are that things will get worse in the next few years. Anybody who really wants to be a lawyer ought to defer for a year or two to gain some experience and perspective. For those who are going because they don't know what else to you are playing with fire that will burn you. Don't expect sympathy from anyone. Professor Campos is not cruel. The truth is cruel and those of us on the inside of the scam have been on notice for years but have conveniently closed our eyes to the pain inflicted by our actions. We will pay a price for our willing ignorance but none so dear as the price paid by many who have posted here.<br /><br />The Piss AntAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-39827998701009643322012-06-14T20:19:28.416-07:002012-06-14T20:19:28.416-07:00The thing that I love most about Campos's writ...The thing that I love most about Campos's writing is that he reminds me so much of my old man. No matter how exasperated he is with some bad decision that I might have made, his lecture always leaves me feeling like he still wants the best for me. <br /><br />Thus, given the extent to which some of these comments are remarkably scathing and personal in nature, I am continually impressed by his professional restraint and constant focus on the real problem at hand: a system that is ruining an enormous amount of lives.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-82625831305389517312012-06-14T20:03:18.115-07:002012-06-14T20:03:18.115-07:00Well articulated interview. I hope to see more.Well articulated interview. I hope to see more.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-36922159206967742682012-06-14T19:32:14.452-07:002012-06-14T19:32:14.452-07:00Thanks to Morse Code and 7:10 for articulating poi...Thanks to Morse Code and 7:10 for articulating points I should have made more clearly in the OP. I do think in one sense I was too harsh (here at least) with this graduate, who after all has been victimized by phony employment stats and an insane price structure, and is understandably looking for some assurance that things are not as bad as they appear to be (even though they are).<br /><br />But in the end whether things work out for him personally or not is irrelevant to the structural crisis that has left a law graduate who is in the 90th to 95th percentile of his cohort in terms of law school success in such a tenuous position.LawProfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-52131896047827520172012-06-14T19:28:51.921-07:002012-06-14T19:28:51.921-07:00@ 7:10
Are you a law professor? Why are you so q...@ 7:10<br /><br />Are you a law professor? Why are you so quick to defend him and not the student. <br /><br />I meant impotent. I meant that the law student should've known he was impotent, especially when the victims of the law school scam blame the other victims.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-85678059826301373762012-06-14T19:10:31.443-07:002012-06-14T19:10:31.443-07:00@5:35pm
You clearly have severe reading comprehen...@5:35pm<br /><br />You clearly have severe reading comprehension problems. LawProf did not criticize the emailer because he didn't know about the law school scam in time. He is criticizing him for telling LawProf that he is painting a picture that, in his words:<br /><br />"I'm wondering if going overboard in the other direction has a perverse effect of insulting and demoralizing some people unnecessarily"<br /><br />LawProf is right on in his comments about this emailer. The situation for many LS grads is BAD. Is it BAD for this particular person? Well only time will tell.<br /><br />But my own response to that recent grad is two-fold:<br /><br />1. You cannot say yet at this point that you yourself are one of the "winners". Your intermediate state court clerkship may not lead to anything else (or at least won't for many people in similar situations).<br /><br />2. Even if you turn out okay (and I have no reason to wish ill at all), understand that you are one of the few lucky ones lying atop a mountain of failures. So NO, LawProf and other scambloggers aren't being "unnecessarily demoralizing". Rather than are speaking truth that MOST law grads are ALREADY experiencing!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-90027728353962933032012-06-14T19:03:00.338-07:002012-06-14T19:03:00.338-07:00@5:49
I meant impotent, actually. My mistake. I...@5:49<br /><br />I meant impotent, actually. My mistake. I guess I was just thinking, that maybe this guy is smart and has something to add to society, and that we may need it. <br /><br />Sorry. I'm sorry. Fuck that guy. He deserves his lot. He should've distrusted every indicator that he should be a lawyer from every waking moment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-13385745356008812172012-06-14T18:43:34.919-07:002012-06-14T18:43:34.919-07:00@1:51 p.m.:
This blog is titled Inside the Law Sc...@1:51 p.m.:<br /><br />This blog is titled Inside the Law School Scam. If you wanted Chicken Soup for the Past and Future Underemployed Attorney, you're in the wrong place, and frankly I wonder why anybody thinks that Campos needs to provide some kind of moral re-armament center for people who are anxious about their futures in the law whether they just graduated or have struggled for some years thereafter. If your decision to become an attorney was a good one in your case, what does it matter what I think? If it was a bad one, does any amount of sunshine blown up your ass really make a difference to you?<br /><br />What's ridiculous is that we just can't say, "What are you talking about? He got a real job in the law, and that's a good outcome." He can't even say that with conviction, for Christ's sake, or else he wouldn't have written! So much energy at the beginning of the scam blogs was spent whistling past the graveyard of other people's careers, saying things like, "Well, you should have known better, attending Cooley at sticker. You probably shouldn't even be an attorney." Cruel laughs for people desperate to think well of their own decision to attend anything other than the very best law school on a full ride scholarship. And gradually the waterline has crept up from the Cooleys and Touros through the second tier and over my alma mater at the bottom of the first tier, and now lapping at the feet of the T6.<br /><br />Even he's subject to that, even though he seems nice enough. You know, it's really just the trial court clerks that are having the problem, it won't be me, I beat out so many people to get here and I'm working with the best of the best, et cetera. There's something deeply fucking wrong with a system that would make somebody question themselves for being one of the best law graduates in the country, working in a state appellate court.<br /><br />Also, OMG the Tone people: Fuck your precious concerns for the public being enlightened in just the right way. Information is transmitted in every sort of tone, and the drop in applications you've seen for the LSAT has some roots in the anger and despair you see at all of those declasse scam blogs you loathe (but apparently read nonetheless).Morse Code for Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533833808776688455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-23826934655324145352012-06-14T18:29:30.082-07:002012-06-14T18:29:30.082-07:00lol state court clerkshiplol state court clerkshipAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-85769229105810013622012-06-14T18:01:35.109-07:002012-06-14T18:01:35.109-07:00@5:49--Could be either one...@5:49--Could be either one...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-32125581732730370722012-06-14T17:50:27.467-07:002012-06-14T17:50:27.467-07:00Prof. Campos:
Very good job in the interview. Fo...Prof. Campos:<br /><br />Very good job in the interview. For those who have yet to see it, he concisely identifies the key points to the current law school crisis, and does a good job at linking it - rightfully so - with the higher education tuition price-gouging. He also - and this is important since we are discussing television - made catch-phrase style statements that are required for a good television interview. Proof of that is evident by the Bloomberg host commenting, "You stole my thunder" after one such comment by Campos.<br /><br />One thing though, Professor Campos, to consider if you are in front of a wider audience such as on CNN, is that you should give a few more "catch-phrases" directed for Boomers. You mentioned briefly on families at the end, but keep in store a clever sentence for how Boomers should not send their kids into serfdom, or something like that.<br /><br />And regarding CNN and other media outlets, you may want to consider using any contacts arising out of the CBS piece - or whomever - to try and get onto 60 minutes. It is, after all, a perennial top 10 Nielson ratings. Then there is 20/20, the other nightly news channels, CNBC and Bloomberg (original) because of the financial aspect ($1 trillion total debt) to this. This is an election year, and student debt should be at, or near, the front of the line of things discussed.<br /><br />***And please, don't make the mistake - you didn't in this piece - that Cryn Johannsen made by talking about herself on CNN, instead of the issue.***Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-38594233537792167212012-06-14T17:49:01.150-07:002012-06-14T17:49:01.150-07:00^I think you mean omniscient.^I think you mean omniscient.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-9658738059027249192012-06-14T17:35:00.780-07:002012-06-14T17:35:00.780-07:00Law Prof,
This guy started law school before your...Law Prof,<br /><br />This guy started law school before your blog existed. This guy started law school before David Segal wrote about law school in the New York Times. <br /><br />So this guy is not omnipotent, and therefore deserves what he gets. <br /><br />You write this blog, but you also make your money teaching law. But there are no trials in the gates of Eden.<br /><br />I am giving you a much nicer reply then you deserve.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-68770775187452727062012-06-14T15:53:12.868-07:002012-06-14T15:53:12.868-07:00@ 3:37
I challenge you to make up a simple limeri...@ 3:37<br /><br />I challenge you to make up a simple limerick.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-90675611633153372602012-06-14T15:49:24.564-07:002012-06-14T15:49:24.564-07:00Five kids went to law school
in autumn's goth...Five kids went to law school <br />in autumn's gothic season.<br />Children bright, with much ambition<br />without the money for tuition.<br /><br />With no need to worry of tomorrow, <br />for student loans were there to borrow.<br /><br />In their case it was kind of fun<br />they signed an X<br />and with a HEX<br />the deed was done!<br /><br />But on that first and fateful day<br />and ere they stepped inside<br />all were seen to shrink and pause.<br /><br />A dreadful cloud<br />both swift and wide<br />cast a shadow on their way<br />and doubts upon their cause.<br /><br />The looked around and whispered: "Woe betide us all!"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-85906392793823246012012-06-14T15:46:33.324-07:002012-06-14T15:46:33.324-07:00Those who are more interested in the subject matte...Those who are more interested in the subject matter of this blog than in bad T. S. Eliot impressions and repetitive deranged insults directed at Mssrs. Campos and MacK might want to read this:<br /><br />http://lifeinc.today.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/14/12225250-law-degree-loses-luster-amid-weak-economy-globalization?lite<br /><br />It even contains an anecdote about the dubious value of a state court clerkship.Lois Turnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04940132718084602679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-45667184285618571732012-06-14T15:41:56.677-07:002012-06-14T15:41:56.677-07:00its astounding that this person thinks this blog i...its astounding that this person thinks this blog is more demorlizing and insulting than the paltry salary he/she will receive for being a clerk and the short term nature of the position. And the insult should be compounded by the fact that this person had to fight his ass off to get it. This alone seems to substantiate Campos's point with this blog.<br /><br />And as far as demoralizing and insulting, doesn't it add insult to injury for all of those unemployed people to look at the rosy employement stats reported year after year at greater than 85%? Wouldn't that demoraiize them into thinking they are one of the 15 out of 100 who couldn't get a job. And isn't this insulting when its not even true?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-56799065212476010042012-06-14T15:41:38.437-07:002012-06-14T15:41:38.437-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Lois Turnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04940132718084602679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-18486903845285220992012-06-14T15:37:30.438-07:002012-06-14T15:37:30.438-07:00Dear loser with no talent, please shut the hell fu...Dear loser with no talent, please shut the hell fuck up and stop posting your diarhea.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com