tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post396565485473225667..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: Hope and Change, Cook County Circuit Court EditionLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger164125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-72091811169244195322013-02-24T04:14:27.223-08:002013-02-24T04:14:27.223-08:00I visit day-to-day some web sites and information ...I visit day-to-day some web sites and information sites to read posts, however this website offers <br />feature based posts.<br /><br />My website :: <a href="http://scipy.org/AshleyG30" rel="nofollow">USA real estate agents directory</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-1192340802907659022012-11-14T23:48:10.558-08:002012-11-14T23:48:10.558-08:00This post gives the light in which we can observe ...This post gives the light in which we can observe the reality.This is very nice one and gives indepth information.Thanks for sharing this nice article.<a href="http://momdocmidwives.com/chandler-obstetrician-gynecologists" rel="nofollow">Midwife Chandler</a>mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06169812996432978423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-37523854532026531812012-09-15T01:03:15.073-07:002012-09-15T01:03:15.073-07:00The problem with the flashing neon light theory is...The problem with the flashing neon light theory is the very insidious nature of the fraud itself. But for the fraudulent misrepresentations by the law schools, a student may have heeded the warning.<br /><br />But the law school scam muddies the waters. On the one hand, a prospective law student may hear horror stories of people incurring hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt only to find there are no jobs. On the other hand, he reads the rosy assurances from the law schools that this is not the case. Who does the prospective law student believe?<br /><br />If he guesses wrong, he takes the risk (1) of being saddled with a debt he can never repay and wasting three years of his life, or (2) passing up on the opportunity to engage in a rewarding and satisfying profession which will guarantee him status and a comfortable living.<br /><br />Ultimately, a student can reasonably rely upon the represenations made by a law school in their glossy brochures. Moreover, in the case of state schools, isn't a student entitled to rely upon the representations made by a school run by his state?<br /><br />If the law schools would just come clean and level with prospective students, there would be much less confusion.<br /><br />High Plains LawyerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-17906822910252459192012-09-14T14:11:50.126-07:002012-09-14T14:11:50.126-07:00Have patience, 9:01, you're talking to a law p...Have patience, 9:01, you're talking to a law professor. Small matters like "question of law versus question of fact" are below them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-40550567867628582772012-09-14T09:01:54.752-07:002012-09-14T09:01:54.752-07:00It's a motion to dismiss. Maybe the standard i...It's a motion to dismiss. Maybe the standard is different in Cook County than where I practice, but whether it was reasonable to rely on the law school's data seems like a quintessential question of fact to me.erystylnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-60325829000001249662012-09-14T06:53:09.967-07:002012-09-14T06:53:09.967-07:00I don't think that anyone is saying that stude...I don't think that anyone is saying that students should bear zero responsibility. <br /><br />They are just saying that the issue is close enough that it should survive a 12(b)(6) motion and should be litigated.<br /><br />Why not let the jury apportion fault?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-21707243029465374872012-09-14T06:44:48.473-07:002012-09-14T06:44:48.473-07:00What a double standard. So let me get this straigh...What a double standard. So let me get this straight, I have won 11 trials in my life but I can be brought up before the ethics board for advertising the TRUTH? That I am undefeated in trials. That I am 11-0. Yet these cocksucking law school deans can lie with impunity about employment stats. Do as I say, not as I do. Fuck this ugly profession.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-87242207826122758162012-09-14T05:43:53.811-07:002012-09-14T05:43:53.811-07:00Get out. Leave the situation you're in if it m...Get out. Leave the situation you're in if it makes you miserable. There's always an escape route - not necessarily to an attorneys job, but just to something else. It's a big world and there's always something.Gilman Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06607416440240634159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-28788219907359575552012-09-14T04:25:10.327-07:002012-09-14T04:25:10.327-07:00I think there are a lot of reasons that judges ten...I think there are a lot of reasons that judges tend to rule against the law school cases - most of which have been illustrated by posts here:<br /><br />1. Groupthink "is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within groups of people. It is the mode of thinking that happens when the desire for harmony in a decision-making group overrides a realistic appraisal of alternatives. Group members try to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation of alternative ideas or viewpoint" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink<br /><br />Judges and law professors are very much in the same group - indeed judges are commonly former law professors and often expect to return to professorships (very successful practicing lawyers are unlikely to seek judgeships.) <br /><br />2. The recognition by judges that a ruling, pretty well any ruling hold law schools responsible for their fraudulent numbers "opens up an appalling vista" of consequences because pretty well every law school was doing it ... a decision holding say DePaul responsible would be very very big with big consequences.<br /><br />3. Projection - judges are projecting their knowledge of the state of the legal profession on applicants to law school. To put it another way - I have been generally aware for at least a decade that there are major problems with employment of law graduates - but then I have been in practice for twenty years (ouch) and ten years ago I was hiring law graduates and interviewing them, and pulling resumés out of my hair - you cannot compare the person I was in 2002 with the person I was in 1989 - the:<br /><br /><i>For the past decade, there have been huge warning signs around obtaining a legal education. Massive, flashing, neon, sparkly, skywritten signs saying "LAW SCHOOLS ARE LYING TO YOU!" Yes, only recently have specific stats from schools started to be disproven by real data and analysis, but for god's sake, it's not as if people didn't have extremely strong suspicions and circumstantial evidence to show that law schools fail to provide even a fraction of the employment opportunities they brag about.</i><br /><br />have been described by PoorGrad at 9:32 PM - and with respect to PoorGrad, the signs he/she lists are the sort of signs that would only really be apparent to 2Ls, practicing lawyers, judges and professors. What to 0Ls know about OCI attendance?<br /><br />Also with respect to Nando - compare the third-tier-reality website, with its images of toilets with the slick USNWR sight and nicely bound magazines available at your corner bookstore - which looks more credible? Think of yourself as a 22 year old - turd in toilet or nice book filled with statistics and polite text? <br /><br />The flashing neon signs were right, but they were not visible to most entrants - and like a sign over a strip club promising love, not very convincing.<br /> MacKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10442386017204584747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-36347782536622379922012-09-14T02:14:32.729-07:002012-09-14T02:14:32.729-07:00Hypothetical: Someone markets a very expensive cos...Hypothetical: Someone markets a very expensive cosmetic procedure that says it improves your appearance 95% of the time. The FDA approves it. Prominent labs also agree. A few fringe voices say it only works 35% of the time and are proved correct five years later. Would you say "buyer beware" to the people who paid for the procedure in the meantime?Gilman Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06607416440240634159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-37841589232307211052012-09-14T01:27:44.498-07:002012-09-14T01:27:44.498-07:00Joking aside, is there ANY law professor out there...Joking aside, is there ANY law professor out there willing to to go on record in support of the reasoning in (not the results of) any of these dismissals?<br /><br />Any?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-27828267192863116472012-09-14T01:13:12.377-07:002012-09-14T01:13:12.377-07:00Who cares? The results of this dismissal justify i...Who cares? The results of this dismissal justify its bullshit, unsound reasoning. OUR SCAM LIVES TO SEE ANOTHER DAY!!<br /><br />- Anonymous Law ProfessorAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-61072940615109592422012-09-14T00:56:51.928-07:002012-09-14T00:56:51.928-07:00Smart people can sound like douchebags. I often ex...Smart people can sound like douchebags. I often expect them to. Take that great philosopher, Brian Leiter, as an example.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-84690335075078992882012-09-14T00:51:59.089-07:002012-09-14T00:51:59.089-07:00Here is the link to the circuit court's grim 1...Here is the link to the circuit court's grim 11-page order dismissing the fraud claims against DePaul University School of Law (Phillips v. DePaul, 12 CH 3523) I did not see it in the OP or in any of the comments.<br /><br />http://www.scribd.com/doc/105758874/DePaul-Ruling-by-Neil-Cohen-Dismissing-Case#fullscreen<br /><br />From the order, here are some additional exasperating quotes. These quotes are more instructive than all the recruitment material in the world plus all the scamming "honor, community, and service" rhetoric they spit out at you and your parents during commencement ceremonies. <br /><br />As well, it is amusing that the court states that law schools provided, in return for tuition, not employment, but rather a legal education that "would prepare them to practice law." Law schools don't exactly prepare students to practice law either, so maybe they can be sued for that. <br /><br />*[in dismissing claim of common law fraud, element of proximate causation]: “Plaintiffs do not allege facts, as opposed to legal conclusions, connecting DePaul’s alleged fraud to their inability to obtain full-time legal employment sufficient to repay their loans.” (Slip Op. at 7) <br /><br />* [in dismissing claim of common law fraud, element of damages]: “Plaintiffs did not pay tuition to DePaul in return for future employment. Plaintiffs paid tuition to DePaul in return for a legal education which would prepare them to practice law. DePaul provided the service paid for by the Plaintiffs.”” (Slip. Op. at p.8)<br /><br />*[in dismissing claim of common law fraud/ fraudulent misrepresentation]: “While Plaintiffs argue that DePaul misrepresented their odds of obtaining employment as a lawyer with a DePaul law degree, Plaintiffs have failed to identify any statement made by DePaul which predicted Plaintiff’s odds of obtaining employment as a full-time lawyer, which suggested that the employment obtained by all recent graduates was full-time or well-paid, or which suggested that Plaintiff’s would obtain full-time employment as a lawyer or at a certain salary within nine months of graduation” (Slip Op. at p.4)<br /><br />* [in dismissing claim of common law fraud/ fradulent concealment]: “Plaintiffs have also failed to allege the existence of any special or confidential relationship with DePaul. As prospective students, Plaintiffs had no relationship with DePaul, must less a special relationship which would give rise to any duty. Nor have Plaintiffs alleged any facts. . . showing that a special relationship existed after they became DePaul students. To establish such a special relationship, Plaintiffs would have to allege facts showing that DePaul exercised an overwhelming influence on them. [internal citation omitted]. Plaintiffs allege nothing more than a contractual relationship between themselves and DePaul. Plaintiffs paid DePaul tuition and DePaul provided a legal education in return. This does not give rise to a special relationship.” (Slip Op. at p.5)<br /><br />* [in dismissing claim of negligent misrepresentation]: “DePaul is not in the business of providing information for the guidance of others in their business transactions. . . DePaul is in the business of educating students. The provision of the Employment Information was incidental to the educating of students.” (Slip Op. at p.10) <br /><br />* [in dismissing claim of negligent misrepresentation]: “...but that case [cited by the Plaintiffs] stands for nothing more than the proposition that real estate agents are in the business of supplying information for the guidance of others. It does not stand for the proposition that educational institutions are in the business of supplying information for the guidance of others and no such authority exists. (Slip Op. at p.11)<br /><br />dybbuk<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-75208063747740347862012-09-14T00:43:52.579-07:002012-09-14T00:43:52.579-07:00Don't listen to these anonymous assholes; most...Don't listen to these anonymous assholes; most of them sound like variations of the World Traveling Law Student.<br /><br />***<br /><br />I personally think this inability to find for the plaintiffs in these scamskool cases is Goddamned disgusting, but then, really you<br />asking the judges to stab their beloved system in the gut. I'd drive the blade into the flab and bring Lawpocalypse upon us, but these judges are company men, and they will stay loyal even if the ABA and the skools implode on their own.Strelnikovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12660962615198939441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-74857168203811660492012-09-14T00:08:06.442-07:002012-09-14T00:08:06.442-07:00@2:45 How "smart" are you, really, if yo...@2:45 How "smart" are you, really, if you can't keep yourself from sounding like an absolute douchebag? You get an A+ in Obnoxious Commentary!! It won't count towards your GPA, though. Sorry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-29847080144459908902012-09-13T23:33:42.600-07:002012-09-13T23:33:42.600-07:00OK. No poems.
But NPR wanted to hear them and ask...OK. No poems.<br /><br />But NPR wanted to hear them and asked that I read them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-42626995648506606562012-09-13T23:33:33.735-07:002012-09-13T23:33:33.735-07:00Yes.Yes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-50862409600763345172012-09-13T22:51:39.825-07:002012-09-13T22:51:39.825-07:00Didn't they get to discovery in the Golden Gat...Didn't they get to discovery in the Golden Gate case?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-92228926106770947412012-09-13T22:45:55.642-07:002012-09-13T22:45:55.642-07:00I certainly haven't forgotten about discovery....I certainly haven't forgotten about discovery. Initially I thought we'd hear about a bunch of slimy communications between law school insiders, concerning enticing students with fake stats in an attempt to "trap the little bastards." Similar to what was discovered in the Illinois admissions stats investigation, but regarding employment stats.<br /><br />But if certain posts in this thread are correct, all we're going to hear about are statements like: "well, I guess we'll keep lying about our employment stats, because everyone knows that's what we do and it's their own fault if they're stupid enough to believe us."<br /><br />And with that I'm sure the judge will find a way to throw the case out because law schools knew the stats were bullshit, and therefore everyone else should have known too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-32010265861084907612012-09-13T22:27:12.225-07:002012-09-13T22:27:12.225-07:001% is fine...if actually earned.1% is fine...if actually earned.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-88126958644684453182012-09-13T22:19:14.116-07:002012-09-13T22:19:14.116-07:00Good thing you teach "philosophy" and no...Good thing you teach "philosophy" and not torts. You really are a twisted, obsessive freak. <br /><br />As another poster mentioned above, "should have known" is a factual standard that should be determined by a trier of fact, not a trier of law. You and your SPs bullshit attempts to make it seem like everybody knew or should have known that the stats were bogus, does not change this simple reality.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-65476887221376547482012-09-13T22:10:32.575-07:002012-09-13T22:10:32.575-07:00Not only entice, but keep them in. How many law sc...Not only entice, but keep them in. How many law schools do you think were advising students to drop out after a bad 1L year, or a failed OCI, or negative changes in the legal market? OTOH how many do you think were using "you'll be fine!" tactics to get another semester's worth of tuition?<br /><br />Discovery in one of these cases would surely tell us. Unfortunately these judges are manipulating legal standards to prevent that from happening. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-87892663415600388512012-09-13T22:01:25.436-07:002012-09-13T22:01:25.436-07:00Open commenting policies mandated on law professor...Open commenting policies mandated on law professors' blogs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-53591478145813296322012-09-13T22:00:09.741-07:002012-09-13T22:00:09.741-07:00A point to what? 2:45's comment? You can find ...A point to what? 2:45's comment? You can find his or her point in the first two paragraphs of the comment. It's pretty fucking clear. <br /><br />Or are you referring to the comments by 2:52 and 5:41? "Their" only point is to derail substantive discussion of this matter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com