tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post3071031718980233350..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: What should the law school reform movement be about?LawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-9422378041015336462011-12-15T17:47:15.038-08:002011-12-15T17:47:15.038-08:00It is really surprising that number 1 & 2 are ...It is really surprising that number 1 & 2 are even a question given that the legal profession is one that is supposed to be based on ETHICS and has so many professional responsibility requirements. I did not know how schools reported job statistics when I went to law school and was shocked to find out that the stats were so blatantly misleading. It is worse than a used car dealer puffing as with a used car dealer you might just spend $10K rather than $200,000. I attended Brooklyn law school and was fortunate enough to transfer to Harvard after my first year. Many of my friends at Brooklyn still do not have jobs. It is really a shame as the students were smart and dedicated.Ian E. Scott, Esq.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07054217502945568834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-52862066899562878072011-11-03T06:10:05.009-07:002011-11-03T06:10:05.009-07:00Hand? Meet forehead. And Just when I thought you...Hand? Meet forehead. And Just when I thought you were getting it. <br /><br />FOLLOW...THE>>>FUCKING...$$$.<br /><br />Reform and/or end student loans. This is what ruins lives. If you want student loans then allow them to be dischargeable like all other debt in the US and make the schools partially responsible for any defaults. And then transparency won't be quite as important and you can concentrate on #3.<br /><br />Jesus you academics are so obtuse (you remind me of what Churchill said about Americans, except for the last part. Look it up). Im so glad I introduced OWS and IBR to you....need any other pointers in that ivory tower?ThirdMannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-51356786768344698652011-11-03T02:29:06.788-07:002011-11-03T02:29:06.788-07:00To the first commenter:
That would be an excellen...To the first commenter:<br /><br />That would be an excellent thing to do. Even if it was to create another, separate list rather than "change" the almighty current US News list.<br /><br />Great idea.Avornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-27826016497578220422011-11-02T21:55:24.317-07:002011-11-02T21:55:24.317-07:00Does anyone know where to get the full data set us...Does anyone know where to get the full data set used to calculate the USNWR rankings? I would love to play around with the data and some new variables to see if I can replicate the current rankings while eliminating some of the factors that create poor incentives.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-86062328484606973032011-11-02T11:55:37.697-07:002011-11-02T11:55:37.697-07:00LawProf,who makes decisions about hiring grads to ...LawProf,who makes decisions about hiring grads to pump up US News rankings or how to calculate the student-faculty ratio? Deans, OCS, the faculty?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-9012070674685376352011-11-02T11:47:31.032-07:002011-11-02T11:47:31.032-07:00You forgot about diversity. I thought that was the...You forgot about diversity. I thought that was the most important goal.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-72195914067094647722011-11-02T11:05:04.648-07:002011-11-02T11:05:04.648-07:00I find law schools hiring their own graduates to u...I find law schools hiring their own graduates to up their placement figures troubling. Not only are they hiding their true placement figures, they are using current students tuition money to do so. This is like robbing a bank using the banks money.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-22665862486787001392011-11-02T10:27:40.563-07:002011-11-02T10:27:40.563-07:00What is an academic job anyway? I always thought ...What is an academic job anyway? I always thought it was teaching. Is working in the cafeteria or being a janitor an academic job? I doubt that those students who are employed by their law schools in academic jobs do anything difficult.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-18320946384725310062011-11-02T10:10:52.115-07:002011-11-02T10:10:52.115-07:00I'm not sure "transparency" is quite...I'm not sure "transparency" is quite the right word for this movement. That would seem to imply that the law schools know what the real results are, but they're keeping them hidden. In fact, they're just as clueless as anyone else. We need an honest, scientific investigation to figure this out, instead of just averaging self-reported data.Charles Pyehttp://politicalpye.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-59379530941798661402011-11-02T10:08:14.969-07:002011-11-02T10:08:14.969-07:00Great post. I completely agree.
BTW, during my m...Great post. I completely agree.<br /><br />BTW, during my morning commute I was listening to a Joe-6-Pack AM talk radio program, and I was pleasantly surprised to hear the host and his guest mention the tuition bubble as a looming problem.Lemuelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-2990909144678773962011-11-02T10:02:27.416-07:002011-11-02T10:02:27.416-07:009:49: Caught in spam filter. It's posted now.9:49: Caught in spam filter. It's posted now.LawProfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-17089909020965208942011-11-02T09:49:10.309-07:002011-11-02T09:49:10.309-07:00Why did you delete my comment on this very topic l...Why did you delete my comment on this very topic last night?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-36226448545438271802011-11-02T09:49:03.735-07:002011-11-02T09:49:03.735-07:00Have we prepared the website listing every law pro...Have we prepared the website listing every law professor and high level administrator, along with whether they agreed to the LST petition yet?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-19845299857181947372011-11-02T09:27:07.973-07:002011-11-02T09:27:07.973-07:00Hofstra claims that 9% of its 2010 class have acad...Hofstra claims that 9% of its 2010 class have academic jobs. So if what you say is correct, then almost 1 of 10 Hofstra graduates with jobs work for Hofstra. I wonder what they are having them do.<br /><br />Also, law schools should be transparent about student/faculty ratios and other numbers that attract students.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-77327108272058127362011-11-02T09:26:31.703-07:002011-11-02T09:26:31.703-07:00Why not double the number of legal jobs and their ...Why not double the number of legal jobs and their salaries, as long as we're being realistic?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-12503151241095424142011-11-02T09:25:58.061-07:002011-11-02T09:25:58.061-07:00Another idea: Convert the third year of law schoo...Another idea: Convert the third year of law school into an apprenticeship program. Law student must work for a law firm for one year. There's no tuition but 10% of the apprentice's pay goes directly to the law school. That way, the law school will be incentivized to get the best jobs for the students. Also, the apprenticeship statistics will be easily accessible data for prospective applicants to compare schools.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-40567350405254769992011-11-02T09:21:47.858-07:002011-11-02T09:21:47.858-07:00So there's only one job for every two lawyers ...So there's only one job for every two lawyers coming out of law school? Cut the number of law schools in half. Easy solution.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-34932881065163946522011-11-02T09:12:48.080-07:002011-11-02T09:12:48.080-07:008:37: That is a good idea. In my experience studen...8:37: That is a good idea. In my experience students do not care how the rankings are made outside of the student selectivity categories. So some tweaks to the categories that drive costs could incentivize school's to lower cost or at least remove the defense that "oh, I had to keep raising tuition and lie about my employment figures because big ol' U.S. News made me!"<br /><br />Some categories to add: <br />-tuition and fees (where lower means better)<br />-annual tuition and fee raise (5y moving average)<br />-1 and 5 year graduate value survey<br />-salary 5 years out<br />-placement in NLJ 250 firms<br />-mean time to law school debt repayment<br /><br />Some categories to remove<br />-peer assessment score (reputation among academics) which incentivizes an arms race for "better" faculty<br />-spending per pupil<br />-library space (WTF?)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-59454302598914566822011-11-02T08:37:41.079-07:002011-11-02T08:37:41.079-07:00Maybe it's simpler than trying to get 200 ABA ...Maybe it's simpler than trying to get 200 ABA accredited law schools to do the right thing (which I believe will never happen). <br /><br /><br />Has anyone directed any attention to U.S. News itself? My understanding is that the law school transparency folks are pushing on the law schools themselves, and the ABA to make changes. <br /><br />Since law schools will never stop being rankings-obsessed (tis the nature of the beast), maybe we just need to change what matters in the rankings. For example, what if U.S. News used "total amount of debt upon graduation" as a metric for judging law schools? Or, "number of required skills classes?" Or, you know, what if U.S. News required the employed upon graduation data to be fully audited before submission? <br /><br />Although law schools may argue that this data is not required by the ABA, this argument ignores that it doesn't prevent them from exceeding ABA standards. <br /><br />This makes sense, too. If a law school really is the bestest law school ever, then it's graduates shouldn't be unemployed and mired in debt. If U.S. News is saying that school X is really very prestigious, and worthy of any prospective law student, well then shouldn't the outputs--not just the inputs--matter? <br /><br />Although there will be a correlation to some degree (something tells me Yale law students might manage to find a job), some transparency on this point will both properly redirect the schools' foci and, you know, actually inform prospective law students about what they're getting themselves into. <br /><br />U.S. News could still keep their rankings focused on LSAT numbers, but their data would just be more fully weighted. Has anyone tried this?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com