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The ...Law school is NOT scam, as same as Law Prof.<br /><br />The scampers are--ABA/ STATE COURT PANELS MADE A RULE PROHIBITED JD GRADS CAN NOT GIVE A LEGAL ADVICE. BY THAT RULE MEANS ---WE ARE THE POWERFUL CAN SCAM ON YOU AFTER YOU GRADUATED FROM LAW SCHOOL. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-10268918069366999162011-08-15T00:05:51.709-07:002011-08-15T00:05:51.709-07:00Guys, most people who went to legitimate schools a...Guys, most people who went to legitimate schools and studied real subjects like mathematics, science, physics, or engineering already know that law professors are a freakin' joke. The only thing that's different now is that their students are starting to realize this. In fact, most of society is becoming aware of this.<br /><br />Who knows, maybe someday people will call a "law professor" an oxymoron. Personally, I think "chatty adult babysitter" is a more apt description of what you guys actually do.<br /><br />Now, there's nothing wrong with being an adult babysitter, but should the government continue to subsidize your sky-high salaries?<br /><br />I know law schools are not directly subsidized, but let's be real. Without the government handing out 150k in nondischargeable loans to dumb kids, how could the law school system as we know it continue to exist?<br /><br />Now, I'm not sure if you law "professors" are aware of this, but Uncle Sam is BROKE and that profligate bastard is going to have to reevaluate his spending habits in the near future. This means that the public, at some point, is going to have to give the value proposition of law school a second look.<br /><br />So law professors, what makes law school a good investment at 150k a pop? Do you create jobs? Do you enhance access to the law? Do you enrich society?<br /><br />I've talked to a lot of law students, practicing attorneys, and customers of legal services, and from what I've heard law schools don't appear to do any of those things. In fact, law schools seem to make professors rich and everybody else miserable. In fact, the only people in favor of law schools these days are professors--how strange.<br /><br />But it still seems like a bad investment to me. Therefore, I don't think the government should give kids 150k to study law. Let me put this another way. Do you think it would be wise for the government to give 150k to kids to study phrenology? Would that create jobs or enhance our society? I don't think so. The only beneficiary in that situation would be the phrenology instructor.<br /><br />The writing is already on the wall guys. Our country is broke, and we cannot continue to borrow anymore. In a couple of years the government is going to stop loaning money to kids to go to law school. This will actually be a good thing for our country. But it will be a dark day for the law schools. <br /><br />When that day finally comes, do you think the law "professors" will travel to Capitol Hill and argue that the economy will collapse or minorities will denied an education if the government does not continue to loan hundreds of thousands of dollars to stupid kids? Will the law schools need a bailout?<br /><br />You guys better start working on your arguments for why law school is such an awesome investment.Idolicidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05581503655729200088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-61330421070662180992011-08-14T18:02:20.735-07:002011-08-14T18:02:20.735-07:00@ None
No worries.@ None<br /><br />No worries.HDLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09114928708740837928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-79245023689009220422011-08-14T17:33:30.392-07:002011-08-14T17:33:30.392-07:00Oh, no. Sorry. I mistook you for someone else (not...Oh, no. Sorry. I mistook you for someone else (not made of straw) here.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04034378179943090607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-29414234143703733692011-08-14T17:21:55.554-07:002011-08-14T17:21:55.554-07:00I have never said the things you are attributing t...I have never said the things you are attributing to me. I have repeatedly said that transparency is vital, but not likely enough to bring about real reform, and does not help people who have already graduated, which is why I made reference to changing rules about loans and debt. How does that go with saying law school is a buyer beware position? I have never said, and do not believe, that anyone deserves misfortune. You have created a straw man to argue with.HDLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09114928708740837928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-821537384990435302011-08-14T16:38:59.442-07:002011-08-14T16:38:59.442-07:00The foregoing comment was brought to you lovingly ...The foregoing comment was brought to you lovingly by Heave Ho. I should clarify that since you and I have talked before.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04034378179943090607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-8012504241912752942011-08-14T16:38:07.160-07:002011-08-14T16:38:07.160-07:00HDL:
"If you do nothing else after our conve...HDL:<br /><br />"If you do nothing else after our conversation (which I've appreciated - most law professors I've known wouldn't bother), press for this at your school and with anybody you know at ABA."<br /><br />I'd argue that you have an obligation to do no less. You're intimidated at participating here? Really? I'm 50% of the faces you see every day in front of you. What gives? You made me. Throw in a recession's-worth of frustration and desperation, and you got me. Now you can't bear to hear what I have to say? How now?<br /><br />Academia - traditionally - really did believe in intellectual independence and in the idea that what academics do is important for the health of society, and that it was a calling in the best civic sense such that the position - again, because of its importance - demanded that other, less tangible values than the personal financial rewards be elevated to pride of place. It seems to me, then, that unless you're just a sociopath with a commercial outline motivated by your bank balance, then you've got to do something. Otherwise, what good has a career been? Yes, there are risks, but you tell me: Between the two of us, who is the better positioned to run them? And who is actually running them? Further, between us, who is in a position to successfully force a change - which change we both (I think.) agree is fundamentally important. If legal education bears such important non-financial benefits as to justify not only your salary but the arguments of some of your colleagues that we can just blame this whole scam on those who were motivated to have a solvent financial life and who, therefore, deserve their misfortunate because they were (cynically) financially-motivated to begin with, then how can you or anyone else who considers himself an academic after the best tradition NOT agitate for change? How can you also use your next breath to argue that law school is a buyer beware proposition? Hm? Not all these things are compatible. Either you admit that you're strictly in it for the profit - and no more than a door-to-door knife salesman (I mean no offense to any law graduate actually selling knives door-to-door to survive.), and I suppose maybe we should re-think tenure (Because isn't that a fairly reliable guarantor of intellectual independence?), or your position does have social value, and there are just risks you are going to have to run so that the social importance of what you do is protected and the attendant benefits to society continue.<br /><br />I don't know what to tell you, but this doesn't add up. A lot of people have been hurt. Why do professional executive deans, admissions, financial aid and marketing get to run the mental institution over where you work? Hm? Tell me that, too.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04034378179943090607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-63145184794197603852011-08-14T15:50:54.725-07:002011-08-14T15:50:54.725-07:00Transparency is only part of the solution. HDL, y...Transparency is only part of the solution. HDL, you ask what law professors can do. The administration at most schools is comprised almost entirely of legal academics. Certainly, when it comes to matters of school policies and curriculum, I would hope that law professors would have more say. Certainly, professors in other academic cities get involved in campus politics.<br /><br />For example: Don't Ask Don't Tell was a major issue at my school during my second first years and many professors took an active part in debates and protests that occurred on campus, some going so far as to petition the administration for changes to the school's policies regarding military recruitment. Likewise, when our dean left, the professors took an active role in the interviewing and selection process for the new dean who was, surprise, a law professor at another school.<br /><br />I am not so much disappointed as I am blinded by rage when law school faculties stay mum or dismiss the concerns of their graduates. During my ethics course in fall 2007, a Wall Street Journal came out describing the conditions of temp attorneys and most law school graduates. Our professor claimed that it represented a tiny fraction of attorneys and that those who did contract work did it out of preference to other kinds of work. Three years out and 200k in debt later (after graduating in the top half of the class and landing a clerkship), I can say that people don't go looking for contract work; it's what they come to when every other place says no.<br /><br />I'll conclude by saying that every fucking law professor in this country should get on their knees and thank Congress for IBR. If it wasn't for that, your heads would have been on pikes by now.Dumpyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10390850586160299759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-54023045483973804422011-08-14T14:38:05.603-07:002011-08-14T14:38:05.603-07:00HDL - sparee us the sanctimony. Yet another ratio...HDL - sparee us the sanctimony. Yet another rationalization....so you get attacked for the stupidity you espouse but something is wrong with all of us but not your words. Everyone reads your words very well. You are a know-nothing and a do-nothing.<br /><br />You are very lucky I am not an ex-student of yours....I would spit in your face if I ran into you again, metaphorically speaking. It seems to me the only thing that gets your attention.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-22349017679322033422011-08-14T13:39:47.004-07:002011-08-14T13:39:47.004-07:00@Morse Code
Thanks very much. I have appreciated ...@Morse Code<br /><br />Thanks very much. I have appreciated our conversation, too. I have wanted to have this kind of engagement before. But looking at the tenor of some of the conversations on other blogs gave me pause. If the commenter does not express 100 percent agreement-- the same type of language, the same words even-- then he/she very often gets total abuse. I am from a different generation, not used to all that. There is little reason to volunteer for it.HDLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09114928708740837928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-8672848362221771292011-08-14T13:09:34.005-07:002011-08-14T13:09:34.005-07:00@HDL/12:18 p.m.:
I'm not sure I care if it do...@HDL/12:18 p.m.:<br /><br />I'm not sure I care if it does alter behavior significantly, although I believe it will. I'd just like to see some moral leadership from law schools and their faculties.<br /><br />What LST proposes is a two-list model, wherein graduates anonymously provide their job data (including whether a JD/bar license is required for their jobs) in one list and their salary data (expressed as a range) in another. I suspect that such an approach would confirm a lot of the scamblogs' conventional wisdom: (a) very few people get jobs with salaries at or above the so-called "median graduating income," and schools use their salaries to distort expectations for their classes as a whole; (b) fewer people are in JD-mandatory jobs after law school than anybody not recently graduated would believe; (c) unemployment is rife for recent law graduates and tends to feed on itself.<br /><br />If you do nothing else after our conversation (which I've appreciated - most law professors I've known wouldn't bother), press for this at your school and with anybody you know at ABA.Morse Code for Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533833808776688455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-59952245872429829352011-08-14T12:59:36.724-07:002011-08-14T12:59:36.724-07:00@ D. What are you talking about? I have not ration...@ D. What are you talking about? I have not rationalized anything. You are arguing with a straw man. All I've said is that transparency is needed, but I'm not sure that alone is the answer. It may be. As I said, I could be wrong in my skepticism about one act being the answer to everything.Then I said there are many other options being discussed for long term reform beyond the boom and bust cycle-- law school into college like in Europe, reforming the government loan system, score based cutoffs for admission to the profession, as in other countries, law school for two years instead of three... I was just answering the charge that no one is thinking about the direction of law schools but people on the Internet.HDLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09114928708740837928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-37946311498246070692011-08-14T12:36:21.575-07:002011-08-14T12:36:21.575-07:00HDL...wow are you a stupid stupid man. Hold on to...HDL...wow are you a stupid stupid man. Hold on to all your rationalizations....hope it makes you feel better about yourself when you wake up in the morning. All around you are people in dire straights directly because of the institutions you defend. If I follow your logic we should not have any laws at all. You are everything that is wrong with legal education. Congrats.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-76476408687452982602011-08-14T12:18:03.296-07:002011-08-14T12:18:03.296-07:00@ Morse Code. We have no disagreement about the ne...@ Morse Code. We have no disagreement about the need to find what graduates are doing and make that information available. The question whether this alone will significantly alter behavior is unknown. I've indicated my skepticism. But I could be wrong.HDLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09114928708740837928noreply@blogger.com