tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post2291021622987419963..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: What law schools accomplish: We're talking about practiceLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger100125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-90037827786995131372013-02-26T12:51:31.604-08:002013-02-26T12:51:31.604-08:00For those who have troubles swallowing due to the ...For those who have troubles swallowing due to the texture, tablets are available to make consumption easier.<br />Include about three to 4 tablespoons of vinegar to a bathtub stuffed with a tiny sum of warm h2o and only bathe in it for fifteen to twenty minutes.<br />Candida bacteria feed on other weakened friendly bacteria in the human body.<br /><br /><br />Feel free to visit my weblog <a href="http://Cntrymouse.Blogspot.com/2008/04/parlez-vous-kick-to-neck-ottawa-parte.html" rel="nofollow">persistent yeast infection and diabetes</a><br /><i>My website</i>: <b><a href="http://einarschlereth.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/indiens-krieg-gegen-das-eigene-volk.html" rel="nofollow">can you get a yeast infection after period</a></b>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-2928179471875685002013-02-21T17:33:00.627-08:002013-02-21T17:33:00.627-08:00The oil of oregano, an effective herb is also a na...The oil of oregano, an effective herb is also a natural cure, with a high content of carvacol in it being very effective if taken internally every day.<br />Drinking a lot of water, eating plain yogurt, and drinking unsweetened cranberry <br />juice as part of her daily diet can help maintain a woman's natural p - H, if she is prone to yeast infections due to constant p - H imbalance. 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This is not always something that brides or grooms have time to put together on their own.<br /><br /><br />Check out my weblog ... <a href="http://www.cercledubristol.com/groups/marriage-ceremony-planning-software-the-new-type-of-planning/" rel="nofollow">wedding website announcements</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-10827777209062670072011-08-30T06:33:58.814-07:002011-08-30T06:33:58.814-07:00I’ve been a physician for 35 years, 20 of those as...I’ve been a physician for 35 years, 20 of those as a medical school professor, so I find the comparisons with medical education interesting. As several people have commented, medical school’s traditional teaching model -- 2 years of preclinical courses followed by 2 years of practical work -- at least prepares students to function as junior, supervised physicians, or residents. Residency follows medical school (3-5 years, depending upon specialty choice) after which physicians are ready to be let loose on the public. Why doesn’t legal education do that sort of thing? I assume the answer is that there is no demand for it.<br /><br />Unlike what I am learning at this excellent blog about the legal system, in medicine there is a real demand for residents: medical centers and hospitals need them because they are the low-priced labor the system runs on. So the arrangement gives one side cheap labor; the other side gets practical training. We have our own huge, chronic problems in how we train doctors, but at least there is that mutual dependence.<br /><br />The more interesting part to me is what I am learning from all you about legal supply and demand, that there is a huge oversupply of lawyers with an apparently fixed demand for legal services. The odd thing about medicine is that the equation is reversed: a large amount of healthcare research has shown that, in medicine, supply drives demand. All those docs in the system create a demand for their services. There are several perverse reasons for that, mainly a willingness to pay for it all in a fee-for-service environment. (This needs to be fixed before it bankrupts our economy.) It is interesting to me that such a thing doesn’t happen in the law. Or does it, at least to some extent?Chris Johnsonhttp://www.chrisjohnsonmd.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-66376572011901387242011-08-30T06:06:45.427-07:002011-08-30T06:06:45.427-07:00Not because they're bad people, or lazy people...<i>Not because they're bad people, or lazy people, or even entirely stupid people, but because they lack the skills to be good lawyers.</i><br /><br />Then law schools should stop taking their money (espcially after the 1L year).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-48744838770833981512011-08-30T04:26:44.175-07:002011-08-30T04:26:44.175-07:00I don't see any need to change the model to fo...I don't see any need to change the model to focus more on practical skills. As others have said, that won't affect the demand problem and ultimately won't lead to any better employment prospects for the bottom half of graduates. Plus, lawprof is right that even if schools did attempt to train people in real skills, the training would pale in comparison to training received at an actual job.<br /><br />To a large extent, law school is just a sorting mechanism. It ranks all would-be lawyers by aptitude (roughly) and employers use that ranking to choose the people they want to train to become lawyers. <br /><br />Its not a bad idea. It just costs too much. And invites too many students.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-23798911254871443082011-08-29T23:23:22.800-07:002011-08-29T23:23:22.800-07:00"So the end result was that people that didn&..."So the end result was that people that didn't worry about getting a job on graduation, the top 15% of the class, were getting into clinics. Unfortunately, those in the lower half who will most likely go straight to hanging out a shingle got shit practical experience."<br /><br />Sweet Jesus, FINALLY someone else who went through this. I never understood the logic behind that.<br /><br />Here's my story: I didn't go directly to law school after undergrad but started my career and then decided to return back to school. I actually had prior experience in the clinic that I applied to; it was a securities arbitration / dispute resolution clinic, and prior to entering law school I had spent years working at FINRA. Great match right? I figured, even with my grades (which were roughly middle of the pack), at the least, I could be an asset to them, seeing as how most kids in that clinic knew squat about securities or the arbitration process. Even the career counselors (a worthless group of people that LawProf should tackle on another topic) thought it was a slam-dunk.<br /><br />You can probably guess what happened: interview (in which I got the impression that she would rather be watching paint dry on the wall than talk to me), follow-up e-mail thanking her for the interview, then nothing. For weeks, I didn't hear ANYTHING from her. Then a few days before the clinic was supposed to start I e-mailed her just as a reminder that I hadn't heard anything; her response was a curt 2 line reply telling me that all the positions had been filled. Honestly, she didn't even include a "sorry for taking so long to get back to you" or even a "thank you for interviewing with us".<br /><br />But the salt in the wound was the fact that I personally knew a few of the people that had been selected, all of whom had no knowledge or interest in securities or arbitration. The gem of the group was the one guy who, when I questioned him about it, came right out and said "Oh hell no, I don't care about the clinic; I just want to have it on my résumé".<br /><br />I shouldn't feel too bad, since I re-entered the field and despite not being a practicing attorney I'm actually in a MUCH better financial position than a lot of my classmates, who spend their days sitting at home, sending out dozens of résumés, worrying about CLE courses all while attempting to defer their loan payments. <br /><br />Such is life I suppose.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-71707019263711811362011-08-29T21:53:47.666-07:002011-08-29T21:53:47.666-07:00"...and ten years from now not thing will cha..."...and ten years from now not thing will change. You can quote me."<br /><br />I disagree. Something has to change. Law schools can't keep raising tuition as they are doing now (in ten years a year's tuition would be over $75,000) and they can't keep graduating two or three times as many students as there are jobs (and saddling these jobless students with a fortune in debt). Something has to change. What that is I don't know, but I can spot a bubble of thieving opportunism when I see it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-83462442740940965622011-08-29T21:26:38.074-07:002011-08-29T21:26:38.074-07:00"One point that the Professor (or a blog symp..."One point that the Professor (or a blog sympathetic to his take) may have alluded to earlier is also that law school pedagogy is pretty much designed to maximize the number of people who don't reach into that vaunted Top 25%."<br /><br />I was reading the comments section and I happened on this brilliant insight. Maybe if the law school pedagogy wasn't designed in such an insidious way, only 50% of law school students would fail to reach the top 25%. What percentage of law students would you propose make it into the top 25%? (Maybe I'm not being fair and there's a non-nonsensical reading of this comment; is the idea that in a fairer system people would take turns at having top grades, so that after three years of law school as much as 75% enjoyed some time in the top 25%? I suppose if grades were assigned randomly that could work. Sounds fair to me.) The truth is that a lot of not very bright people, like the fellow who wrote this comment, apply to law school because as a child they always liked to argue, or because they enjoy a law-related TV show, or because they have a rich lawyer uncle, or saw an actor playing a rich lawyer on TV. Then they take the LSAT, and instead of viewing it as a metric, highly imperfect to be sure, of one's ability to make sense out of the law - which, like the LSAT, is replete with uninteresting and non-profound but rather logically baroque problems - they seem to see it as an arbitrarily placed barrier on their road to riches/prosecuting nonexistent New York mob bosses. So, either they don't do very well, or they artificially pump their score up with obsessive study and LSAT tricks, and they end up in law school, where they don't do so well because they lack the aptitude for it. Then they think they deserve to get jobs anyway, that firms should see past their grades to . . . that they're nice people. Why - so they can be bad lawyers? Not only is this stupid, it's socially irresponsible. Bad lawyering harms lives, costs people their property, lands people in jail. Go to any appellate court in the country, or sift through some filings in habeas cases on Westlaw; you will see lawyers idiotically concede arguments away that could have saved their clients decades in prison, as they press other arguments that lack a scintilla of merit, or blather meaninglessly about meaningless facts. Not because they're bad people, or lazy people, or even entirely stupid people, but because they lack the skills to be good lawyers. I've seen this many times, and I know a lot of my classmates would make similar mistakes. I don't particularly want them to be lawyers. And I don't think that a lot of clinics would magically teach someone with crap for analytic ability how to know when a valid procedural default is staring them in the face and they need to switch tacks and start looking for ineffective assistance of counsel to excuse the procedural default. (Nor do I think that the kind of small-town lawyers who end up taking on habeas cases foresee, in law school, that they will one day take on habeas cases.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-23573128164894633352011-08-29T19:03:54.994-07:002011-08-29T19:03:54.994-07:00Another issue raised by the comments worthy of Law...Another issue raised by the comments worthy of LawProf's thoughts is the use [abuse?] of adjuncts. This is, from what I've seen, an amazingly exploitative practice. I know someone who was a adjunct "legal writing" instructor at a Top 30 school who was paid $4000 per course. She often taught two courses a semester. One for for 1L and one for on civil pleadings for 2L + 3L. The multiple assignments and student conferences meant that she put in about a 150 hours per semester outside of class, which, combined with class time, meant that her compensation was approaching $20 a hour. In the semesters she taught two courses, she was in essence doing a full prof's caseload for a mere $8 grand and no benefits.David Frazerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02176374648479478183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-52250230568098926462011-08-29T19:00:15.577-07:002011-08-29T19:00:15.577-07:00This blog is now pointless.This blog is now pointless.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-79403736567891607422011-08-29T16:48:11.108-07:002011-08-29T16:48:11.108-07:00...and ten years from now not thing will change. ......and ten years from now not thing will change. You can quote me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-60103136993628310272011-08-29T14:35:53.015-07:002011-08-29T14:35:53.015-07:002:02 here. I think the main rationale* is that la...2:02 here. I think the main rationale* is that law school teaches students how to teach themselves the law, since the law is constantly changing, and since people will go on to practice in areas that their classes will not have covered.<br /><br />But you don't need 6+ courses to learn that. As LawProf pointed out a few days ago, it could be taught in one semester, in one course.<br /><br />*An unspoken rationale, IMO, is that it makes Law seem more intellectually challenging than it really is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-75585845091044810772011-08-29T14:19:42.704-07:002011-08-29T14:19:42.704-07:00And I also get the sense that Bob Feinberg makes a...And I also get the sense that Bob Feinberg makes a sh*t ton more money than your typical law school prof.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-86186964854559696822011-08-29T14:16:41.751-07:002011-08-29T14:16:41.751-07:00Interesting point, 2:02
Which raises another issu...Interesting point, 2:02<br /><br />Which raises another issue: why is it so widely accepted that bar review comprises the essence of one's sustantive legal education? On what grounds should this system be defended? And, while expensive, bar review pales in comparison to the cost of law school tuition. So, again, what is there about the status quo of legal pedagogy that is even objectively worth defending? <br /><br />And what exactly is the cogent, academic rationale against teaching black letter law?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-50478469125695993922011-08-29T14:02:54.688-07:002011-08-29T14:02:54.688-07:00Are law school courses too condensed? Are they try...<i>Are law school courses too condensed? Are they trying to cover too much territory too quickly?</i><br /><br />I'm actually inclined to the view that they're not condensed enough. If professors simply lectured instead of questioning students and using class discussion to draw out the points they want to make, they could cover a lot more material. Bar review courses cover a ton of material in eight weeks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-32110789767461261042011-08-29T13:58:30.496-07:002011-08-29T13:58:30.496-07:001:25 here again. At my school, most of our 1st ye...1:25 here again. At my school, most of our 1st year classes were only 1 semester. Our 1L contracts focused on common law. If you wanted to learn Article II, Sales and Secured Transactions were offered as electives. I didnt take either one but found learning it from Bar bri was enough. Our con law class is a required first year course, but it did not really focus on and Bill of Rights issues. Again, to gain this information, one could take focused elective courses on the issue. Lastly, civ. pro was also one semester where we focused on the federal rule. The school offers a state civ. pro elective course. There definitely was not sufficient time to cover all the material in that class over one semester. I think we got to the eerie doctrine in our last week. However, my professor also assigned a "litigation exercise"group project where we had to take a case all the way from complaint through motion to dismiss/summary judgment. Our professor would hold motion hearings at the start of class so I think that would account for some of the lost time. Nonetheless, even though I did not know it then, this was the most important 1L class I had due to this "litigation exercise". I think the professor ended up scrapping it though, due to the amount of time it took up during class, for him (Our professor would respond to our interrogatories as the client, created depos, and serve as Judge) and for us. Yet, it was valuble because we actually had to compose complaints, answers, etc.---you know, prepare us to do actual lawyer work.Daniel J. Friedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13116276390419509109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-36692844440226737292011-08-29T13:39:38.312-07:002011-08-29T13:39:38.312-07:00. . . and Patent/C&T.. . . and Patent/C&T.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-63962896266157158032011-08-29T13:38:42.671-07:002011-08-29T13:38:42.671-07:00I realize, also, that there's a huge gaping ho...I realize, also, that there's a huge gaping hole where Trusts & Estates, CrimPro, Sale of Goods, and Corporations should be, but I would welcome any other suggestions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-69224804451963436062011-08-29T13:37:08.166-07:002011-08-29T13:37:08.166-07:00@1:25:
Are law school courses too condensed? Are...@1:25: <br /><br />Are law school courses too condensed? Are they trying to cover too much territory too quickly? <br /><br />At many law school, Civ Pro is a two semester course, same with Con Law. But what about Property? (another jurisprudentially volumnious course). <br /><br />Does the question of whether 2L and 3L are any use elide over the fact that perhaps too much information is expected to be covered in 1L? <br /><br />Imagine the following: <br /><br />A law school curriculum that is more spaced out and comprehensive with more room for feedback and more opportunities for improvement? Civ Pro and Con Law are already two semester courses at many law schools. Why not build on this and expand it to include two semester versions of other foundational courses like Contracts and Property? Second Year, focus can shift to the (for lack of a better term) Negligence-themed areas of law Torts, Crim Law, and Professional Responsbility (which I emphatically do not believe needs to be a year long course) and maybe an elective. While 3L can be focused on clinics and externships and coursework in related areas of study (Evidence, Reg Law, Patent, Civil Practice, etc.)<br /><br />What this amounts to is a gutting of the number of disciplines covered in law school, which is why it will never come to pass. But it is a far more intuitive system of instruction than the firehose of information and frontloading of 1L grades that define the current model.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-87146602505082456252011-08-29T13:36:11.911-07:002011-08-29T13:36:11.911-07:00Are there any English law students here? I heard t...Are there any English law students here? I heard that in England, exams are not even graded by your professor. They are sent to some central repository and blind graded by someone who has never met you, similar to the way the bar exam is graded.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-80047786745433736262011-08-29T13:30:59.954-07:002011-08-29T13:30:59.954-07:001:25, that's a very good point, although one t...1:25, that's a very good point, although one that is easily remediable by adding a few hours to each class semester.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-32146982459406594462011-08-29T13:30:02.766-07:002011-08-29T13:30:02.766-07:00@1:23,
Possibly, but that don't mean he knew...@1:23, <br /><br />Possibly, but that don't mean he knew thing one about legal writing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com