tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post2245207990988950418..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: In the long runLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger246125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-64860482385797456322013-02-26T16:04:42.199-08:002013-02-26T16:04:42.199-08:00"I am curious as to the attacks on the gawker..."I am curious as to the attacks on the gawker author. "<br /><br />A combination of raw stinking ignorance and an idea that we all get our just desserts. And I'm sure that a lot of new grads/students in good programs don't want to hear that they've purchased a very iffy $150K ticket to *maybe* succeed at having a career. Not a lucrative career, but a career good enough to pay off those loans and then make a living.Barry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-59768273689700648472013-02-10T13:30:49.872-08:002013-02-10T13:30:49.872-08:00From being in this profession for a long time, it ...From being in this profession for a long time, it is clear that up or out has morphed from a gentle policy where lawyers were pushed out of firms and given enough time to find other good jobs to a policy of mass firings. Some firms apply up or out with no notice, just severance of a couple of months. Others give two or three months notice. In some firms, only favored lawyers get the time to look for another job. <br /><br />The system of mass firings feeds on itself. It could not possibly serve any valid societal goal. That is what the legal profession has become. <br /><br />Too many first years are being run through this system as compared to the number of real long term legal jobs. If the large law firms were to actually right their hiring policies, we would be down to very small law school classes because very few people would in fact get high paying entry level jobs. A law firm might hire 10-20 rather than 40-50 a year if it were comitted to long term placement of its lawyers in the legal profession. That would mean that all of the law schools at the top would be under pressure to reduce their class sizes, as very few graduates would get high paying jobs enabling them to pay for the cost of law school.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-54079719952097590562013-02-10T12:56:16.782-08:002013-02-10T12:56:16.782-08:00For many people, going to a law school with a less...For many people, going to a law school with a less than top ranking and expecting everything to fall into place would have been a stretch even years ago. I am not sure how someone going to a school that is neither ranked very high nor a leading school in a local market would not expect that there could be a problem getting a job. It has always been the case that if you went to a low ranked school, you had a risk of falling out of the profession or not getting a job.<br /><br />The difference now is that people with high rankings in really good schools can end up with doc review jobs. That is pretty much a travesty.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-64532327858444993772013-02-10T12:52:58.346-08:002013-02-10T12:52:58.346-08:00Med School is about the same price. We paid $46,0...Med School is about the same price. We paid $46,000 tuition about a year ago.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-25433683217164030142013-02-10T12:50:34.993-08:002013-02-10T12:50:34.993-08:00You are missing the point. This person has law sc...You are missing the point. This person has law school debt paid off and was a renter in New York City. He did move back home to the exurbs of a dynamic city where there is a reasonable chance of getting legal work and he can live at very little cost in his father's home. He did not stick around NYC, where he has to pay rent to live.<br /><br />There is no good answer to not being able to get any type of legal job for this long a period - 18 months. It is a reflection of the glut of lawyers, because this person is willing to go anywhere to work and has a very strong academic background. We are not talking about bombing on interviews. We are talking about not getting interviews.<br /><br />This surely suggests that there is major structural problem with the job market for lawyers that needs governmental intervention to fix. The free market is not working. Supply of lawyers vastly exceeds demand even at the top of the profession for someone who would be at the most marketable stage of his/her career absent the glut of lawyers.<br />This is a systemic problem that needs correction through reducing law school enrollment by leaps and bounds and collecting the longitudinal data LawProf is talking about. <br /><br />There is no good answer to fix this problem but governmental intervention.<br /><br />This person needs to retool in short order if nothing changes. Maybe give it another 6 -8 months. After that, he/she needs to do something else. Maybe it is retraining or maybe getting a job that does not require a law degree in an area that has more promise (e.g. real estate, health care, education).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-65397985063712078362013-02-08T11:07:02.624-08:002013-02-08T11:07:02.624-08:00TTAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-30610229954733362142013-02-07T17:40:17.067-08:002013-02-07T17:40:17.067-08:00This site is just too depressing. I can't rea...This site is just too depressing. I can't read it anymore. You people really need to get out. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-33946346316151862122013-02-07T17:27:57.761-08:002013-02-07T17:27:57.761-08:00AnonymousFebruary 6, 2013 at 11:20 AM
"If I ...AnonymousFebruary 6, 2013 at 11:20 AM<br /><br />"If I lost my job first thing I would do is move about two hours north of NYC and take the train in for interviews as needed. "<br /><br /><br />If you didn't keep up the payments on your place in NYC (a) you'd be sued, (b) the first credit check any prospective employer would run would disqualify you.Barry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-55106660734467324562013-02-07T09:46:35.772-08:002013-02-07T09:46:35.772-08:00Well, he *may* be exceptionally bright. All that ...Well, he *may* be exceptionally bright. All that we can really say for sure is that he tests well, and had either (or both!) the foresight to study hard, and the familial support.<br /><br />Best and brightest should apply to more than just test-taking ability. How about living within one's means? Maybe not buying a house with cash when interest rates are at historic lows (I'm assuming he put a large amount of money into dad's house (which he gets props for! Good on him for supporting his family!)). <br /><br />Point being, truly exceptionally bright people are more about what they accomplish outside of university than just what schools they got into. That's the open doorway. What you do once you walk in is what counts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-75844710066301007282013-02-07T09:43:14.232-08:002013-02-07T09:43:14.232-08:00It doesn't take up 40% of your salary. It'...It doesn't take up 40% of your salary. It's called graduated tax (federal income, and the others are nowhere near 40% rates).<br /><br />And again... he CHOSE to live in the highest priced real estate in the most expensive city in the world (or close). You don't get to do that and then claim poverty. He had plenty of options to pay MUCH less in rent. He chose not to. <br /><br />I feel bad for him as a person, and I think the system is rotten. However, he didn't "do everything right", aside from going to the right schools. That's the problem! "Doing everything right" is more than getting your pedigree. There's no golden ticket, no matter what he thought (or was told). As a spokesperson for this movement, I agree, he's not the best...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-74038591672398220342013-02-07T09:38:54.395-08:002013-02-07T09:38:54.395-08:00Please, stop with the "oh NY is SO expensive!...Please, stop with the "oh NY is SO expensive!" story. Yeah, a downtown condo overlooking Central Park IS expensive! Grossly expensive! That's why people live elsewhere and commute!<br /><br />You don't get to make like 4x the median salary (which for NY city, is like $60k. Plenty of people making that living near there), CHOOSE to live in the most expensive city in the world, and then complain that you're not really making that much. That's like saying "gee, I know I make 1/4 mill a year, but you know, after the nanny, housekeeper, private pre-school, max'd out 401k, Mercedes and Benz payments, it's not *really* that much money. I'm middle class!"<br /><br />This point has been made before, but it doesn't always seem to penetrate.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-62657660146588584702013-02-07T09:33:53.169-08:002013-02-07T09:33:53.169-08:00I love how commenters throw out rebuttals like &qu...I love how commenters throw out rebuttals like "you think ? I'm amazed you passed the LSAT!" So haughty! :)<br /><br />Look, if a baby lawyer says he lived in a high-rise condo overlooking Central Park, and that he's burned through his savings AFTER paying off law school loans, one is kind of justified in assuming he hasn't a ton of savings relative to his (professed) salary.<br /><br />I just love how people here (and lawyers/JDs) so often think they're "thinking critically" when talking about almost completely subjective things (e.g., savings rates).<br /><br />:)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-8250612521334817972013-02-07T09:28:56.106-08:002013-02-07T09:28:56.106-08:00Very true, and I agree that I'm assuming here....Very true, and I agree that I'm assuming here. Fair point.<br /><br />And I do agree with you that the crux of the story stands. I.e., that there's not much likelihood of maintaining a decent lifestyle for more than a few years (if that!)<br /><br />However... whether he worked all the time or not is irrelevant to my main point of living within one's means. This is by no means limited to high-earning baby lawyers. It's REALLY common for people of all socioeconomic backgrounds and positions to live at/beyond their means. It's just that I'd expect someone as educated and privileged (in the sense that he's earning more than the vast majority of people) to have a little more foresight and control. Sure, making 6 figures is great! However, he should have been smart enough (not sure if "smart" is the best word here) to save and live a little more reasonably. By any measure, an apartment overlooking Central Park is excessive spending.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-85204075309767944282013-02-07T05:54:15.679-08:002013-02-07T05:54:15.679-08:00http://www.americanlawyer.com/PubArticleALD.jsp?id...http://www.americanlawyer.com/PubArticleALD.jsp?id=1202587253629&Citi_Firms_Posted_43_Percent_Rise_in_2012_Profits<br /><br />For those of us who think paying attention to firm profitability is crucial in understanding where biglaw is going, citi reports 4.3 profit for 2012 but most of that is driven by year-end 4th quarter demand and not sustainable.<br /><br />Read the article. Basically AmLaw 50 finished flat to 2011 and small firms declined.<br /><br />For those concerned about hiring, there was an 0.7 increase in head count and , get this , 0.1 increase in equity partners.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-48503031949437888612013-02-07T05:47:45.724-08:002013-02-07T05:47:45.724-08:004:18 - This is why one of the exceptions to avoidi...4:18 - This is why one of the exceptions to avoiding law school is if you have solid employment connections. Ms. Zazalli-Hogan could have graduated in the bottom half at Cooley and she would have been just fine. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-54876076883734867962013-02-07T01:09:22.541-08:002013-02-07T01:09:22.541-08:00Cooley have found a profitable niche. They'll ...Cooley have found a profitable niche. They'll take people who simply cannot get into any other law school. They are the law school of last resort. But this only works when there are more applicants than places. <br /><br />This year it looks like there may be more places than applicants. Have we ever seen this before? It means Cooley is going to be in trouble. You can see why LeDuc is spinning this bullshit. It is desperation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-74202112010071112882013-02-07T00:13:59.295-08:002013-02-07T00:13:59.295-08:00Hamilton Nolan is no friend of this movement. He ...Hamilton Nolan is no friend of this movement. He is a schuedenfraude addicted frat boy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-61151421555016367022013-02-06T23:32:32.941-08:002013-02-06T23:32:32.941-08:00One might also consider that in NYC, you pay Feder...One might also consider that in NYC, you pay Federal, State and city income tax as well as Social Security ... this all will take up some 40% of your income ... you pay 8% or so sales tax on everything you buy ... you pay high rent and living costs ... you pay student loans ... Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-60740936452218152322013-02-06T22:34:52.388-08:002013-02-06T22:34:52.388-08:00http://forgottenattorney.wordpress.com/page/2/http://forgottenattorney.wordpress.com/page/2/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-56756769503328838322013-02-06T22:28:14.782-08:002013-02-06T22:28:14.782-08:00^This.^This.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-28712188634558926992013-02-06T22:09:58.244-08:002013-02-06T22:09:58.244-08:00Oh please. he was in a position to do something a...Oh please. he was in a position to do something about all the lawyers his firm took advantage of and I bet he did jack sh*t. No, maybe he couldn't actually do anything....more importantly I'm sure he actually didn't give a cr@p about all the others flailing around him until now because he's in the same position. I'll save my tears for someone who deserves it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-19104643070653029002013-02-06T21:26:26.742-08:002013-02-06T21:26:26.742-08:00Another gem from Cooley's website, written by ...Another gem from Cooley's website, written by none other than the Master, LeDuc. It's in his commentary section, under the title: Enough about the Ills and Evils of Legal Education (you naughty scambloggers, YOU!) (I added that last part.) <br /><br />Here's LeDuc at his finest:<br /><br />"The Critics Overstate the Effect of Law School Cost and Debt <br /><br /><br />The final argument of the critics is based on financial considerations. Law school is too costly, remuneration is too low, and the debt is too high, according to the critics. The response to this argument is the same as to the employment level—the facts don’t support the assertions, and context is totally missing. <br /><br />Critics offer no comparison of law school costs to the cost of other educational programs at either the graduate or professional levels. Is law school tuition somehow differentiated as proportionately more expensive than medical school tuition or MBA tuition, or Ph.D. program tuition? Other than the inapposite comparison to inflation, no support is offered for this argument other than the subjective view that the cost of legal education is just too high."<br /><br />(And now, my favorite part from him...drum roll please...)<br /><br />"Much could be said about the undisciplined borrowing practices of today's law students, including their borrowing during undergraduate days..."<br /><br />In other words, it's ALL the students' fault, guys - their prolifigate spending ways. Unbelievable insult to injury...raise tuition to astronomical levels - take more and more from the students - and then BLAME THEM FOR HAVING TO BORROW SO MUCH! It couldn't be that tuition was too high, now, could it?<br /><br />If I were a damn student at that school, I would drop out RIGHT NOW.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-23689890632351049172013-02-06T21:01:39.903-08:002013-02-06T21:01:39.903-08:00"One commenter on this site has posted dozens..."One commenter on this site has posted dozens of comments about how law is a demographic pyramid, with fewer and fewer jobs available for middle-aged lawyers, and with rampant age discrimination simply being a standard feature of big firm and perhaps also in-house hiring and firing practices. As far as I can tell this perspective is anecdotal, which certainly doesn't discredit it, but we clearly need a lot of longitudinal work done on the subject."<br /><br />....and respectfully, this is a major problem in this scam....even LAWPROF does not fully understand what all of us who really work as lawyers in private practice know to be the truth. We know how unstable law jobs are. We have seen partners kicked out of firms. We have known colleagues kicked out of firms through no fault of their own with nowhere to go. We have watched so many fall out of law altogether. Yes "we clearly need a lot of longitudinal work done on the subject" because if the truth was demonstrated with data regarding long term employment statistics, only a complete fool would buy a law degree, period. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-2542470347898717962013-02-06T20:37:06.641-08:002013-02-06T20:37:06.641-08:00You know what? F#ck this guy (the guy who was let...You know what? F#ck this guy (the guy who was let go by a Big law firm in 2010). He is just below Big Law partners and TTT legal academics in the line of people I feel sorry for. This guy didn't give a sh%t about all the contract attorneys being hired in tiny little rooms doing crap work for crap wages and zero career prospects. When all that was going down I looked around and couldn't help but notice that it would be getting to guys like this soon but always promised myself to remember how the vast majority behaved....looking down their noses at those people, perfectly happy to take advantage. Sucks when the chickens come home to roost, huh?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-83518780592500420262013-02-06T20:33:01.134-08:002013-02-06T20:33:01.134-08:00In case anyone is interested in opining on the val...In case anyone is interested in opining on the value they have been bestowed by legal scholarship. University of Tulsa Law School's very own Tamara Piety is compiling a best of list of law review articles. <br /><br />http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2013/02/the-utility-of-scholarship.html#comments<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com