tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post2205029507081246550..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: Class stratification and social indifferenceLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-56383914235206724232011-12-12T10:01:21.285-08:002011-12-12T10:01:21.285-08:00At my law school the faculty use the lounge (not t...At my law school the faculty use the lounge (not the faculty lounge but a separate one) once or twice each week for their "Speaker Series" lunch events. They put a sign on the door barring anyone from entering the lounge at that time. Building and facilities staff who store their lunches in the kitchen have to wait outside. If you go there at lunchtime you can see the staff approach, one-by-one, read the sign on the door, and walk away. They have to delay their lunch until the faculty is done pontificating. Ironically, some of these speakers are speaking (very earnestly) on "social justice" topics. <br /><br />That's how the faculty rolls. Proposing solutions to problems that are fun to think about, but that they know will never be implemented. I RA for a professor and the hardest part of writing his articles is always the proposed solutions since his ideas are so impractical. All the while the blue-collar, overwhelmingly black and hispanic facilities staff waits outside for their lunches. They rail against biglaw, not understanding why their students with that option choose firms (hint: not because the partners are such wonderful<br />people). <br /><br />My parents, who grew up blue-collar, both had a distrust of "liberal academics" (both vote Democrat). Being a reasonably smart kid myself, I thought it was just the typical blue-collar anti-intellectual prejudice that's so celebrated in America. Now, having gone through three years of education at one of the nation's top schools, I can wholeheartedly say I feel the same way as do many of my peers. Only it's taken my generation almost a trillion dollars to do so- that's a trillion daily reminders. Student debt gives someone an awful lot of opportunities to think about whether their education was valuable or not. <br /><br />Academia not only spends other people's money freely, they are also bleeding their cultural capital among the middle and upper-middle classes. What this means for the future of American higher education is anyone's guess, but I suspect it won't be good for anybody.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-36904901677630761892011-12-11T21:31:24.252-08:002011-12-11T21:31:24.252-08:00One thing that occurs to me, license-guy, is that ...One thing that occurs to me, license-guy, is that there's never an end point: you get admitted to a bar somewhere, and then you're going to have annual dues, CLE, assessments, and the like, until you decide to more or less give up the license.<br /><br />Your investment up to now is a sunk cost. It's sunk. Spending more might give you some sort of satisfaction, but you might think about other ways the same money might give you satisfaction.<br /><br />CCAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-70658613740246041062011-12-11T18:54:35.852-08:002011-12-11T18:54:35.852-08:00I think you meant me (you referenced yourself).......I think you meant me (you referenced yourself)....the worst thing about this blog is the endless assortment of crazy trolls and cyber detectives. Just laugh them offAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-741294445424573742011-12-11T18:30:27.564-08:002011-12-11T18:30:27.564-08:00Thanks, 3:48. I need to not let the trolls bother...Thanks, 3:48. I need to not let the trolls bother me so much. I would have spent a much better Sunday if I had.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-51880135519440995702011-12-11T18:26:32.291-08:002011-12-11T18:26:32.291-08:00Look who is talking.Look who is talking.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-13489761169339951522011-12-11T18:19:33.412-08:002011-12-11T18:19:33.412-08:00So tired of paranoid morons questioning people who...So tired of paranoid morons questioning people who are kind enough to take the time out to share their stories. @3:48, ignore all the annoying trolls and thanks for sharing.<br /><br />The idiocy I witness in the legal ranks, from top to bottom, is astounding. I have never seen so many personality defects. Who (and why) in the world would question all of that? Get a life you wackjobs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-6539119678374417712011-12-11T17:37:12.676-08:002011-12-11T17:37:12.676-08:00Yes, he should be. Thank-you, LawProf, for having...Yes, he should be. Thank-you, LawProf, for having the moral courage to speak out about something that most prefer to hide or ignore.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-40631328929338797862011-12-11T16:59:47.449-08:002011-12-11T16:59:47.449-08:00First comment is spot on. Full marks to the law p...First comment is spot on. Full marks to the law prof here, he is actually trying to do something, and having an impact. He should be thanked for doing this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-14217274876030297822011-12-11T15:48:31.474-08:002011-12-11T15:48:31.474-08:00A correction to the post @2:49: I haven't been...A correction to the post @2:49: I haven't been able to get paid LEGAL employment. (I forgot to insert the word legal in that sentence.) I am fortunate to have a job that pays $12,000 a year, which has allowed me the flexibility to do volunteer, unpaid legal work up until recently and now affords me the financial security and time to look for a full-time job in the state in which I will be soon finishing my licensing requirements.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-13174349278528746252011-12-11T15:34:51.781-08:002011-12-11T15:34:51.781-08:00You wrote as if bar loans do not exist, now you ar...You wrote as if bar loans do not exist, now you are changing what you said--talking about the federal government.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-41326918038353617822011-12-11T15:28:42.135-08:002011-12-11T15:28:42.135-08:00Dear Lord someone please do something about this p...Dear Lord someone please do something about this putrid institution known as Cooley. <br /><br />http://www.cooley.edu/newsevents/2010/022310_cooley_stadium.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-55237274144423606992011-12-11T15:28:09.384-08:002011-12-11T15:28:09.384-08:00Mommy?Mommy?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-9650227369997762422011-12-11T15:25:45.298-08:002011-12-11T15:25:45.298-08:00The idea that anyone can get a bar loan is ridicul...The idea that anyone can get a bar loan is ridiculous. I asked the moron earlier to provide a link and his response was google it, because he doesn't know what the f*ck he is talking about. A bar loan is not an educational loan guaranteed by the federal government. It is like credit card debt. Not everyone can get one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-14509104992338772622011-12-11T14:49:15.567-08:002011-12-11T14:49:15.567-08:00@2:29. I am flying back because the state I ultim...@2:29. I am flying back because the state I ultimately will live in (I hope very soon)has much better job opportunities overall - legal or otherwise. They are overall in a better economic condition than the state in which I am currently and temporarily residing in, which has been described as the epicenter of the foreclosure crisis. I never had any intention of residing here, I just temporarily returned to reside with my parents, until I found a decent paying job.<br /><br />In currently searching for employment, I can't rule anything out. I am searching for everything, which I think you have to do in this job market. I guess I should not say that I will never end up working in the legal field. But I am no longer focusing my search in that area, because after a year and a half, I haven't been able to get paid employment so it would surprise me to get it in the future. I have made the mental shift to move on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-90220938376134951382011-12-11T14:36:35.192-08:002011-12-11T14:36:35.192-08:00@1:46: It's obvious you didn't really read...@1:46: It's obvious you didn't really read any of my posts. <br /><br />Here are some answers: <br /><br />(1) I couldn't get a bar loan. I explained why in my post at 12:00. It would have required my getting a co-signer and I was reluctant to have someone else be responsible for my debt, especially when I wasn't sure I would be able to pay it back. My loans in law school did not require a co-signer and were eligible for programs like IBR and forebearance. A private loan wasn't. That's the difference.<br /><br />(2) I clearly explained why I was getting my license in another state. See my post at 12:00. For more clarification, I was anticipating moving to the other state and had already filled out the applications and submitted the money and studied for that state's bar. I had to unexpectedly move back to my homestate, after not being able to find a job to continue to support myself. Instead of changing states after I had already purchased the bar materials, paid for the fees and significantly studied, I decided to finish getting the license in that state, thinking that my residence in my current state with my parents would only be temporary until I could get a better job in the other state. It's taken a little longer than I expected.<br /><br />(3) Because it is only $3000 and I am not going to not finish my dream when I am just $3000 shy of getting licensed. I HAVE ALREADY PASSED THE BAR AND DID ALL THE WORK. I am not going to throw that all away and walk away when I am just moments from getting licensed. I studied months for that damn thing and attended years of law school. I deserve that license. I am not going to let $3000 deprive me of the satisfaction of seeing my work completed, regardless of whether I ever practice law or not.<br /><br />(4) Again, I'll repeat what I said at 12:48. I have not said that 60% of law students are indigent. What I said was that 60% of law students in the cultural competency class I attended indicated that there was a time in their lives when they went hungry due to lack of money to buy food. Why is that so hard for you to believe? If you come from a place where you have never had to experience that, be thankful for it. I will repeat what I said @12:48: I am not saying that that incident signifies that 60% of law school students are dirt poor. What that does signify is that we need to all stop our assumptions and start realizing that with more and more students attending school on student loans, that more and more may be from 'less-prestigious' backgrounds. When more come from less-prestigious backgrounds, you increase the likelihood that more students may come from backgrounds involving financial struggles. Law professors need to be more aware of that and change their perceptions of their students. That's all I'm saying. <br /><br />Why my message threatens some and some find it so hard to believe, I simply can't fathom. Perhaps there is a substantial difference in our financial backgrounds and what I am taking for granted as a common struggle is not so common for some of you...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-7394246148008284282011-12-11T14:29:47.913-08:002011-12-11T14:29:47.913-08:00Anonymous @ 1:35. As to why you are flying back a...Anonymous @ 1:35. As to why you are flying back and forth to another state, you said it was because of the job market! Another reason your story makes no sense, if you have have no plans on practicing.Briannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-11349352236088711142011-12-11T13:46:04.029-08:002011-12-11T13:46:04.029-08:00I have to agree with Brian - your story really doe...I have to agree with Brian - your story really doesn't make much of any sense. <br /><br />(1) Why continue law school just to finish and take out debt, but not take out an additional loan to get the bar license that seems so important to you;<br /><br />(2) If you're just hell bent on getting a license, why does it have to be in another state?<br /><br />(3) If you're as frugal as you claim and want to be financially solvent, why continue to blow money on an out of state law license? <br /><br />(4) Your point is valid if true about the teacher becoming the student in the sense that she had no clue what she was talking about, but there's no way 60% of law students are the kind of client who literally cannot afford food - i.e., absolutely no family, friends, or anyone else to rely on. You are not indigent just because you have $12 in your bank account and can't afford food. I'm not diminishing your story, just your assertion that 60% (did you actually survey your class and it was actually an even 60%?) of law students are dirt poor. <br /><br />What are you trying to sell?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-10355684697288825682011-12-11T13:41:43.524-08:002011-12-11T13:41:43.524-08:00@1:10. You're right - it is an unusual class....@1:10. You're right - it is an unusual class. The semester I attended it was the first semester the law school offered it and they were offering it as an experimental course. My understanding was that it was quite successful and the law school still offers it to this day.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-53303868658140645202011-12-11T13:35:43.842-08:002011-12-11T13:35:43.842-08:001:06: Brian - You need to read my post carefully. ...1:06: Brian - You need to read my post carefully. I say I have given up my dream of PRACTICING the law. I specifically make clear that I have NOT given up my dream of becoming licensed, because as I indicated, I am not going to give up on getting licensed after investing so much money. Licensing and practicing are two different things altogether. I don't want to spend the rest of my life explaining to everyone that I know that I really passed the bar and was that close to being an attorney but didn't have enough money to get licensed. It is only $3000 to become licensed and I can and will come up with the money. In another words, there is an end in sight for that goal and reaching it depends entirely on me and my ability to save the money. <br /><br />Getting a paid legal job is another story. It doesn't depend on me and there is no end in sight. Given the lack of jobs and the fact that I can't seem to find a paid legal position, it will take me many more years to be paid at being an attorney, if ever. I have looked extensively (I am interested in public interest law) and a significant portion of the jobs are unpaid internships. I have also looked at and applied to jobs in the private sector, but all want 3-5 years of experience. I can't continue to work unpaid for years to get that 3-5 years of experience and destroy my finances in the hope that one day I will eventually be paid. I have already done that for the last year and a half and it is time to move on and get paid employment, even if it is in another field. One can be a licensed attorney and not practice the law, Brian. That is exactly what I intend to do. Please read more carefully.<br /><br />As for why I am flying back and forth and getting my license in a different state, I explained very clearly in my post at 12:00pm why I did that. Feel free to reread that. <br /><br />Lastly, as far as the story about my professor being fabricated, I am not sure why you find it so hard to believe. Your disbelief says much more about your biases than it says anything about me. As I mentioned, although the woman volunteered at Legal Aid, she is firmly in the 1%. In fact, the combined salary of her and her husband for the last 10 years I am estimating to be over 1 million annually. Given that kind of a salary, it is not surprising that she would forget that most people don't have $5000 ready and waiting for them in their bank accounts. In addition, she was raised by a single mom, and my perception was she was also angry with the client for not paying his child support. So she didn't think twice in telling him to simply pay it.<br /><br />You can disbelieve all you want, Brian, incluenced by all your biases. But that doesn't change the fact that it happened and that my classmates experienced it.<br /><br />And now, I'm signing off. It's a beautiful day and I don't intend to miss any more of it by responding to replies on the computer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-27941597137091890342011-12-11T13:10:54.567-08:002011-12-11T13:10:54.567-08:00I have never heard of a class like that. It is not...I have never heard of a class like that. It is not usual. But, in any event, my initial point was that we are dealing with anecdotes based upon our individual experiences. You are speaking as If you know the minds of 17,000 people, based on a class that has to be unique. I have never met any person like you are describing. So, it is interesting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-24376224846511190722011-12-11T13:06:00.309-08:002011-12-11T13:06:00.309-08:00Anonymous @ 12:37. Your story does not make any ...Anonymous @ 12:37. Your story does not make any sense and you contradict yourself in your various posts. In your last post you say you have given up your dream of practicing law, when you previously informed us that it will take longer but you are almost there. Why are you flying back and forth to a state you don't live in, to get entered into a bar when you have given u the idea of practicing law?<br /><br />Your story about your professor also comes across as fabricated. I don't doubt the cluelessness of many law professors, but as a legal aid lawyer the story about her legal aid client does not ring true on so many levels. Moreover, the arrogant and clueless minority female professor you portray may say more about you than her.Briannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-89010216126997855562011-12-11T12:48:34.456-08:002011-12-11T12:48:34.456-08:00@12:24: I hope you don't mind if I avoid answe...@12:24: I hope you don't mind if I avoid answering which law school I attended, simply because I think I have already given out too much information and preserving my anonymous identity is VERY important to me. Given the information I have already given out, one might be able to ascertain my identity.<br /><br />I can say this: it is a school that is WELL-KNOWN for being fourth tier, although I don't think it differs too much from other schools around the country in the type of students it attracts. And please note that I am not saying that 60% of all law students are impoverished. What I am saying is that when a professor asked her students how many had gone hungry at some point in their lives due to lack of funds to buy food, 60% indicated they had. <br /><br />What that indicates is that, with the advent of more and more students relying on student loans to complete their education, law professors and the general public have to realize that more and more students from lower class backgrounds may be filling seats in law schools, simply because they have access to student loans. In other words, maybe WE, the students don't need a class on how lack of finances can impact access to the legal system. Maybe we need to TEACH it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-7543061414113299602011-12-11T12:37:06.130-08:002011-12-11T12:37:06.130-08:00@12:16: I was in the middle of law school and ran ...@12:16: I was in the middle of law school and ran out of money with just a few semesters before graduation. I was faced with the choice of not finishing or taking out loans. I chose the latter because I didn't want to not finish what I started.<br /><br />As for motivation to continue pursuing a legal career, I no longer have it. A legal career has taken too long and far too much money to be considered worthwhile for me. I am in such dire straits financially simply for having pursued this profession that it's hard for me to view the profession in a positive light and I know that would affect how I did my job. I will continue with my bar licensing and finish that only because I worked so hard and I am not going to let the lack of $3000 stand in the way of completing my goal. <br /><br />I have legal experience because I have volunteered extensively while in law school and in the year and a half after graduation. I've gotten a lot of experience from some great internships where I was given heavy responsbility, including writing opinions for an influential and well-known judge and working in public interest law, which was my passion. But I just recently finished up my last legal internship and I know that that was the last legal work I will ever do in my lifetime. It's time for me to focus on becoming financially solvent and that has become contrary to working in the legal field. I am sad and happy at the same time: sad to give up a dream I have had for so long and happy to give up the burden of struggling so hard to reach it. I am now directing my energies to a new profession, and am excited to see where that will take me...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-64873677386478069412011-12-11T12:24:47.781-08:002011-12-11T12:24:47.781-08:00@ 12 pm, what law school did you go to? You will n...@ 12 pm, what law school did you go to? You will not be compromising your anonymity, as there must be thousands of graduates from the same place. I do not doubt there are many law students who are struggling, and not in the sense of the cliche of the struggling grad students who can be found in every discipline, living on ramen noodles and Kraft Mac and Cheese and on the lookout for school events with free food. I was thinking about the backgrounds of the students, what circumstances they grew up in. I would be surprised if 60 percent of a law school consisted of people who grew up in poverty.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-83422328113129308282011-12-11T12:16:45.993-08:002011-12-11T12:16:45.993-08:00@ 12:00 PM
So, what was it about law school that ...@ 12:00 PM<br /><br />So, what was it about law school that made you give up your conventional wisdom and frugality about taking out debt? <br /><br />Also, what gives you the motivation to continue pursuing a legal career? Do you have a job lined up? Do you have any legal experience in any field?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com