tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post2139017246383224641..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: Cautionary notesLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-50901167587979458562012-01-30T02:08:09.293-08:002012-01-30T02:08:09.293-08:00You provides a very nice post to us. Its really ve...You provides a very nice post to us. Its really very helpful to me to find result on search engine. Hope to hear more good information from your side.<br /><a href="http://www.magiccirclelawtutors.co.uk/law_tuition.html" rel="nofollow">Law tuition London</a>Jony Gibsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09902203703910298295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-34917734364765346182011-12-28T12:59:52.230-08:002011-12-28T12:59:52.230-08:00Wait, never mind. I see it now; $145K was the tot...Wait, never mind. I see it now; $145K was the total principal, which was accuring interest while he was in school as well. My mistake.ARnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-66185825786783145442011-12-28T12:58:49.017-08:002011-12-28T12:58:49.017-08:00Not to cast doubt on anything that was said in thi...Not to cast doubt on anything that was said in this post, but these numbers don't look right to me:<br /><br />"He incurred $145K in loans over the course of law school, which, because the interest on the loans accumulates, has grown to a principal balance of $165K seven months after his graduation from this excellent school. "<br /><br />Am I misreading this? If his loan principal grew from $145K to $165K in seven months, that's 1.85% per <i>month</i>, equal to an APR of very nearly 25%. My multiple loans (which I expect to be paying off until I die) have rates in the neighborhood of 2-3%.<br /><br />I apologize if there's something I'm overlooking here.ARnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-53925640480768880062011-12-28T07:33:39.822-08:002011-12-28T07:33:39.822-08:00Come on guys! You are supposed to be lawyers! Or...Come on guys! You are supposed to be lawyers! Or at least you are training to be lawyers!<br /><br />If a client walked into your office complaining that he had just been DEFRAUDED out of $100,000 or more, and the people who defrauded him were demanding sizable payments for the rest of his working life, what you do?<br /><br />After 25 years of law practice, a sizeable chunk dealilng with debt and bankruptcy, my answer, in a word is: DEFAULT.<br /><br />If you honestly believe someone has cheated you, you don't pay them.<br /><br />The simple truth in our society is that it is almost impossible to collect money if the debtor puts on any serious defense.<br /><br />Fraud is a defense. One of the remedies for fraud is restitution. And it is very hard to collect on a promisory note which was obtained by fraud.<br /><br />The attorneys fees for defending a fraud case will be high, probably in excess of the amount being claimed. As an unemployed attorneys, on the other hand, you have the time and the incentive to fight this.<br /><br />You have absolutely nothing to lose.<br /><br />Since the debts are non-dischagable in bankruptcy, you only other option is to litigate the hell out of these claims.<br /><br />Jeez! Don't they teach you anything in law school?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-39466674030874418762011-12-25T02:58:20.838-08:002011-12-25T02:58:20.838-08:00"you have constructed a strawman by incessant..."you have constructed a strawman by incessantly talking about Harvard"<br /><br />What was the tuition at New York Law School in 1996?nycnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-21115031533606621372011-12-23T20:54:52.774-08:002011-12-23T20:54:52.774-08:00I think there is more than one NYC. Originally a p...I think there is more than one NYC. Originally a poster calling himself NYC identified himself as a junior academic in NYC. That guy made generally reasonable comments, whether you agreed with them or not. Since that time, at least one other person appears to have identified him/herself as "NYC" and has made frankly strange comments best described as troll-like. In short, yes, I think we are being trolled here, by this "NYC."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-91707753260421866262011-12-23T19:23:28.542-08:002011-12-23T19:23:28.542-08:00NYC,
Like most of the naysayers and Leiter de...NYC,<br /><br /> Like most of the naysayers and Leiter defenders that show up here, you have constructed a strawman by incessantly talking about Harvard. If you reread this thread in its entirety, you will notice that YOU were the one who raised the topic of Harvard in your post at 6:49 PM. All discussion of Harvard flowed from your first mention of it. LawProf never mentioned Harvard in his post, nor did any commenter - until you did. Nice try. Nice diversion.<br /><br /> Let's talk turkey about the increase in public law school tuition over the last 15 years at state flagships - UVA, Ohio, Michigan, Texas, Colorado, Washington, Boalt Hall. There is no question that these increases have oustripped inflation by any measure - CPI or otherwise.<br /><br /> Let's get back on topic here....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-59877003255093055712011-12-23T17:08:07.020-08:002011-12-23T17:08:07.020-08:00"inflation-adjusted of course"
i.e. you..."inflation-adjusted of course"<br /><br />i.e. you are assuming your conclusion.<br /><br />If you use a shadowstats inflation calculator, Harvard tuition has actually gone down a bit.<br /><br />How is this possible? The government cooks the books a bit when calculating the CPI. Actual inflation is higher than the official rates and everyone knows it. <br /><br />It would be more accurate to say that tuition, health insurance premiums, and gasoline have risen in price faster than other goods and services. Well duh.nycnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-69487897285627023842011-12-23T15:54:45.805-08:002011-12-23T15:54:45.805-08:00The only golden age talk is coming from the voices...The only golden age talk is coming from the voices in NYC's head. To say that things are a lot worse for lawyers they were 25 years ago isn't to say they were great then.LawProfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-35954469109388247522011-12-23T15:45:52.446-08:002011-12-23T15:45:52.446-08:00I think nyc is a troll -- having jumped through a ...I think nyc is a troll -- having jumped through a lot of hoops myself, I can say that.<br /><br />That said, I agree that the Golden Age talk is overdone. In the winter of 1987, I went to ask a judge I knew to write me a recommendation letter for law school. He gave me a lecture about the insane amount of debt students were taking on. (I, of course, thought I'd be different, and so ignored him.)<br /><br />CCAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-9321958923148795722011-12-23T14:35:52.206-08:002011-12-23T14:35:52.206-08:00If there is a glut of lawyers, doesn't that sh...If there is a glut of lawyers, doesn't that show that law schools are charging too little, not too much? Or is the demand curve for law school seats so totally inelastic that it doesn't matter how much they charge?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-8742951072684729722011-12-23T11:23:54.352-08:002011-12-23T11:23:54.352-08:00Give nyc his due. He may only be employed by a thi...Give nyc his due. He may only be employed by a third tier toilet, but he has jumped through a lot of hoops.Lois Turnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04940132718084602679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-35144895080361635192011-12-23T10:46:30.460-08:002011-12-23T10:46:30.460-08:00nyc, the point is you don't teach at harvard l...nyc, the point is you don't teach at harvard law. you teach somewhere with a much lower ratio of value / tuition.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-61629609729240794812011-12-23T10:41:40.649-08:002011-12-23T10:41:40.649-08:00Food is cheaper today than it was 15 years ago. Na...Food is cheaper today than it was 15 years ago. Nationally, the price of housing has returned to mid-1990s levels (inflation-adjusted of course). I don't know about nice neighborhoods within 25 miles of NYC specifically. Over the past 20 years law school tuition has gone up four times faster than college tuition.LawProfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-12801387136209511782011-12-23T10:35:59.865-08:002011-12-23T10:35:59.865-08:00"two and a half times faster than the average..."two and a half times faster than the average prices of goods and services in general"<br /><br />Would the "average prices of goods and services" include such luxuries as gasoline, food, the cost of a house in a nice neighborhood within 25 miles of New York, and college tuition?nycnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-74560622664117504482011-12-23T09:09:58.310-08:002011-12-23T09:09:58.310-08:00I still can't figure out if NYC is a very subt...I still can't figure out if NYC is a very subtle troll but for anybody who's taking what he's saying seriously:<br /> <br />(1) Over the past 15 years the price of HLS tuition has gone up two and a half times faster than the average prices of goods and services in general. The fact that gasoline prices have gone up even faster is an irrelevant distraction.<br /><br />(2) The real problem with legal education isn't that HLS tuition has gone up much faster than inflation -- it's that the tuition of law schools at every level has gone up just as fast as HLS tuition (and this isn't a coincidence).LawProfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-4815975098201155742011-12-23T08:48:26.754-08:002011-12-23T08:48:26.754-08:00"nyc, what did I tell you about harvard?"..."nyc, what did I tell you about harvard?"<br /><br />Is that the best rebuttal you can manage?nycnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-49563051367153746772011-12-23T08:31:07.617-08:002011-12-23T08:31:07.617-08:00nyc, what did I tell you about harvard?nyc, what did I tell you about harvard?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-43885341211331652202011-12-23T08:23:42.612-08:002011-12-23T08:23:42.612-08:00"According to this, Harvard Law's tuition..."According to this, Harvard Law's tuition for 1996-97 was $21,700. Today, it's $47,600"<br /><br />According to a chart I found, gasoline went from approximately $1.40 a gallon in 1996 to approximately $3.40 now. That's a doubling plus 42 percent.<br /><br />By contrast, Harvard tuition increased by a doubling and only 19 percent. 42 is a lot bigger than 19, and that ignores the fact that financial aid and loan repayment programs are generally not available for gasoline.nycnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-73053059112063572422011-12-23T08:03:25.227-08:002011-12-23T08:03:25.227-08:00one other thing, "nyc." you don't te...one other thing, "nyc." you don't teach at harvard so don't sully their name. use pace or touro or whatever TTT employs you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-14316942273911679232011-12-23T08:01:35.426-08:002011-12-23T08:01:35.426-08:00"I bet that the price of gasoline has gone up..."I bet that the price of gasoline has gone up more over the past 15 years than the tuition at top law schools like Harvard or BC."<br /><br />Are you seriously comparing the utility of gasoline to the utility of a legal education? One is necessary to get you from A to B. The other leaves you at A, except with a ton of debt and a black mark on your resume.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-63893639352705433222011-12-23T07:37:18.658-08:002011-12-23T07:37:18.658-08:00According to this, Harvard Law's tuition for 1...According to <a href="http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1996/03.14/GraduateSchools.html" rel="nofollow">this</a>, Harvard Law's tuition for 1996-97 was $21,700. Today, it's <a href="http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/basics/cost/budget.html" rel="nofollow">$47,600</a> (with an estimated yearly cost of attendance at $72,600).<br /><br />Using the CPI inflation calculator provided by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, $21,700 in 1996 had the same buying power as $31,288 today, making HLS' tuition increase 150+% greater than the average rate of inflation would cause over the same duration. Maybe gasoline beats that, but there are probably very few consumer goods or services that do if the CPI is any indication.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02282378622563612578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-74197524893832117442011-12-23T06:49:15.256-08:002011-12-23T06:49:15.256-08:00There's this fantasy that there was some idyll...There's this fantasy that there was some idyllic law schhol Garden of Eden when tuition (and student loan debt) were nominal; jobs were plenty and salaries high.<br /><br />I bet that the price of gasoline has gone up more over the past 15 years than the tuition at top law schools like Harvard or BC.nycnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-81575473316033358432011-12-23T06:42:42.405-08:002011-12-23T06:42:42.405-08:00I've heard of this limit, but I don't thin...I've heard of this limit, but I don't think it exists post GRAD PLUS. Can anyone confirm?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-42507774220089912862011-12-23T01:30:10.127-08:002011-12-23T01:30:10.127-08:00@10:00 - there actually is a limit you can get fro...@10:00 - there actually is a limit you can get from the federal govt in student loans over your lifetime. Not that that changes your argument much...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com