tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post1715746161520410001..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: The crashLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger126125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-5243042482941318872012-08-02T13:06:15.540-07:002012-08-02T13:06:15.540-07:00MacK: "For Cooley that is a threat of a stra...MacK: "For Cooley that is a threat of a straight $37k in revenue loss, and real loss if marginal cost is say 10% (which it probably is) of $33k. The smart thing for Cooley to do would be to say - we will cut your tuition to marginal cost plus a small margin - say $5-7k - certainly a 50% cut makes sense. "<br /><br />(sorry if somebody has already covered this)<br /><br />No, the smart thing for Cooley to do would be to tell that student to STFU.<br /><br />If they grant a cut to one, it's unlikely that he/she won't boast about what they did, and then the dam breaks................Barry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-84402616665497388122012-07-05T09:01:32.236-07:002012-07-05T09:01:32.236-07:00LawProf:
Your blog is great and I'd like to s...LawProf:<br /><br />Your blog is great and I'd like to see more of the same. Obviously, it's having an effect as evidenced by fewer law school applicants.<br /><br />The only thing I'd like to see is taking on the ridiculous race argument by schools like Cooley, IF they keep it up. I.e. if you want to shut down our law school scam then you must be racist. Your new "Equal Opportunity" post is good.<br /><br />I also liked the idea of having a list of grievances. Maybe you could at least categorize your posts to keep track of certain topics. <br /><br />Regardless, your blog is great and doesn't need to be changed much, if at all. <br /><br />To the commenters asking for "solutions" for legal academia... I think we need to get the word out to prospective students first. Legal academia will only change and figure out "solutions" when reduced revenue forces them to do so. <br /><br />To the commentor calling you a guilty Nazi asking to be forgiven for your sins... I love the fact that you are fighting this system from the inside. I'm sure you have been ostracized from your colleagues and threatened with your job. I can't blame you for taking advantage of the system, even if you disagree with it. (I think IBR and PSLF are both terrible programs but I'm still enrolled in them). <br /><br />As bad as legal academics are, they aren't murdering 6 million people based on their religious views. The Nazi comparison is ignorant and insulting. <br /><br />Please keep up the great work LawProf. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-82453623332943652702012-07-04T16:46:43.917-07:002012-07-04T16:46:43.917-07:00Hey, are there any Cooley grads out there with exp...Hey, are there any Cooley grads out there with experience as a business person that are dissatisfied with anything that Cooley has been doing?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-42745845465628802692012-07-04T14:15:52.062-07:002012-07-04T14:15:52.062-07:00I"m obviously late to the action but who put ...I"m obviously late to the action but who put the spurs to the Cooley grad and sent him into low earth orbit?<br /><br />A couple of mild prods sent him right off the launching pad two or three different times! Paragraph upon paragraph of indignant sputtering.<br /><br />Congrats to the trolls...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-49800285190731885652012-07-04T14:00:47.418-07:002012-07-04T14:00:47.418-07:001:45. Iguess it depends upon what you mean by non-...1:45. Iguess it depends upon what you mean by non-profit !Law Office Computinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16741029082116341276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-70595144151430114142012-07-04T13:45:18.245-07:002012-07-04T13:45:18.245-07:00How many law schools are actually organized as non...How many law schools are actually organized as non-profits?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-72269005349353741942012-07-04T11:40:06.244-07:002012-07-04T11:40:06.244-07:008:51 here.
@11:05
Meow. Put your claws back in a...8:51 here.<br /><br />@11:05<br />Meow. Put your claws back in and no, it doesn't make you superior by implying anonymously on a board that I work at a car wash because I went to Cooley. Get some real self-esteem and actually do some real analysis. You can start by reading Law Prof's actual entry.<br /><br />Your quote:<br />"if what Cooley is selling "isn't worth anything", then why are free buyers in a free market paying tens of thousands of dollars for it?"<br /><br />Did you read Law Prof's entry, 11:05, where it stated clearly that admissions at Cooley dropped by 28%? <br /><br />I'll make it easier for you and quote the relevant part, since you obviously didn't catch the implications:<br />"Applications to law school have turned abruptly down across the nation...<br />This lowering of standards exacerbates the challenge we face in filling our classes at Cooley when applications decline. This year’s three incoming classes declined in enrollment by about 28%, leading to an 8% decline in total enrollment."<br /><br />Translation of the above for you, 11:05, since you missed it the first time around: Cooley is having trouble filling its classes due to a decline in applications. In other words, Cooley has suffered a significant drop in 'free buyers in a free market' who are willing to pay Cooley's prices. <br /><br />Try, 11:05, in the future, to keep words like 'imbecile,' 'you work at a car wash' and other name-calling out of your future posts. Certainly, you don't think they enhance your credibility, do you? You come across as extremely insecure when you can't even respond to my post with a coherent argument and instead have to respond with immature juvenile name-calling. I'm sure you have more self-esteem in there somewhere - why don't you try to find it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-57283768781047605992012-07-04T11:29:10.690-07:002012-07-04T11:29:10.690-07:00Non-profits routinely pay HUGE salaries...so there...Non-profits routinely pay HUGE salaries...so there is no "profit" left after the enormous salaries, perquisites, and other expenses are paid.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-31102977015139850612012-07-04T11:11:57.735-07:002012-07-04T11:11:57.735-07:00Thought Cooley and other LS were non-profit...does...Thought Cooley and other LS were non-profit...doesn't that imply that they are not in it for the money?????<br /><br />Yeah, right.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-40970713162500625712012-07-04T11:06:40.491-07:002012-07-04T11:06:40.491-07:00"Cooley is free to charge as high a price as ..."Cooley is free to charge as high a price as it wants for what it sells."<br /><br />Not when the value of what it sells isn't worth anything, buddy. It's called the free market - you've heard of that one, right?"<br /><br />Actually, you both are wrong. There is nothing "free" about a market when the government is supplying the grease to the wheels in the form of student loans.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-11055625698775638572012-07-04T11:05:12.569-07:002012-07-04T11:05:12.569-07:00@ 8:51am - seriously, MR. BUSINESS PERSON, what ki...@ 8:51am - seriously, MR. BUSINESS PERSON, what kind of an imbecile are you? 4:08am is completely correct: if what Cooley is selling "isn't worth anything", then why are free buyers in a free market paying tens of thousands of dollars for it?<br /><br />And what could be less relevant than your years of business experience and what you would have done if you were Cooley. Cooley already has your money and they've been making millions of dollars for decades!<br /><br />Thanks for providing yet another example of a comprehensive Cooley DB! Now back to your job at the car wash...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-1743167613109439232012-07-04T08:51:47.368-07:002012-07-04T08:51:47.368-07:001:43 here.
@ 4:08:
"Cooley is free to charge...1:43 here.<br /><br />@ 4:08:<br />"Cooley is free to charge as high a price as it wants for what it sells."<br /><br />Not when the value of what it sells isn't worth anything, buddy. It's called the free market - you've heard of that one, right? And guess what, continually making decisions that tarnishes the value of your reputation and therefore hurts your future survival isn't considered the best future plan, even if it brings in a soon-to-end profit in the short-term.<br /><br />As for my umbrage at being contacted by a 'mere dean' and not the president of the school after spending well over $50,000 at the school - let me guess, you're not a business person are you? A professor who teaches Environmental Law Theory without ever having practiced Environmental Law in your life, maybe? As I indicated, as a former business person with years of experience in the business world, if a client of mine who had spent that kind of money contacted me to indicate some concerns he or she had about my business model and the future feasibility of my business, you better believe that as president of an organization, I would talk to him or her. It's called business and for edification, you might want to take some time to learn a little bit about how it works in the real world.<br /><br />@2:26:<br />I have to disagree that Cooley's reputation never mattered. At first, upon graduating, I actually was proud of my alma mater and the practical skills I had learned from it and I actually got positive comments about it during interviews when I brought it up. Now, I go to great lengths to avoid mentioning the school I graduated from. I simply answer 'Michigan' when asked where I went to school and change the subject. Quite frankly, I am tired of all the Cooley shenanigans that are constantly getting them in the papers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-48616455166546538452012-07-04T08:46:02.510-07:002012-07-04T08:46:02.510-07:00To 5.23 You are absolutely right that even the T5...To 5.23 You are absolutely right that even the T5 and T3 can turn into disaster. However, much of this disaster occurs as people fall off the pipeline as they get older. We do not have the numbers except 9 months after graduation. The median numbers and unemployed/ underemployed category would be worse 20 years out and much worse after 30 years. Think about it - you graduate from law school at age 26 and want to work for 40 years. That is not possible for many T5 grads given the overcrowded nature of the profession and the up or out policies of many large law firms that date back to days when the legal job market was better than now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-89276452867552444762012-07-04T05:23:05.468-07:002012-07-04T05:23:05.468-07:00One of the problems is that law school is a scam f...One of the problems is that law school is a scam for most students, even those who graduate Phi Beta Kappa from prestigious undergrads, get into top 20 law schools, and graduate law school with a respectable B+ average and pass the bar. Even these students end up with tons of debt and no job (or no job that they couldn't have gotten anyway with their BA). It's not just the bottom tier schools or the students who couldn't handle the pressure, almost everyone who's affected by the scam. I'd love to hear more stories about respectable T1 schools and how bad they are.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-47921478128705874362012-07-04T05:04:54.515-07:002012-07-04T05:04:54.515-07:00@11:02
If someone made a simple list of maybe a d...@11:02<br /><br />If someone made a simple list of maybe a dozen aspects of the overall problem popularly, or rather colloquially known as "The Law School Scam" then I might fall under one or two items on that list, and I think you will agree.<br /><br />For instance: Item 5-Don;t admit dummies like painterguy to law school, and item 7-make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy and also give a refund to everyuone that has ever successfully paid off a student loan (neither the former or the latter is ever going to happen btw :)<br /><br />But anyway.... for what it is worth... I share my story.<br /><br />Some time ago I saw a law review article by a Law Professor that I think was entitled: "Off The Grid", and the article sort of speculated about what happens to the law grads that never pass the bar. I think the Prof. concluded, and in very dense legal prose, that they disappear over the top of a Tibetan mountain and hang out with Father Perrault in Shangri-la.<br /><br />I also recall speaking with a Corporate lawyer who was a Columbia grad that said she had a friend that took the Bar Exam nine times. She didn't say what school that person went to or if he or she ever passed.<br /><br />And so on.<br /><br />It ain't me, but I'm sure the perfect, apple cheeked poster person must be out there who will be a good match for all items on the list that I speak of.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-48774090475659446412012-07-04T04:08:40.170-07:002012-07-04T04:08:40.170-07:00@ 1:43am ==> "My God, have you no compassi...@ 1:43am ==> "My God, have you no compassion whatsoever?"<br /><br />You're kidding, right? <br /><br />Cooley is free to charge as high a price as it wants for what it sells.<br /><br />The umbrage you took at being contacted by a mere dean and not Cooley's president was particularly hysterical - thanks for your hilarious comment!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-267717234632830322012-07-04T02:26:47.924-07:002012-07-04T02:26:47.924-07:00@ 1:43 AM
Cooley's reputation never mattered ...@ 1:43 AM<br /><br />Cooley's reputation never mattered and it does not care about the job prospects, much less the reputations, of its former/current/future students.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-39460508649931555242012-07-04T01:43:28.508-07:002012-07-04T01:43:28.508-07:00I would like to address President LeDuc, since I ...I would like to address President LeDuc, since I am supposing that Cooley frequently polices the boards.<br /><br />President LeDuc's comment:<br />"This lowering of standards exacerbates the challenge we face in filling our classes at Cooley when applications decline. This year’s three incoming classes declined in enrollment by about 28%, leading to an 8% decline in total enrollment."<br /><br />Dear President LeDuc:<br /><br />As a Cooley graduate, I wrote you and a few select deans in 2010 with my concerns, at the time, about the lack of employment options for Cooley graduates. I was greatly alarmed at the trend I was seeing of NUMEROUS recent Cooley grads working in low-paying and retail positions. I was so concerned by this that I outlined some of the low-paying and retail jobs held by several of Cooley's recent grads whose situations I was familiar with and I indicated my concern for what that might mean for the reputation and future of the school. In fact, I predicted the harm to the school's reputation if it did not IMMEDIATELY address this situation, since I could only imagine how successful a law school could continue to be if it established a reputation for having its graduates working in retail after graduation.<br /><br />I received a reply from one Dean (not President LeDuc), who nicely offered to meet w/ me, misunderstanding, however, that I was not writing about my own personal situation but about a frequent trend that was alarming. I never received a reply from the President of the school which astounded me, given that I had a business background and if a former client of mine who had spent a substantial amount of money at my business wrote to me to suggest changes to my business model to make it more successful for future clients, you better believe I would respond, and I would probably have something like 'thanks' in my reply. <br /><br />My concerns, however, did not compel a response from the school's president. Now, I have had to watch while the value of my degree (yes, everyone, my degree did once have value) has plummeted because the school did not appreciate, as it should have, the importance of successful graduate job outcomes on its reputation and future. Instead, the school emphasized increasing enrollment, opening a campus in Florida, while giving less thought than what was needed to what would happen to the school's reputation when those graduates couldn't find jobs. It emphasized (and was willing to pay a handsome sum for) placing its name on a local stadium to improve its reputation, particularly in the Lansing community, when that money would have been much better spent on programs that improved job prospects for its graduates and thereby improved its national reputation - something of utmost importance when so many students are from out-of-state.<br /><br />Now, Cooley, your reputation is absolutely in tatters and you've dragged the reputations and job chances of so many of your graduates down with it. By not realizing how much your own success was in sync with and dependent upon the employment success of your own graduates, you have so greatly tarnished your own reputation that so many now question whether you even have a future. And your response is to raise the tuition on current attendees to make up for lost revenue due to a loss in reputation due to YOUR own mistakes? I am completely appalled that the leadership of the school has chosen to take this tactic. I can only hope that graduate after graduate as well as many others from the legal community will let the school know that this is an unacceptable response. (Simply put, it is absolutely irresponsible to raise tuition given the job outcomes many of your graduates are facing! My God, have you no compassion whatsoever?) And while everyone is at it letting the school know his or her opinion, also let the school's current leadership know how unimpressed you are with its recent decisions and the resultant drastic diminuition to the school's reputation that they have caused. I am speechless.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-43799857617092672082012-07-04T00:58:39.602-07:002012-07-04T00:58:39.602-07:00JULY 3, 2012 8:59 PM here,
Has it been publicly s...JULY 3, 2012 8:59 PM here,<br /><br />Has it been publicly stated that Chicago or Columbia Law will be reducing their class size such that they need to take in lesser qualified transfers? Here it says UChicago is NOT changing up its 1L class size, so I'm trying to figure out why the transfer students are covering the supposed 1L revenue gap (unless that article is outdated and the dean changed his mind)<br /><br />http://deansblog.law.northwestern.edu//?s=schillAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-23674255370682819232012-07-04T00:10:40.546-07:002012-07-04T00:10:40.546-07:00Why go to Cooley when the same GPA/LSAT circa 2012...Why go to Cooley when the same GPA/LSAT circa 2012 will get you into the University of San Diego School of Law (or, worse case scenario, Cal Western). Beautiful city, beautiful women, surfing, c'mon how can you beat that. Michigan on the other hand... <br /><br />The Galaxy's a pretty barren and desolate place when you get right down to it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-71952382827946708782012-07-03T23:02:24.242-07:002012-07-03T23:02:24.242-07:00Painterguy highlights that -
1) People who should...Painterguy highlights that -<br /><br />1) People who should never have gone to US law schools are going.<br /><br />2) The lack of bankruptcy protection in the US means that student debt can balloon to massive proportions.<br /><br />The thing is, he's become the go-to guy for journalists writing on this subject when really he's not representative of why this issue has become a full-blown crisis.Gilman Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06607416440240634159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-76615951117116201802012-07-03T21:49:05.047-07:002012-07-03T21:49:05.047-07:00#TEAMNANDO#TEAMNANDOAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-71339969186609133132012-07-03T21:45:31.951-07:002012-07-03T21:45:31.951-07:00People who are forced to go? They should not if it...People who are forced to go? They should not if it's a bad deal for them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-12530979398069291222012-07-03T21:35:02.922-07:002012-07-03T21:35:02.922-07:008:59,
I think that's the point. Stacking 2L c...8:59,<br />I think that's the point. Stacking 2L classes with less desirable candidates to increase revenue while not taking a hit to USNWR ranking.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-85541025501251298552012-07-03T20:59:22.496-07:002012-07-03T20:59:22.496-07:00How is that top 5 school gaming the system by offe...How is that top 5 school gaming the system by offering "scholarships" for transfer students? I am guessing that the incoming 2Ls' LSAT/GPA combos do not matter for USNWR ranking purposes and the transfer students' tuition revenue would be to offset any future reduction in 1L class sizes (where the LSAT/GPA combos do matter)?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com