tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post1306901245723671908..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: The bubbleLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger98125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-9369288507325345822012-06-09T12:04:27.716-07:002012-06-09T12:04:27.716-07:00Lawprof: I'm giving up on trying to warn peopl...Lawprof: I'm giving up on trying to warn people. <br /><br /> On TLS a recent post stated that "$270, 000 in non-dischargeable debt is not a death sentence or anything close to it for most people. And IBR obviates most of that concern entirely."<br /><br /> <br />That poster justifies his statement with the idea that most law students are upper-middle class who can just move in with their parents until they get back on track. Note: the writer of that quote is a very respected TLS poster, not a random troll. <br /><br />( Not sure that is a reasonable assumption. I thought many people were going to law school because there are no other jobs. )<br /><br />The quote is from a thread about repaying $210,000 in debt, it started out with a foolish question but ended up in a debate. I think the debate shows how entrenched OLs and law students are in justifying going to law school. <br /><br /> You might be interested in reading this thread:<br />http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=184470&start=250#p5576270<br /><br /><br />My honest feeling is that IBR is going to be a huge block in any effort for reform. I think it will take a number of people who went to top schools and who are unemployed or struggling to come forward. Until that happens, people are not going to understand the day to day cost.<br /><br />I'm lucky - I have no debt. I'm going to live with my Mom in our apartment in the city and work at a biglaw firm in the fall. I would never have taken on the debt of these people, and I can live rent free in Manhattan! I know how expensive NYC is to live in. <br /><br />I think these students are making a huge mistake. But there seems to be no way to reach them. So I am going to stop wasting my time. Hopefully we will get better weather so I can enjoy my summer instead of posting online.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-17588125163112871332012-06-05T09:21:21.545-07:002012-06-05T09:21:21.545-07:00In the mists of my past, I was in a Christian fell...In the mists of my past, I was in a Christian fellowship and attended an evangelical church.<br /><br />During meetings, people used to talk about "saving souls." I never quite understood it, and I'm not sure I ever "saved" a soul.<br /><br />However, in the past year, I've talked two of my students out of applying to law schools. (In the schools in which I have been teaching, not many students express interest in it.) Does that count as "God's work?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-50845069796147077172012-06-05T07:02:03.264-07:002012-06-05T07:02:03.264-07:00@ 6:22 AM, June 5: "Forgiving that interest ...@ 6:22 AM, June 5: <i>"Forgiving that interest money doesn't screw the taxpayer out of anything, because it's just hypothetical "profit" that the taxpayer "expected" to make off the loan."</i><br /><br />Really? I'm not so sure about that, but I'm also not an econ type. But just thinking out loud - that original amount borrowed was essentially paid at once to the school (i.e., over a ~ 2.5 year period). That money costs the government <b>something</b>, doesn't it? I.e., either it is borrowed from somewhere else (at an interest rate), or if the money is already thought to have been "owned" by the gummint, then this is money that the gummint cannot collect interest on elsewhere.<br /><br />To say that the interest forgiven 20-odd years later is not more than lost hypothetical profit cannot be true, IMHO.I_have_a_namehttp://www.yahoo.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-61116711408993302962012-06-05T06:22:46.237-07:002012-06-05T06:22:46.237-07:007:48, the point I was trying, however inarticulate...7:48, the point I was trying, however inarticulately, to make was that after someone pays on a loan for 20 years, in many cases that person has already paid the amount he/she originally borrowed. What remains is often just capitalized interest. Forgiving that interest money doesn't screw the taxpayer out of anything, because it's just hypothetical "profit" that the taxpayer "expected" to make off the loan. And I would argue that the notion that the government should be profiting off student loans is illegitimate and offensive in a democratic society. You're right about the law schools being the ultimate beneficiaries, getting their money up front with no risk and laughing all the way to the bank.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-21792357343537289052012-06-05T06:04:49.944-07:002012-06-05T06:04:49.944-07:00It's true. There is wayyy too much focus on pr...It's true. There is wayyy too much focus on private student loans at the expensive of government loans, but hey -- the government writes the rules so I guess they get a free pass.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-42924079914768800702012-06-05T04:50:44.824-07:002012-06-05T04:50:44.824-07:00"The Dodd-Frank Act requires a formal report ..."The Dodd-Frank Act requires a formal report on the private student loan market. But the student loan problem cannot be understood without equally examining government student loans: The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau needs absolutely to include government student loans in its report, which otherwise would be obviously partial and incomplete.<br /> <br />“If these borrowers are so overleveraged that it carries throughout their entire adult life, this is a big problem,” a Consumer Financial Protection Bureau officer has pronounced. His bureau needs immediately to get busy making sure that the Department of Education is not saddling students with unpayable debt for life."<br /><br /><br />http://blog.american.com/2012/03/protecting-vulnerable-consumers-from-the-government-moneylender/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-15634604951758368492012-06-05T04:44:48.301-07:002012-06-05T04:44:48.301-07:00Forbes. 17 hrs. ago:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/...Forbes. 17 hrs. ago:<br /><br />http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2012/06/04/student-loan-bubble-sets-up-to-be-subprime-disaster-part-deux/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-64296627625801020182012-06-05T03:16:04.620-07:002012-06-05T03:16:04.620-07:00So the real median is about 55k? Confused as to w...So the real median is about 55k? Confused as to why everyone is making a big deal of a 5k discrepancy...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-10695140289046514372012-06-05T00:00:10.932-07:002012-06-05T00:00:10.932-07:00Are you aware that after the housing bubble collap...Are you aware that after the housing bubble collapse and stock market crash, student loan default is next wave to start a new economic recession? Student loan now exceeds credit card debt. Student loan defaults are at an all time high with vast majority either getting deferment or defaulting. This will have a spiraling effect towards the already weak economy. It appears nobody is aware of this ticking time bomb. So far the only response of major economic leaders is "do any job, if you can't find real job". But that can't stop this next wave of disaster, can it?Personal Injury Attorney Floridahttp://www.maltezoslaw.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-59536692365994476112012-06-04T23:19:02.619-07:002012-06-04T23:19:02.619-07:00Whether or not taxpayers are getting "screwed...Whether or not taxpayers are getting "screwed" by student loans depends on whether:<br /><br />Total Repaid >= Total Lent * (1+interest)<br />where interest should be calculated as the interest rate of T-bonds only (no justification for the govt expecting higher interest) with no capitalize interest, no penalities, just straight up interest over time<br /><br />I suspect that even with the higher ed scam, govt loans are still "profitable" when you calculate the total numbers as above.<br /><br />Of course with tuition rising out of control, the balance is tilting towards the govt eventually losing money unless tuition price increases slow to below inflation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-66632604130764155122012-06-04T23:08:47.667-07:002012-06-04T23:08:47.667-07:00Get a job..........lets see.......
oh here is a n...Get a job..........lets see.......<br /><br />oh here is a nice job. Actually it is a sales job, though you might not understand that "Account Manager" really means "Salesman"<br /><br />And notice towards the bottom that even for this sales job they run a credit check.<br /><br />If the student loan fucks up your credit, you will be in the same boat as having failed a drug test and you won't even be able to get a job in sales.<br /><br />But take a gander:<br /><br />http://www.job.com/my.job/search/page=jobview/pt=2/key=124921832/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-26832096543505804092012-06-04T22:57:55.182-07:002012-06-04T22:57:55.182-07:00Get a job. Let's see.........
Here is a field...Get a job. Let's see.........<br /><br />Here is a field for which a JD is always in demand:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/user/jtiano?v=Z1dC-TsYQjY<br /><br />Or, try this field. As Vince Lombardi said: "Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu2T8VCAlP8<br /><br />Or this:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW60ibRWlY0<br /><br />Or this:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1TzUxKvjwY<br /><br />Or this:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFuZUWOzw58&feature=relmfu<br /><br />Better yet, get aboard the nearest time machine and start life over again.<br /><br />And never take out a student loan.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-76584394021185995212012-06-04T22:35:26.406-07:002012-06-04T22:35:26.406-07:00In other news, (Crain's Chicago Business), Nor...In other news, (Crain's Chicago Business), Northwestern and Loyola-Chicago are toying with the idea of reducing class sizes because of the job market.<br /><br />Leave it to the dean of JMLS-Chicago to come out with an ostrich head-in-sand comment that if people want to go to law school, why should they be stopped.....(hint, dean's make good salaries when more students, errr grist for the mill apply for financial doom)<br /><br />http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20120602/ISSUE01/306029929/northwestern-loyola-law-schools-eye-cutting-class-sizeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-70154160493680541922012-06-04T20:59:31.174-07:002012-06-04T20:59:31.174-07:00Holy shit 8:22, have you told the media?Holy shit 8:22, have you told the media?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-16163416787456270742012-06-04T20:22:14.083-07:002012-06-04T20:22:14.083-07:00I'm not sure Poor Grad has it right, because t...I'm not sure Poor Grad has it right, because the more you pay off a loan, the lower the amount of interest you pay, and most of the money paid cuts into the principal. But there is another way to note how the taxpayer may not necessarily be screwed if some of the law students cannot pay back the loans.<br /><br />However, this depends on the interest accumulated.<br /><br />Remember, ONLY the principal is payed to the schools. The lender makes money on THE INTEREST.<br /><br />Lets look at the example from this Campos post, and say two people have to pay $255,143 total for law school.<br /><br />Person #1: Pays the loan off on a 25 year plan = $571,496 total payed<br /><br />Person #2: Pays $0. Flees the country to Brazil.<br /><br />The lender still makes a $61,000 profit on the two loans, when one person has not payed at all!!!!!<br /><br />This is the secret to how the lender makes money from these loans.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-22101432226233104632012-06-04T19:48:58.569-07:002012-06-04T19:48:58.569-07:007:39, what does the point you raise about varying ...7:39, what does the point you raise about varying interest rates (which is a good one) have to do with IBR screwing the taxpayers out of money? Law schools currently charge outrageous sums for law degrees, which they get straight from taxpayers, and which in many cases won't be paid back in full.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-76544639783250099702012-06-04T19:43:47.993-07:002012-06-04T19:43:47.993-07:00PoorGrad, I'm fairly certain that does not &qu...PoorGrad, I'm fairly certain that does not "typically" happen to most grads by the time they are 5 years out of law school. There is barely any work to go around.<br /><br />As for loans and IBR, many law grads simply aren't paying a substantial portion of their debt.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-83911360321502025662012-06-04T19:39:18.671-07:002012-06-04T19:39:18.671-07:00For all those who think any sort of debt forgivene...For all those who think any sort of debt forgiveness (or interest forgiveness) would "screw" the taxpayer, how do you rationalize the fact that people with existing student loan balances today are paying all sorts of different interest rates on that debt? Ranging from 2 percent all the way up to 8 percent, and everywhere in between? Would making the interest on all loans, say, 2 percent, be "screwing" the taxpayer, and if so, out of what, exactly? There's no logical justification why someone who graduated in 2001 has to pay 6 percent and someone who graduated in 2010 has to pay 3 percent, on government-issued loans. No justification at all. It's basically just usury.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-28986332772590977572012-06-04T19:36:23.547-07:002012-06-04T19:36:23.547-07:00I have a friend who has just completed his first y...I have a friend who has just completed his first year at GW Law with a 3.0 GPA. I do not know if he is paying full sticker, but in the absence of any strong family connections, I cannot imagine a scenario where it would make sense for him to continue. I told him to drop out immediately, but he wasn't listening. I can't seem to get through to him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-20972390571006366042012-06-04T18:48:13.257-07:002012-06-04T18:48:13.257-07:00Nice to read someone is benefiting from IBR repaym...Nice to read someone is benefiting from IBR repayment schedule. IBR is not a good solution for those with higher incomes,unless they work for the government, so I find it useless. <br /><br />Too much focus on these comments are about the initial law graduate salary. I find initial salary to be only a small part of the picture---what matters is the average salary per law graduate on a 5 year out basis. Typically what happens is 1-2 years out those without connections or as much luck will start small, and then upon gaining real legal skills will build up to a decent rate.<br /> <br />Another comment is about loans. I find the closer I am to repaying off my loans, the more I can say by the time you get to the 50 to 75% total student loan payoff mark the initial principal is nearly paid and the remaining debt is to service the interest charges. So if someone is paying a substantial portion of the debt, then the taxpayer doesn't get screwed.PoorGradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06348929998247512034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-38678518221008339432012-06-04T16:54:56.930-07:002012-06-04T16:54:56.930-07:00"Unless you are looking at a specialty LLM in..."Unless you are looking at a specialty LLM in corporate taxation from NYU or possibly an LLM in admiralty from Tulane, the rule is do not pick any law program -- including LLM programs -- based on a specialty "field" of law."<br /><br />You stupid idiot. An NYU Tax LLM is worth shit, as is a Tulane admiralty degree.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-70998218501893140692012-06-04T16:51:32.052-07:002012-06-04T16:51:32.052-07:00@ June 4, 2012 2:36 PM
Actually for some its more...@ June 4, 2012 2:36 PM<br /><br />Actually for some its more like:<br /><br />How can I be top 15% and not get accepted to this no-pay internship program that will hopefully lead to a $25k job eventually?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-3804302183959426942012-06-04T16:38:52.156-07:002012-06-04T16:38:52.156-07:004:24:
It is not just the best program scam...scho...4:24:<br /><br />It is not just the best program scam...schools also mention diversity, location (red flag shit heap warning), history of the place, whether the chicks are hot and will put out on the first date, etc....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-41295196253565602272012-06-04T16:37:29.393-07:002012-06-04T16:37:29.393-07:004:27,
Unless you are looking at a specialty LLM i...4:27,<br /><br />Unless you are looking at a specialty LLM in corporate taxation from NYU or possibly an LLM in admiralty from Tulane, the rule is do not pick any law program -- including LLM programs -- based on a specialty "field" of law.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-56445479521057503222012-06-04T16:27:12.798-07:002012-06-04T16:27:12.798-07:00"This is how we end up where we are. With idi..."This is how we end up where we are. With idiots asking other idiots what school has the best Music Entertainment Law program in the South."<br /><br />Perfectly said.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com