tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post114662920635165873..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: ChinatownLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger121125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-14813080406517930552012-10-27T11:26:31.000-07:002012-10-27T11:26:31.000-07:00How does that saying go? One man's terrorist ...How does that saying go? One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-32105373865381056622012-10-24T13:24:16.196-07:002012-10-24T13:24:16.196-07:00So, how do we fight the "shame" factor? ...So, how do we fight the "shame" factor? Students need to know there aren't enough jobs before they start school. People shouldn't feel shame when they've been used and lied to-<br /><br />Law prof: can we address this issue? I know it helped on TLS a little when a few well known posters from T14 schools openly posted about getting no offered , one by Winston.<br /><br />But unknowns who show up and post about their suffering in the job market get mocked and called trolls.<br /><br /><br />People still want to hold fast to the idea that not getting a job is the fault of the individual, not the fault of the market.<br /><br />Someone on TLS today was saying this year was worse than last year for Penn OCI and about 30% of people are in trouble. Of course someone chimed in with how they have to be better off graduating from Penn than a lower ranked school.<br /><br /><br />People really have a mental block about the reality of the job market.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-75413865336555966082012-10-24T13:14:21.801-07:002012-10-24T13:14:21.801-07:00So how is this professor fighting the scam from hi...So how is this professor fighting the scam from his position at one of the worst scamming trap schools in the country?<br /><br />Would like to know his planAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-53391550837132633512012-10-24T10:38:02.680-07:002012-10-24T10:38:02.680-07:00I had a long chat near the end of my 3L year with ...I had a long chat near the end of my 3L year with a GWU professor who had previously worked in a government agency entwined in the subprime mortgage crisis. When we started talking employment outcomes for 3Ls he sighed. "I know. I almost didn't come back to academia. After spending years fighting scams from the bottom, I know what they look like. I didn't want to benefit from another one. And this is a scam." <br /><br />He then went on to justify his coming back on the grounds that since he knew about it, he could change it. But he bemoaned his colleagues who didn't get it yet -- of which there are many at GWU.Carolynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10691867023839548351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-57685889817748021382012-10-24T10:27:09.270-07:002012-10-24T10:27:09.270-07:00You can create a throwaway account with a created ...You can create a throwaway account with a created email account just for TLS.<br /><br />Once you have an account you can post anonymously in some forums. Only the mods can see the forum name of the poster.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-3246134047243460982012-10-24T09:57:32.960-07:002012-10-24T09:57:32.960-07:00I went to Rutgers Camden. Most professors seemed o...I went to Rutgers Camden. Most professors seemed oblivious to the employment crisis. If they did acknowledge it, it was only to accuse students of not networking enough. And they would say things like "Don't feel like you have to take a BigLaw firm," as if we had a choice. And like an earlier commenter observed, whenever a professor discussed our hypothetical employment, it was always in terms that assumed BigLaw employment: "when you're a first year associate..."<br /><br />Perhaps more frustrating were my fellow students, too many of whom seemed completely oblivious to their employment prospects. <br />I think one way the Rut lulls 3Ls into complacency is by shunting so many grads into state-trial court clerkships. The career service sells these positions hard. In 2011, 42% of the class took clerkships (second only to Yale!). http://camlaw.rutgers.edu/sites/default/files/charts.pdf<br />Of course the school plays down the fact that 92% of the positions are state trial dead ends. And because statistics aren't kept about employment after clerkships, everyone just assumes things will just work out (Think of all the lawyers you're going to meet! No, it's not unethical to network with a lawyer trying a case before your judge.).<br /><br />One question: Does anyone know how NJ law schools put such a large percentage of their graduates in junk clerkships? Do the law schools have a special deal with the court system? Or are lots of schools doing this?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-52795277195162293832012-10-24T09:20:26.610-07:002012-10-24T09:20:26.610-07:00The ABA essentially mandates that law school be ex...The ABA essentially mandates that law school be expensive as hell. Their committees are fielded with the most crooked and corrupt law school participants. They send you magazine renewals as though you ever gave a shit to get them in the first place. No, I don't want an ABA credit card. Any faith put in the ABA to not act as part of the worst of this situation is misplaced in my opinion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-13262004435839509552012-10-24T08:44:15.956-07:002012-10-24T08:44:15.956-07:00Anonymous 11:04, 7:50 here. I guess I should be h...Anonymous 11:04, 7:50 here. I guess I should be happy not to have set the record for most hyperbolic poster ever! Otherwise, I think I have explained why I am not ignoring the crisis, and you have literally no idea whether I am a force for honesty and disclosure or not. We are illustrating, in several ways, the cost of anonymity, and I am contradicting myself as to how to best spend my time, so I will leave it at that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-29773485200542222902012-10-24T08:43:51.938-07:002012-10-24T08:43:51.938-07:00I read the posts on Top Law Schools cited above. P...I read the posts on Top Law Schools cited above. Problem is that one cannot post anonymously on that thread, so no one is going to tell the readers there the true story.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-48426427232982941002012-10-24T08:36:14.713-07:002012-10-24T08:36:14.713-07:00Anonymous 10:58, 7:50 here. Read again. I'm am...Anonymous 10:58, 7:50 here. Read again. I'm among the "some" communicating with students on these issues; I'm not ignorant of the facts and, after actually participating in public fora and repeatedly expressing willingness to meet privately, I start to assume the students aren't ignorant either (or that if they are, I'm not the solution). My point re. hand-wringing was about others, not about your fearless leaders: a world in which every faculty member simulated Campos would be pretty idiotic; "we all" need not spend our time wringing our hands in "pale imitation." <br /><br />As to the value of the training you received, and the potential value I impart, I am sorry that you feel no better prepared for your V10 position than if you had not gone to law school. If true, then of course law school has always been a ripoff. Having sat where you sit, I had a very different opinion -- maybe I lacked your natural facility -- and I am giving a sounder education than I received. But I'm not content with the situation; I just think my time is better spent trying to get better at what students pay for rather than copying this blog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-12844159907403005382012-10-24T08:12:53.117-07:002012-10-24T08:12:53.117-07:00The BigLaw firms are creating the same degree of l...The BigLaw firms are creating the same degree of lawyer surplus as the law schools. <br /><br />In my practice area, younger lawyers, 15 or so years out of law school, are in demand at BigLaw. There is a huge group of former BigLaw lawyers who have more experience and cannot get jobs at BigLaw. Unfortunately, there are not enough other comparable jobs for these lawyers to go to. <br />Unemployment for older lawyers - those who have aged out of BigLaw - is the norm for my peers. <br />The situation gets worse every year because BigLaw blindly trains many more lawyers in each area than the job market can support outside BigLaw and then forces those lawyers out.<br />Most vulnerable are older women and minorities. The problem you have is that older lawyers who are not in top positions are not a "fit" (how many groups of close friends do you know that have people with 10 or more years of age gaps hanging around together), and firing on account of "fit" is perfectly lawful. That has happened to many of my collegues.<br />Because of the well publicized lawyer glut, employers can and do take advantage of the situation. There is always someone young coming from a reasonably top employment situation, and those are the people who are hired. This was not the situation several years ago when the profession was less glutted.<br />Bottom line- law, even from a top school is just like acting. Some people can work when they are old, but realistically, you need to prepare for spending a substantial part of the second half of your career unemployed.<br /><br />Other careers may have problems, but lack of work for the number of bodies available to work is fatal. The legal profession today is all about lack of work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-56406473949165530012012-10-24T06:35:49.344-07:002012-10-24T06:35:49.344-07:00I agree with this = as long as loans are set by th...I agree with this = as long as loans are set by the schools, clueless students will just sign the bottom line. There seems to be no limits to how much people will borrow.<br /><br />And now with IBR, students care even less how much they borrow.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-27562407480300513152012-10-24T06:28:32.986-07:002012-10-24T06:28:32.986-07:00sorry for the wrong apostrophes - been up all nigh...sorry for the wrong apostrophes - been up all night for a deal.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-16522168401103613852012-10-24T06:27:30.456-07:002012-10-24T06:27:30.456-07:00My feeling is that professor's are so smug and...My feeling is that professor's are so smug and confident about their school and it's cachet, that they feel any student who doesn't get a job has a personality problem. I know Columbia feels that you need should be able to magicly waft into a job. If you don't find one you are damaged goods with issues, not their fault.<br /><br />They all think these numbers don't apply to them.<br /><br />And they may really feel that their tuition should be that high because that is what everyone charges.<br /><br />Did you notice the lack of outrage by the one person who posted as to the cost of the education? I'm sure he has the attitude of "sure school is expensive, but the salaries are so high."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-7919317781761759212012-10-23T23:04:39.305-07:002012-10-23T23:04:39.305-07:00OP: you have to be the most intellectually dishone...OP: you have to be the most intellectually dishonest person ever to post on this blog. <br /><br />You fellow professors, instead of being up in arms about the calamity your students -to whom you owe a moral obligation of honesty -want to avoid talking about unpleasantness while your student's lives are ruined. <br /><br />How can you justify that?<br /><br />You are the Chamberlains of the law school reform movement but your timidity and appeasement will not serve you in the end. This war has started and you are going to have to make a choice and take a stand. Ignoring it is no longer an option.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-21138278375266502942012-10-23T22:58:29.628-07:002012-10-23T22:58:29.628-07:00Do you think that all Campos and DJM are doing is ...Do you think that all Campos and DJM are doing is wringing their hands and posting on a blog?<br /><br />Are you so incapable of considering further action - like maybe pointing out the actual job prospects to your students and making sure they can do a cost-benefit analysis - or having an open discussion about employment in a forum at your school - that you can't do anything to help them?<br /><br />I wouldn't pat myself on the back to much for all the great training you give your students. I'm a biglaw associate at a V10 firm and nothing I learned in law school has helped train me to do my job well. The firm is training me as a go, deal by deal. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-37313670277638674802012-10-23T22:53:04.289-07:002012-10-23T22:53:04.289-07:00The students are the scammees and the professors a...The students are the scammees and the professors and deans are the scammers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-20306305717921931172012-10-23T22:49:02.885-07:002012-10-23T22:49:02.885-07:00I'm still bitter about the girl on TLS who wen...I'm still bitter about the girl on TLS who went to American after being repeatedly warned not to go. She needed to retake the LSAT but didn't want to because she couldn't find a job in her field of international relations.<br /><br />She was very smug about ignoring advice. <br /><br />I hope she wised up and dropped out already.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-50874700857754073652012-10-23T22:45:17.676-07:002012-10-23T22:45:17.676-07:00I was in a call center about 2 years ago, calling ...I was in a call center about 2 years ago, calling deadbeats to collect debts. And two seats from me? A grad of UVA Law with an MS from NYU. 10 clams an hour....PropagandistHackerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00032093796955347846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-22227476390641208692012-10-23T22:43:01.583-07:002012-10-23T22:43:01.583-07:00You want people to stop talking about how terrible...You want people to stop talking about how terrible law schools have been for years with their lies and data, and to stop talking about the employment data, just so you can keep your job going?<br /><br />That's right. As people slowly wise up and stop going to school, who is getting fired? You guys.<br /><br />Stop trying to cover your ass in the guise of wanting to help.<br /><br />And, we don't need your help to succeed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-34847781969981655392012-10-23T22:33:32.744-07:002012-10-23T22:33:32.744-07:00Ah there is some idiot on TLS claiming that the wo...Ah there is some idiot on TLS claiming that the worst outcome he could see from a T6 (I think) is a job making 80K in NYC. Like this was the absolute worst outcome. He had some other ridiculous points figuring that the kids from the top 30 or so school will all get jobs, I didn't follow that one. Sad thing is that these cases don't understand that their lack of comprehension of reality is a perfect indicator of how poorly they will do in school (and no that isn't a scientific study, just based on instinct)<br /><br />Then another idiot 0L argued about how he will work hard, have a good attitude and crush law school.<br /><br />They have been politely shown why they are wrong by a couple of people, including a mod who just graduated from Harvard. <br /><br />But here is the best part, you ready?<br /><br />This was in a thread about reading Lawprof's book. <br /><br />I kid you not.<br /><br />http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=195591<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-82331448797013967962012-10-23T22:20:22.993-07:002012-10-23T22:20:22.993-07:00Hello Fordham 2L. Let your incredulous favorite p...Hello Fordham 2L. Let your incredulous favorite professors know that the data Fordham provided to the ABA for the class of 2011 shows that... <i>drumroll please</i>....<br /><br /><b>... just about 50% of their 2011 new grads secured full time JD-required jobs</b> (the 4 law-school jobs are excluded).<br /><br />You might want to remind them that this is not hyperbole generated by Campos. It's data supplied by Fordham to the ABA.<br /><br />It's also quite easily available on the internet via the ABA website and (converted to cute easier-to-view graphics) via Law School Transparency's website.<br /><br />You would think that such sophisticated purveyors of legal education would, at a minimum, have enough intellectual curiosity about their own school to seek out this easily available information.<br /><br />Guess head-in-sand is a more comfortable affect, though. <br /><br />Unfortunate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-64751851618365114062012-10-23T21:50:34.042-07:002012-10-23T21:50:34.042-07:00Fordham 2L here. Was shocked last year when one o...Fordham 2L here. Was shocked last year when one of my favorite professors (tenure track) who seems like a totally not-clueless guy looked at me with genuine confusion when I told him about this blog, "No... no... maybe students are having trouble other places but not at a school like Fordham."<br /><br />Another one of my favorite professors, an adjunct who practiced for 27 years, said Campos was engaging in "hyperbole" by calling it a 'scam'. To his credit - he linked to this blog on his page which is how I found it.<br /><br />Most of the professors seem clueless - always dropping the "when you start in your practice" sentences as if its a foregone conclusion.<br /><br />My fellow 1Ls last year were generally COMPLETELY clueless. Most of them seemed to think that a "bad" outcome would be a full time job that paid 60k/year. I think OCI was a huge smack of reality for most of them....... I'm trying to get a handle on just how bad it was, but it is really a TABOO subject. The few of us with offers feel like jerks bringing it up, and those without are ashamed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-74759934397371862622012-10-23T21:22:27.626-07:002012-10-23T21:22:27.626-07:00ahem...my kingdom for an edit function...there=the...ahem...my kingdom for an edit function...there=their...cas127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-59230931083767040092012-10-23T21:19:46.148-07:002012-10-23T21:19:46.148-07:00Excellent point.
As this point, with the schools ...Excellent point.<br /><br />As this point, with the schools almost universally recognized (here) as hopelessly corrupt and self-serving, the best source of data on the "health" of the profession (longer-term) might be a statistical analysis of the online law firm directories (Martindale, etc.).<br /><br />The directories could provide a segmentation analysis of various firm sizes, geographic locations, feeder law schools, etc.<br /><br />The data accumulated could then be compared with the ABA's aggregate statistics (indeed, the ABA itself may have a treasure trove of unreleased detailed data - otherwise, how did they generate their aggregated stats - http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/migrated/marketresearch/PublicDocuments/lawyer_demographics_2012_revised.authcheckdam.pdf)<br /><br />I wonder if these directories would make there databases available for academic research, LawProf.<br />cas127noreply@blogger.com