tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post887859641172711788..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: Shooting the messengerLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-73971312092122326422011-11-11T14:18:38.639-08:002011-11-11T14:18:38.639-08:00I think the most priceless comment from the good d...I think the most priceless comment from the good dean is "our nation will need the analytic and leadership skills good lawyers bring if it is to sort out the mess made by our civic and political leadership." Um, who does he think our civic and political leaders are now? More Congressmen, Senators, and even Presidents come from the legal profession than from any other source. There is no shortage of lawyers going into politics. We do have a profound shortage in people going into innovative fields like science and engineering and so perhaps it would be better for the country if our most talented young men and women stayed out of law school.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-41680255163175135122011-11-07T17:02:01.511-08:002011-11-07T17:02:01.511-08:00To answer one of your questions, the 35% of Stanfo...To answer one of your questions, the 35% of Stanford students clerking are doing so almost exclusively in Federal District and Appellate courts. Lists of students and their clerkships are internally distributed at SLS occasionally, and quickly glancing through the most recent one shows that all but a few SLS clerks have Fed District/Appellate clerkships (with 2-3 students/year going to the AK Supreme Ct and usually ~2 students/year taking other State Supreme Court clerkships). Of the students doing federal clerkships, the number seems pretty evenly split between district and circuit clerkships. And, the districts and circuits drawing the most SLS students are pretty predictable--there are a ton of 9th Circuit clerks with significant numbers in DC/2nd/7th/5th/10th and a handful in the other circuits. For District Cts, students are a bit more spread out but there are still substantial concentrations in the NDCal, SDNY, DDC.<br /><br />--SLS 3L who should be doing other things<br /><br />PS this is far more anecdotal but I don't know of anyone in my class or in last year's graduated class who doesn't have real full-time legal work currently/lined up (e.g., nobody is sorting books for Crown Library, doing doc review, or something similar).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-80814732857030628502011-11-07T07:15:20.856-08:002011-11-07T07:15:20.856-08:00I have a friend who is a career counselor, its sad...I have a friend who is a career counselor, its sad, but his biggest (and best) piece of advice to kids is to simply abandon america, if able flee to a country that actually gives a crap about their people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-81419003871434384932011-11-04T06:46:27.601-07:002011-11-04T06:46:27.601-07:00Someone commented a few blog posts back, asking wh...Someone commented a few blog posts back, asking who makes the decision to hire grads in fluff positions to boost the school's own employment numbers. You people are making it way more complicated than need be. Who makes those decisions, or any decision like it? THE DEANS. Nothing happens at any given law school unless the dean signs off on it, the dean approves, it was the dean's idea, etc. The deans rule these schools like kings. It's no more complicated than that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-5295826967702233222011-11-04T02:44:58.913-07:002011-11-04T02:44:58.913-07:00@8.55 -
The answer to the question "where ar...@8.55 -<br /><br />The answer to the question "where are the jobs" was a classic:<br /><br /><b>"Everywhere you look in society, it seems to me, there are people who need lawyers who can’t get them. Those may be people who are very poor and need public interest and pro bono lawyers, but they also may be individuals or families or small businesses that need lawyers and who are never going to be in a position to hire large commercial law firms."</b><br /><br />Right. So basically: <i>"Sorry about that huge amount of debt we swamped you with, but you can still get a job working for free or as near to free as makes no difference"</i>. Astounding.Gilman Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06607416440240634159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-74442999645718695862011-11-04T02:36:06.180-07:002011-11-04T02:36:06.180-07:00You, the thing is, even if the "value over li...You, the thing is, even if the "value over lifetime" was exactly what they say it is, this still wouldn't mean that it was worth what they are charging for it. <br /><br />As a very simple demonstration, the "value over lifetime" of the things that a pre-school education teaches you is very high indeed - you use what you learn in pre-school every day. Who, however, would be willing to pay $40K a year for their children to receive it? <br /><br />Why not? Well, fairly obviously, the things you learn in pre-school do not, actually, take a great degree of skill to teach, and can be learned elsewhere. <br /><br />And law school? Who would pay $40K a year to receive it if it were not for the fact that they had to do so to take the bar exam, an exam which US law school education does not, in the end, prepare them for?Gilman Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06607416440240634159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-7814659006210361872011-11-03T23:16:07.103-07:002011-11-03T23:16:07.103-07:00But I want to know what Orin Kerr thinks.But I want to know what Orin Kerr thinks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-36932854741211934432011-11-03T20:55:05.839-07:002011-11-03T20:55:05.839-07:00http://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-scho...http://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/articles/2011/11/03/law-jobs-exist-where-students-dont-look-dean-says<br /><br />Ugh. They must have all phoned each other to coordinate the same canned responses.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-31081135240341380342011-11-03T19:20:53.718-07:002011-11-03T19:20:53.718-07:00"Law schools are not perfect."
This is ..."Law schools are not perfect."<br /><br />This is such moral equivocation. And coming from a Stanford Dean no less....<br /><br />The shills cannot have it both ways. They deny knowledge of ALL their graduates outcomes while simultaneously pitching law school as a very good investment.<br /><br />Either they are guilty of criminal fraud or they are unacceptably ignorant. Which one is more likely?Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15729532031872959652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-71813140967697435482011-11-03T17:18:51.012-07:002011-11-03T17:18:51.012-07:00"Obviously, when the economy is in awful shap..."Obviously, when the economy is in awful shape, the legal profession suffers along with everyone else."<br /><br />...Except the professoriate, of course.BL1Yhttp://www.constitutionaldaily.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-28562582740198526142011-11-03T16:07:35.852-07:002011-11-03T16:07:35.852-07:00Crux, you and I have the same exact story except t...Crux, you and I have the same exact story except that I have been licensed for years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-29003557613065377722011-11-03T13:45:49.068-07:002011-11-03T13:45:49.068-07:00This "value over a lifetime" line is par...This "value over a lifetime" line is particularly galling to me on a personal level. I just graduated from a lowly ranked school that cooked the books back when I applied, and continues to cook the books even now. The employment numbers are unquestionably fraudulent. I am 41 yrs old, wanted to try something different, my wife is an attorney, blah blah, same old story. But, bottom line, the degree I've earned has no inherent value at all. I need to first acquire the right to practice law through one of our 50 state's accreditation process and find (on my own, mind you) someone that will make an investment in me so that I may gain experience (read: actual training). Law school has provided me little, if anything, in the way of a marketable skill or set of skills. I have earned only a chance to sit for the bar exam. Value of a law degree... what a joke.Crux of lawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06572986619859564280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-58198734398226281272011-11-03T12:15:02.725-07:002011-11-03T12:15:02.725-07:00To the Professor:
You should have said, "Yes...To the Professor:<br /><br />You should have said, "Yes, it's true that the value of a Stanford Law degree is realized over a lifetime. But that doesn't help you that much in the short run when you're going to default on your student loans of 250K."<br /><br />(A parallel: MF Global may be right in the long run about the value of European Sovereign Bonds. But in the short run, MF is bankrupt."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-71029255973627480592011-11-03T10:41:20.179-07:002011-11-03T10:41:20.179-07:00How is it a reasonable expectation to think that e...How is it a reasonable expectation to think that every one who goes to even HYS is going to get a job immediately upon graduation-- no matter what their grades, no matter what their personalities-- no matter what? Twenty people out of a class of 550?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-22157014590102264632011-11-03T10:22:45.349-07:002011-11-03T10:22:45.349-07:00HLS placed roughly 20 class of 2011 grads in HLS-f...HLS placed roughly 20 class of 2011 grads in HLS-funded public service fellowships. These fellowships run for one year. Competition for these fellowships in the class of 2011 was fierce. Students with strong public service resumes were denied them. OCS employees actually laughed in the face of one 2011 grad in this situation, because he had made the "mistake" of working at an HLS clinic for both summers, rather than going through the biglaw circus, which he was not interested in. OCS offered him no further help in finding employment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-38884805175976589562011-11-03T10:10:45.884-07:002011-11-03T10:10:45.884-07:00@9:47, we haven't posted 2010 figures because ...@9:47, we haven't posted 2010 figures because there's been no uniform provision of 2010 figures, even though schools have had the data for roughly 8 months and reports from NALP for 5 months. The ABA says it will provide class of 2010 information on an accelerated schedule, but this information will be more of the same, troubling information. See here: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202516512301<br /><br />This means that the best class of 2010 information will come from U.S. News. But that won't be available for another 4 months. And it's not clear yet that it will include questions that will help prospectives, because typically U.S. News just mirrors the questions asked by the ABA (they just share the answers about the legal employment rate unlike the ABA). We're hoping U.S. News asks the questions anyway this year, but schools will nevertheless use the ABA's resistance as an excuse not to provide U.S. News with the information. In other words, there's a good chance we never get any class of 2010 information about how well graduates did in obtaining full-time legal jobs. This is shocking to say the least.Law School Transparencyhttp://www.lawschooltransparency.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-86134050275780651702011-11-03T09:58:53.016-07:002011-11-03T09:58:53.016-07:009:43: What I find most troubling about Kramer'...9:43: What I find most troubling about Kramer's argument is that he's trying to use the situation at SLS (which as you note he doesn't actually disclose) as the basis for a refutation of criticisms made against law schools in general. This is analogous to using the financial stresses currently being experienced by families in the top 1% of income to discuss the problems faced by American families as a whole.LawProfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-16295948205885577072011-11-03T09:57:50.513-07:002011-11-03T09:57:50.513-07:00All of the arguments about "value" is sp...All of the arguments about "value" is specious. So because somebody earns a high salary they should subsidize a sector of society (academia) with onerous non-dischargeable fully guaranteed loans that do nothing but drive up tuition costs? The question should be, what is the reasonable price to charge for an education? And by reasonable I do not mean what is the maximum we can extract from the highest earning 1%.<br /><br />Predatory self-serving idiots, the lot of them.ThirdMannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-63274437803315335302011-11-03T09:47:31.164-07:002011-11-03T09:47:31.164-07:00Just curious, aside from Law School Transparency a...Just curious, aside from Law School Transparency and anecdotal evidence from students, where else can one find reasonably accurate job placement data? LST has yet to post the 2010 figures.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-72731517571506527892011-11-03T09:45:31.450-07:002011-11-03T09:45:31.450-07:00Yep, that line about lifetime value is a terrible ...Yep, that line about lifetime value is a terrible argument. They just want to be able to claim credit for anything you manage to accomplish in your life since it's so obvious that the immediate value of the degree is so low.EricEsqnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-56431431317730440122011-11-03T09:43:58.405-07:002011-11-03T09:43:58.405-07:00In theory, I have no quarrel with the dean of SLS ...In theory, I have no quarrel with the dean of SLS taking a strong line about the value of a SLS degree. I think his points would be much better-taken if he had given actual statistics rather than fudged them, however.<br /><br />When he says this: "we are still working with a small number of graduates caught by the contraction in government and public interest jobs" - I'm not sure what that means at SLS. But I know from the Office of Public Interest Advising at HLS that that means that a "small number of graduates" are volunteering in the public sector (e.g. as APDs, ADAs, or at non-profits) in the hope of obtaining a paid position down the line. I've never been clear on whether those HLS grads are so committed to public interest work that they are unwilling to seek private sector employment (which is true of a "small number" of HLS folks), or whether these people have applied for every job possible, then due to unemployment, have chosen to volunteer to do what they "really want to do." Either way, it was very disturbing to hear that any HLS grads were currently unemployed, and if the same thing is true over at SLS (as the dean's fudge wording sounds like it probably is), it would behoove him to disclose the numbers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-60577582554244166662011-11-03T09:09:54.858-07:002011-11-03T09:09:54.858-07:00I'm annoyed by this line that the value of the...<i>I'm annoyed by this line that the value of the degree is realized over a lifetime.</i><br /><br />Yes, it's complete garbage, intended to mislead, just like "average" salaries of $60,000.Lemuelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-63623412866239417232011-11-03T08:53:06.644-07:002011-11-03T08:53:06.644-07:00Clinics are expensive because they have much small...Clinics are expensive because they have much smaller class sizes. You can't herd 75-100 students into stadium seating and call it a "clinic" the way you can call it a torts class.Tierceletnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-36067886163434195802011-11-03T08:44:25.990-07:002011-11-03T08:44:25.990-07:00Analogies to medical school are almost always goin...Analogies to medical school are almost always going to be inapposite. Med students would go whether it meant a dollar of debt or a million dollars of debt. They're going as a part of their identity, not as a job. They want to say "I am a doctor" not simply "My job is the practice of medicine."<br /><br />While there are some lawyers who have a similar attitude, for vast numbers of law students, it's purely job training.BreezyWheezehttp://www.fark.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-79143445820670448762011-11-03T08:34:09.432-07:002011-11-03T08:34:09.432-07:00I'm annoyed by this line that the value of the...I'm annoyed by this line that the value of the degree is realized over a lifetime. We are talking about conditions that are relatively new. The graduates of the last ten classes or so are ones least capable of putting their JDs to immediate use and there is no evidence at all (nor could there be) that this will somehow pay off over the long run. It's just a ridiculous claim to make.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com