tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post8842845955654517079..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: Real people, real numbersLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger193125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-85932288888947785602013-02-27T10:36:30.177-08:002013-02-27T10:36:30.177-08:00Ι visited multiрle sites but the аudio quаlitу for...Ι visited multiрle sites but the аudio quаlitу for audio sоngs curгent at this site <br />is genuіnely wonԁеrful. <a href="http://scottwigham.com/ColletteM" rel="nofollow">Extra resources</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-65270395761221242402013-02-26T13:16:41.427-08:002013-02-26T13:16:41.427-08:00I have read so many posts about the blogger lovers...I have read so many posts about the blogger lovers except this post is in fact a nice paragraph, keep it up.<br /><br /><br /><br />My homepage; <a href="http://s.profileblock.com/EdmundoRa" rel="nofollow">profileblock.com</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-81232218279169971942013-02-25T11:59:41.190-08:002013-02-25T11:59:41.190-08:00Hi there, it’s understandable piece of writing alo...Hi there, it’s understandable piece of writing along with this YouTube <br />video; I can’t imagine that one can not understand this straightforward piece of <br />writing having with video demo.<br /><br />Also visit my web site :: <a href="http://www.penpalspoint.com/?L=blogs.blog&article=66747" rel="nofollow">http://www.penpalspoint.com/?L=blogs.blog&article=66747</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-29089364438238613492012-12-05T16:47:12.084-08:002012-12-05T16:47:12.084-08:00Here is the rest:
many high fixed costs of mainta...Here is the rest:<br /><br />many high fixed costs of maintaining and running a campus that will be there no matter how many or how few students they have. Law schools have costs to maintain and insure their parking garages and lots, which are the same no matter how many students are enrolled. Law firms can fairly easily shed overhead costs when their billable hours are going to decrease by laying off attorneys (and yes I realize law schools can lay off staff) but law firms can even get rid of office space by renting less leaving the property management company to find a new tenant(s) for that now unused space. Even if a law school had a 50% decline in tuition it can shed overhead costs like most law firms can. <br /><br />Also you have no idea if the law school is actually magically going through all the cash their bring in or if they are stashing some of it away for a rainy day. Just because they may be bringing in lots of money per years doesn’t mean they are spending all of it.<br /><br />Law schools in general may be a scam or a bad investment or all the other things this blog seems to point them out as being but there seems to be no shortage of people who are willing to pay or take out loans to pay for law school. Nothing will change and tuition will continue to rise as long as there are students willing and able to pay it. If, for the next school year, you had every law school student hopeful refuse to enroll in law schools across the country due to their perception that current tuition charges were too expensive, then magically law schools would be forced to lower their tuition rates and/or offer very generous scholarships, which effectively lower tuition rates. I believe if this were to happen that many schools would be just fine and still offer the same quality legal education at a lower tuition rate but you would have some law schools that would be forced to close their doors and liquidate due to having too high of overhead and not being able to lower their tuition rates enough to attract students. At some point there will be a market correction, either because of students collectively refusing to pay extremely high tuition leaving law schools with no tuition revenues or Congress reforming graduate student loan programs, which would greatly hinder the amount of money students could borrow to transfer to their law school. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-81659866387359819552012-12-05T16:46:45.382-08:002012-12-05T16:46:45.382-08:00DJM and MacK,
You are both missing the point comp...DJM and MacK,<br /><br />You are both missing the point completely when it comes to law professors and trying to come up with a billable hourly rate based on tuition...its laughable. First off you and I may agree that most law professors are overpaid but they aren't. They wouldn't be getting the salaries they are getting and have been getting and will be getting if they were overpaid. Someone or some committee within their law school believes they are worth that salary and pays it, if everyone believed they were overpaid no law professor would be getting anywhere near what they are currently making. <br /><br />Also to compare law professor salaries with that of private practice attorney’s salaries or billable hours is comparing apples to oranges...they are two totally different animals. If law professors' salaries suddenly dropped dramatically, I bet you might only "lose" 5% of them to private practice, where they are be rightly compensated for their time and skills. This is because for 95% of law professors they CAN'T make it as top earners in private practice that is why they are professors instead, getting compensated to the highest level that they can for their skills. If law professors could get a better/higher compensation (compensation in this case includes all things that the job entails even things that aren’t monetary) somewhere else they would—at least the majority would because they would feel like the current position they are in isn’t fairly compensating them what they are worth. <br /><br />Also regarding the billing, there is no way you can even remotely come up with respectable or accurate billable hour number for a law professor. For one, law schools and institutions are not run like law firms, again apples to oranges. Also you have NO idea how much revenue from tuition the schools bring in. Not every student in the class size data that you have pulled off of a law school website is paying the full amount of tuition due to scholarships, discounts, etc that the school has as a tool to keep and attract students. Also VERY rarely are the buildings or halls donated. A school may get some of the costs for constructing a new building through donations but the rest comes from the school taking out a loan or floating some bonds (also a loan). Even if the school did get the building 100% donated they have to heat, light, maintain, clean, insure, etc their buildings which is a huge expense called overhead. Big law firms may appear to have large overhead due to the fact that many rent office space in the highest rent districts but they only use what they need. For example, my law firm doesn’t heat the office on the weekends--if you are going to be working over the weekend you have to put in a special request to have heat by the middle of the week and then a top equity partner will send you an email stating they will do it this time but don't ask again because they are tired of spending their marketing budget on heat. Law schools don't have a choice about some resources, they have to have buildings open, lite, and heated even though maybe not a single student may never step foot in them that day. Also in some states even if you are a nonprofit you still must pay property taxes. So law schools have Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-53997891005517933352012-08-30T03:54:44.559-07:002012-08-30T03:54:44.559-07:00I surmise I have chosen an intelligent and mind bl...I surmise I have chosen an intelligent and mind blowing website with interesting material.<br /><a href="http://bpclaimsinfo.com/" rel="nofollow">bpclaimsinfo.com</a>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05194863802772194586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-65289730135538346672012-08-08T15:23:58.902-07:002012-08-08T15:23:58.902-07:0030-40 years ago the ABA didn't have a rule tel...30-40 years ago the ABA didn't have a rule telling 1L's (or full-time 2/3Ls) that they would be kicked out of school if they worked....and if a student was smart enough to realize that this rule would not be enforced, he'd probably not be going to law school in the first place.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-19430328155531450682012-08-08T10:05:07.571-07:002012-08-08T10:05:07.571-07:00Did this student serve in the military after colle...Did this student serve in the military after college and accumulate savings/have a GI Bill benefit that way? <br /><br />Did this student work during law school? I worked 30-35 hours a week all three years (40+ during vacations and summers) at my T14 law school in order to graduate without significant debt. It's not easy, you're not <i>supposed</i> to do it, but you can if you really don't want debt.<br /><br />I want to be sympathetic, because cost increases have outstripped student/family resources, but I rarely see students these days doing the sorts of things to make ends meet we did as a matter of course 30-40 years ago.Cato Renascihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10202793596976551749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-6057360979148705162012-08-07T21:30:35.246-07:002012-08-07T21:30:35.246-07:00Sorry kid, us lawyers did enough stupid shit to vi...Sorry kid, us lawyers did enough stupid shit to vilify ourselves. Blaming Reagan (under whose presidency legal employment exploded, btw) rings even hollower than O'Bama still blaming Bush.DaleyCenterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15187715212792382917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-7454525132659768032012-08-06T11:34:19.290-07:002012-08-06T11:34:19.290-07:00For this student focused on public-interest law, w...For this student focused on public-interest law, why doesn't he look into LRAP? http://www.equaljusticeworks.org/resources/student-debt-relief/law-school-lraps/list-law-school-lrapsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-51756079503713794762012-08-06T09:22:05.348-07:002012-08-06T09:22:05.348-07:006:20 a.m., I agree entirely and have posted on tha...6:20 a.m., I agree entirely and have posted on that before. There's also the effect of serving as a gatekeeper to a restricted profession (i.e., you must have a JD to sit for the bar in most states). I was just trying to answer MacK's question about where specifically the money goes these days. I don't expect you or others to keep up with all of the posts or views, so will specifically affirm the impact of federal loan money! In fact, you'll be seeing a lot about federal loans in main posts this week.DJMhttp://moritzlaw.osu.edu/faculty/bios.php?ID=38noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-9013061803478136232012-08-06T06:20:10.756-07:002012-08-06T06:20:10.756-07:00@DJM "The high cost of law school tuition tod...@DJM "The high cost of law school tuition today comes from three factors: many more specialized courses, much more time/money supporting faculty research, and more support services for students."<br /><br />Respectfully, this explains how the money is being spent, not why the cost is what it is. The cost is explained by the federal government's removal of downward pressure on prices. If the feds stopped skewing the market, the cost of law school would go down substantially, no matter how badly people wanted specialized courses, faculty research, and support services.<br /><br />(Also, I love the <i>Oklahoma</i> lyrics, whoever's been posting them.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-22804711336520074762012-08-06T05:47:05.270-07:002012-08-06T05:47:05.270-07:00^^^^ Cheez! Relax you two!
Bum diddy bum diddy bu...^^^^ Cheez! Relax you two!<br /><br />Bum diddy bum diddy bum--<br /><br /><br />Territory folks should stick together, <br />Territory folks should all be pals. <br />Cowboys dance with farmer's daughters, <br />Farmers dance with the ranchers' gals.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-78798163922023668242012-08-06T05:45:31.036-07:002012-08-06T05:45:31.036-07:00^^^
Now Listen up:
The farmer is a good and thri...^^^<br /><br />Now Listen up:<br /><br />The farmer is a good and thrifty citizen, no matter what the cowman says of things.<br />You seldom see 'em drinkin' in a bar room<br />Unless somebody else is buyin drinks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-76079089220253234432012-08-06T05:44:29.645-07:002012-08-06T05:44:29.645-07:00@5:42AM
FYI:
I'd like to say a word for the...@5:42AM<br /><br />FYI:<br /><br /><br />I'd like to say a word for the farmer, <br />He come out west and made a lot of changes <br />He come out west and built a lot of fences, <br />And built 'em right acrost our cattle ranges.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-27330850599734724572012-08-06T05:42:09.857-07:002012-08-06T05:42:09.857-07:00The farmer and the cowman should be friends.
Oh, ...The farmer and the cowman should be friends. <br />Oh, the farmer and the cowman should be friends.<br />One man likes to push a plough, the other likes to chase a cow, <br />But that's no reason why they cain't be friends. <br /><br />Territory folks should stick together, <br />Territory folks should all be pals. <br />Cowboys dance with farmer's daughters, <br />Farmers dance with the ranchers' gals.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-56273550179435295692012-08-06T03:53:49.922-07:002012-08-06T03:53:49.922-07:00Law prof : perhaps a good way to get people to und...Law prof : perhaps a good way to get people to understand hiring figures is to get them to count the SA spots. People in tls are suddenly shocked and scared when they read the largest SA class in Atlanta is 20. A major firm there - troutman just deferred its starting class til march.<br /><br />People should go on nalp for their market and add up the total number of jobs . <br /><br />It is an eye openerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-15922071462145645472012-08-05T23:18:49.846-07:002012-08-05T23:18:49.846-07:00MacK et al. - All the talk about allopathic medic...MacK et al. - All the talk about allopathic medical schools versus osteopathic medical schools and the merits of the M.D. degree over the D.O. brings up a possible partial solution to the current crisis. The problem is the explosion of new and often for profit diploma mills and the ever larger number of existing law schools whose graduates have almost no chance for a career in the legal profession. Why not make a differentiation like the med schools do? All of the 4th tier schools, the Cooleys, Thomas Jeffersons, Tuoro, Phoenix, Golden Gate and such would be required to give a LL.B. rather than a J.D. Also any new school would be required to give LL.B.s only, until such time as they had demonstrated academic competence and the ability to place a decent number of their graduates in real long term legal employment. Having to explain to their potential applicants why they only granted a lesser degree, would go a long way to cutting off their now limitless supply of student loan fueled lemmings. William OckhamAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-7765692685894678592012-08-05T21:51:57.040-07:002012-08-05T21:51:57.040-07:009:39 PM, I like this blog because I can read it to...9:39 PM, I like this blog because I can read it to follow the implosion of law schools and thereby get a glimpse into the future as med schools are heading down the same path. I think it is a foregone conclusion that multiple law schools will close although I have no idea which ones. I am currently working at a med school and will not be retired by the time a similar crash hits the med schools.Coolerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15496441575037805849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-60863637088231758082012-08-05T21:39:35.067-07:002012-08-05T21:39:35.067-07:00Cooler, what brought you to this blog?Cooler, what brought you to this blog?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-92180429204981633162012-08-05T20:40:39.271-07:002012-08-05T20:40:39.271-07:00There are still people on tls who think that there...There are still people on tls who think that there are stable careers in being a public defender if you are willing to go to rural areas.<br /><br />I can't post on tls anymore. I strongly believe at least half of the people should not go at all. I don't know how to convince them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-47118785227237131022012-08-05T20:14:50.219-07:002012-08-05T20:14:50.219-07:00If anyone wonders why I switch computers and keybo...If anyone wonders why I switch computers and keyboards - it is our office osteopath/chiropractor (across the street) who informed us, backed up by our doctors, that the reason that my partners and I (or at least a few of us) had chronic neck problems was from lap-top lugging and typing, which now means that a few of us run multiple machines - the cure being desktops and laptops only when essential. I still cannot really feel my little finger plus one on each hand, but I have to switch between 3-4 keyboard layouts - my neck hurts less though and I have some sensation somewhere that I lacked before, but maybe I'm more of a dick!<br /><br />MacKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-71854923991208616102012-08-05T20:05:19.545-07:002012-08-05T20:05:19.545-07:00DJM -
I find your numbers interesting. The bil...DJM - <br /><br /> I find your numbers interesting. The billing rate you came up with $754 per hour (rounded) is a pretty high rate for even NYC, DC or San Francisco (and there is a difference between rack rate and charged rate) - it is pretty well top-top for charged rate. In a law firm some $4-500 of that would be overhead and profit (and when a partner can charge north of $800 per hour (which is $750 made good at least) that partner keeps most of the profit, plus some of the origination too.) <br /><br />Speaking as a semi-private lawyer - someone who was in-house biggish departments, i.e., 16-30 T20 graduates or equivalent on 3 continents, or in private 5-25 major litigation matters per year managed (some as direct counsel) and a pile of transactions, the numbers for law schools do not "add up." I cannot fathom the revenue that GW makes for a single 1L course - let alone 5 of them - and even at class sizes of say 25 they don't make sense. <br /><br />Now, I am not being entirely honest - I have dealt with "blank check" situations after the fact, i.e., situations where the bills were not been read and the associates engaged in a billing frenzy once the word got out that would make sharks with blood in the water sound like a Marian sodality at high tea. Even when associates with loan debt and a firing gun to their head were billing on the dumbest clients and it was Q.... or W...., I have not seen anything quite as crazy as what law schools allow client money to be spent on.<br /><br />I do regard law professors as overpaid, but if they are compared to their peers billing $800+ per hour, they have a crap deal. <br /><br />Where the **** is the tuition going? <br /><br />MacK (switched computers again)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-86296654640761808752012-08-05T19:56:55.120-07:002012-08-05T19:56:55.120-07:00The thing about doctors is that in urban areas wit...The thing about doctors is that in urban areas with tons of well credentialed doctors and tons of well insured patients having insurance to cover the fees of those well credentialed doctors, no one is going to see an NP or PA rather than a doctor. The only time I have heard of someone using a non-doctor is a nurse midwife for childbirth. On the other hand, a larger medical group will be able to assign some tasks to a NP or PA that might be done by a doctor in a small practice. The threat to the medical profession is nothing like what has already happened in law. We have double the number of grads as there are jobs and up or out policies that put some of our best and brightest out of gainful employment very early in their careers. I just do not believe that the jobs of MDs are threateded by NPs. I do think in the field of psychiatry, psychiatrists have a lot of competition from non-MDs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-41056982752679295392012-08-05T18:45:35.481-07:002012-08-05T18:45:35.481-07:00Yes, we do. Thank you.Yes, we do. Thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com