tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post8509115148345748893..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: Legal Ethics Forum on legal education's response to the economic realities facing the professionLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-63212036731643544732013-01-21T01:32:25.225-08:002013-01-21T01:32:25.225-08:00Im good at math and have the ability to statistics...Im good at math and have the ability to statistics related program. I also got admitted to a 3rd tier law school. Which would you choose to do? Which has better job outlook, as i enjoy both subjects?<br /><br /><a href="http://phlebotomytrainingpro.net/colorado/" rel="nofollow">phlebotomy training colorado</a>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06106007750484567313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-8844446218947592262012-09-24T20:25:31.439-07:002012-09-24T20:25:31.439-07:00Every child should have the opportunity to receive...Every child should have the opportunity to receive a quality education.<br />Anti Money Launderinghttp://aml-assassin.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-24146928922040379942012-02-19T23:40:00.132-08:002012-02-19T23:40:00.132-08:00Professor Horowitz, did your students really talk ...Professor Horowitz, did your students really talk about "personal agency," or is that your gloss on what they said? Personal responsibility seems more likely what they meant rather than the philosophical concept of agency. And you contrast that with "institutional responsibility." Isn't the issue better framed as personal responsibility of all actors - students, professors, and administrators?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-48003320087381645142012-02-14T14:24:05.792-08:002012-02-14T14:24:05.792-08:00The law schools should be sued. 200K in student lo...The law schools should be sued. 200K in student loan bills, plus lost wages for three years, is a pretty heavy loss if you can't find a job immediately after graduation. I would go so far as to say, that about 50% of all law schools should be shut down, because there are too many of them. We do not need that many law schools or lawyers. Everybody wants a law degree these days, and this profession attracts people with a low self esteem, who want that J.D. behind their name, no matter what. With the rise of McLaw schools, everyone can get a McLaw degree now. Almost every pre-law student that I know is looking to prove something about him/herself, and many of the guys are entering this field so they can pick up women easier. And no, I am not trying to joke around here. I honestly believe it takes a lot of self-loathing and low self esteem to incur 200K in debt, with no guarantee of a job, simply because of a twisted desire to enhance one's image.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-65838189700818895752012-02-14T14:20:54.691-08:002012-02-14T14:20:54.691-08:00The law schools should be sued. 200K in student lo...The law schools should be sued. 200K in student loan bills, plus lost wages for three years, is a pretty heavy loss if you can't find a job immediately after graduation. I would go so far as to say, that about 50% of all law schools should be shut down, because there are too many of them. We do not need that many law schools or lawyers. Everybody wants a law degree these days, and this profession attracts people with a low self esteem, who want that J.D. behind their name, no matter what. With the rise of McLaw schools, everyone can get a McLaw degree now. Almost every pre-law student that I know is looking to prove something about him/herself, and many of the guys are entering this field so they can pick up women easier. And no, I am not trying to joke around here. I honestly believe it takes a lot of self-loathing and low self esteem to incur 200K in debt, with no guarantee of a job, simply because of a twisted desire to enhance one's image.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-42125296192447987802012-02-10T15:23:47.509-08:002012-02-10T15:23:47.509-08:00Have a law student in your life? Do them a favor a...Have a law student in your life? Do them a favor and tell them about JD Match. JD Match provides a free online service that uses a sophisticated matching algorithm to connect students with firms and firms with students. Send them this link today. http://bit.ly/wUiaXY and help that special law student get a leg upRachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05900469113566093300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-45349725802445145012012-02-09T18:24:38.163-08:002012-02-09T18:24:38.163-08:00The whole "You should have known I am a damn ...The whole "You should have known I am a damn liar" defense is really a non starter. At some point, every fraudster tries to make this argument. It never works.<br /><br />In effect, the law schools are saying, "Our lies are so transparent and obvious that no reasonable person would believe them. Therefore, we do have the right to lie our damn fool heads off."<br /><br />The obvious problem with this argument is that (1) it is an admission that representations were made, and (2) those representations were false. In making these admissions, law schools have proved up 90% of a fraud case. The only other elements are justifiable reliance and damages.<br /><br />Damages are pretty clear: up to $200,000 in expenses and three years of lost wages. Add in exemplary damages, and the tab can get pretty high.<br /><br />As for justifiable reliance, the obvious question is why law schools would knowing make false representations if they did not intend for students to rely upon them.<br /><br />Quite frankly, any law professor who does not understand this has no business practicing law, let alone teaching other people to practice law.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-58046050860679716322012-02-08T09:26:18.711-08:002012-02-08T09:26:18.711-08:00The suggestion of having different types of law sc...The suggestion of having different types of law schools for different purposes is intriguing. Applicants will decide going in whether the want a traditional program, or a more truncated, specialized program. It is not likely that HYS, Chicago and schools like that will change. There will be a market for those grads among firms, corporations, and consulting outfits. They would continue to garner clerkships and top government jobs the way they do now. Those alternatives would remain expensive.<br /><br />That would leave room for other schools to offer programs tailored to students who want more practical training, who could learn how to set up their own practices, or be if more immediate use to employers, private and public. The faculty would be geared toward teaching , and be comprised of "regular" faculty and a large number of lower cost practioner adjuncts. It could be a two year program.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-61814682504474518472012-02-08T04:01:44.869-08:002012-02-08T04:01:44.869-08:00I hope Lawprof will follow up on the this story wi...I hope Lawprof will follow up on the this story with some reaction to the pieces his fellow profs have posted over the last few days.<br /><br />I've read about a third of them so far and I have a mixed reaction. On the one hand, its tremendous progress that a forum like this even exists. Just a year ago, no law professors (other than maybe Tamanaha) were talking about this at all.<br /><br />On the other hand, it seems like the "skills" debate is being taken too seriously. I think this is an unfortunate distraction. Skills have never been the reason why graduates did or did not get jobs. Its a simple issue of supply and demand, and right now the supply is too high and the demand is too low. Skills training will do nothing to help. Neither will designing new and innovative courses on how to be the law practitioners of the future. The simple, unavoidable, and very uncomfortable fact is that the law school industry itself needs to shrink. Fewer students, fewer schools, fewer profs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-70044465005849585882012-02-07T06:33:30.184-08:002012-02-07T06:33:30.184-08:00@ 4:56 AM
Hell no. Public sector spending (excl...@ 4:56 AM <br /><br />Hell no. Public sector spending (excluding military and entitlement spending) have been rapidly declining as an overall portion of the overall economy. The problem is not too much public sector spending. If anything, there’s too little spending and more people are falling through the cracks.<br /><br />Teacher’s unions serve more than to allow our educators to make a decent living (which also makes them less prone to bribery – bribery of teachers is very common in countries where teachers are poorly paid and must supplement their wages by other means). They also protect teachers from capricious punishments by the administrators and bad parents. They’re far from perfect, but note that states with the poorest teachers are also the ones with the poorest student performance.<br /><br />The biggest problem in this country is that the rich have bribed and cheated to have lower effective tax rates than the middle class. The voodoo economics of Bush’s tax cuts are the biggest reason for the current federal deficit. With that flush of money, they’re squeezing the middle class and lower classes from public life – through their funding of crazy fringe organizations that just happen to advocate wealth = might = morality. And also happen to demonize and marginalize any group who stands against their wealth.<br /><br />The second biggest reason for the deficit is America fighting multiple wars in places that don’t threaten US. Yeah, Saddam was a tyrant – but what replaced him isn’t an improvement for the Iraqi people and actually pose a far greater threat to the US in terms of instabilitThe so called War on Terror should have been a police action – the British dealt with the IRA for decades without invading other countries, until a negotiated solution was possible. US has executed multiple wars that are disasterous and immoral – we’re paying for it in terms of deficits, the native population are paying in blood and devastation.<br /><br />If you actually paid attention to actual scholarship on the matter – corporations are not outsourcing due to labor expenses. The total labor costs are 10-15% of total costs. The decisions are driven by the desire to cheat taxes (by selling below cost to overseas subsidiaries and then retain the profits overseas, out of reach of the IRS), goose short term profitability, and escape regulations that protect health and safety of workers (FoxConn and every other OEM located in China, Thailand, etc).<br /><br />But you’re just a mindless teabagger mindlessly repeating talking points fed to you by billionaire plutocrats. So I just wasted 15 minutes trying to talk sense to a bag of bricks. Screw me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-77606734200082934612012-02-07T06:02:16.215-08:002012-02-07T06:02:16.215-08:00The only way to help the students get a decent edu...The only way to help the students get a decent education from the public school system and not bankrupt the state any more is to eliminate the teachers union. End of story!Feifan Changhttp://www.edu-chinaembassy.org.uk/news/2011-03-22.htmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-10139074748026139192012-02-07T04:44:01.317-08:002012-02-07T04:44:01.317-08:00Great Article about the Personality Development Co...Great Article about the Personality Development Courses. Please update more new its more useful to viewers.Personality Development Courseshttp://www.careerstrokes.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-36072564601520332832012-02-07T04:12:47.298-08:002012-02-07T04:12:47.298-08:007:01 - Casting my mind back to a legal ethics semi...7:01 - Casting my mind back to a legal ethics seminar I had in 1991, one case discussed was the true story of a New York, White Shoe partner and associate. The partner did something that was a serious breach of legal ethics - and then the associate, who knew but did not participate and even objected, was leaned on by the partner and it would seem the firm to "keep schtum." When the bar found out, both were disbarred. Three years later the partner, based on representations from his buddies, various partners, law profs etc. was given back his law license and indeed joined as a partner a fairly respectable firm - the associate - not so lucky.<br /><br />The professor teaching this story was pretty sanctimonious - he saw nothing wrong in the partner getting back and the associate staying screwed - after all in his opinion the associate had a duty to report the partner, and his failure was a much greater sin than the partners. Hmmm - sounded to me then and still does like the clubby world of waspy white shoe law firm partners.<br /><br />Could PH be charged with some sort of ethics violation - well that depends on two things. First, as a practical matter, do you think that the bar is actually going to go after the law schools, whatever they did ("duck flying pigs"); second, assuming <i>arguendo</i> that the bar did choose to do something, does PH have enough knowledge of actual misrepresentation by the law school where he is a professor that he is obliged to make a report; third, what abut the rest of us? Do we have objective knowledge of false numbers being presented by specific law schools - and do we have an obligation? In that regard read:<br /><br />Rule 8.3 Reporting Professional Misconduct<br />(a) A lawyer who knows that another lawyer has committed a violation of the Rules of Professional Conduct that raises a substantial question as to that lawyer's honesty, trustworthiness or fitness as a lawyer in other respects, shall inform the appropriate professional authority.<br /><br />MacKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-79358415740243910262012-02-06T19:01:07.476-08:002012-02-06T19:01:07.476-08:00@MacK -- I understand what you are saying, but hav...@MacK -- I understand what you are saying, but having to answer tough questions is not the same thing as being the target of a state bar ethics complaint. That is a very specific thing. I entered the discussion because you made it sound so clear that law professors like PH could be charged with ethics violations depending upon the quality of the employment stats their schools published. If that is true, why not file a complaint? You gave one reason-- you do not think a state bar committee would bring the charge. You are most likely right. They would probably not do it unless the professor had been involved in gathering, analyzing, publishing, and promoting the stats.<br />.<br />The duties that law professors have to their students should definitely be discussed and sorted out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-65041982431069024662012-02-06T18:12:59.608-08:002012-02-06T18:12:59.608-08:00If I were a dean at one of the sued law schools, I...If I were a dean at one of the sued law schools, I would be worried about my yield for next year and my US News rank.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-58065484214944051212012-02-06T16:04:56.398-08:002012-02-06T16:04:56.398-08:00Are you misspelling his name to be provocative?Are you misspelling his name to be provocative?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-69984964463908718572012-02-06T15:59:18.654-08:002012-02-06T15:59:18.654-08:002:33PM - clearly law school administrations, deans...2:33PM - clearly law school administrations, deans etc. have the hardest questions to answer. But it would be a mistake to let Paul Horowitz off answering the question - he does after all teach legal ethics. Hell he has even written papers about legal ethics and the downturn - none that I have seen (yes I read a few) addressed the practical ethical question - are law school administrations violating legal ethics when/if they fail to properly represent the employment prospects of their students? Is the issue compounded by the typical law school's financial aid office's role in brokering law student loans? Does a professor owe any duty to his/her students? Does a law school?<br /><br />Horowitz postures here as a bit of a legal gadfly, preening and flinging what he thinks are tough questions at Campos - but he does evade ever addressing the hard ones himself. Since he does read this blog - maybe he would address the issue... the tough one, not the anodyne discussions he has ventured to date. <br /><br />But then.....don't hold your breath. He has been posturing on the margins of the issue for a while without addressing the obvious elephant in the room.<br /><br />MacKAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-58401998101493187472012-02-06T15:09:10.979-08:002012-02-06T15:09:10.979-08:0011:35,
What has been the reaction of the students...11:35,<br /><br />What has been the reaction of the students at your school to the lawsuits? The professors? Administration? I am curious to know the reaction from the inside.<br /><br />I would suggest that you transfer to a T1 or drop out. You only get one life. Don't gamble with it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-68613410305005388302012-02-06T14:48:57.828-08:002012-02-06T14:48:57.828-08:002:37 here:
that should read *is worthwhile*2:37 here:<br /><br />that should read *is worthwhile*Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-20134315704467952332012-02-06T14:48:29.023-08:002012-02-06T14:48:29.023-08:00Not that people should not try, but it is not so e...Not that people should not try, but it is not so easy to get into a union, especially not for racial minorities.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-73207136883795592752012-02-06T14:45:55.501-08:002012-02-06T14:45:55.501-08:0011:35 I would worry about the long term viability ...11:35 I would worry about the long term viability of any of the law schools being sued.If they win, no problem. If they lose, some of them will probably disappear. Regardless the reputations of all the sued law schools will go down in the US News rankings so you need to consider that too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-74759017085430973532012-02-06T14:37:17.271-08:002012-02-06T14:37:17.271-08:00@2:26,
I went to law school because I watched my ...@2:26,<br /><br />I went to law school because I watched my blue-collar family (a printer, a heating duct installer, and several construction workers) be so unhappy, and had to listen to their regret about not going to school. I mean my aunt thought Afghanistan was in Africa, surely the intelligence and willingness to question that comes with an education is not worthwile.<br /><br />Blue collar is not for everyone, and to an extent neither is $$Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-20574832495205378672012-02-06T14:33:20.472-08:002012-02-06T14:33:20.472-08:00@MacK-- taking a break myself, now. Thanks for the...@MacK-- taking a break myself, now. Thanks for the answer. I do notice that you changed the target of a possible ethics complaint from law profs in general to law deans. I do not know Paul Horwitz, but I not think he is a dean, or at least nothing I have seen indicates that. I also doubt if he was responsible for gathering, analyzing,publishing and promoting the employment statistics of his school.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-40303307111982770922012-02-06T14:26:52.972-08:002012-02-06T14:26:52.972-08:00All this comes down to pride. We destroyed oursel...All this comes down to pride. We destroyed ourselves because of pride. Blue collar labor and blue collar jobs were not good enough for us, we wanted something more “prestigious,” and herein comes the pain. I was at a Superbowl party yesterday, and so many people ridiculed me. Comments were thrown around like, “Mr. Big Shot Lawyer, still living at home,” and “Mr. Big Shot Lawyer driving around in shitty car X.” <br /><br />I look at the comments section in this blog, and I see the soruce of the error, the source that is going to make the housing crisis look like Christmas morning at the Trump residence. <br /><br />There are millions and millions of kids in this country. Not all of them can be lawyers, engineers, doctors, etc. Someone has to tow the hard road, and sometimes that road is better than all the rest. The rich will never let their kids do blue collar work. They will stack the deck against everyone else in that regard, whether it be with unpaid internship positions that can be done only with parental hope (DOJ), or whether they use their connections outright. That has been the way of the world since the beginning. No amount of interference by the government can change that.<br /> <br />But this is still America. There are still things you can do. One of these guys at the Superbowl party started in the local 1 NYC plumber’s union at 19. After 12 years, he got into the municipal plumber’s union. At 36, he now makes 150k+ a year with overtime, in addition to the rental properties he owns. I could give you 100 examples like this, and it is those examples that set this country apart, now and in the past.<br /><br /> That is not the world kiddies. There is more to the world than being a white collar professional. <br /><br />None of this will matter though because the alternatives will be reduced to white collar work. The politicians will never tell the truth or act in a manner that they know is best for our country because they know people will not want to hear it, they know people will not vote for that. So we get the same crooks over and over. <br /><br />I have a technical degree, a law degree, and no debt because of schollies. I did very well in LS, but my life has been put back by at least and at best by 5 years because of this infernal JD. College is not for everybody. Law school is not for everybody. There are other options kids, and if you think those options are too low class for you, then you will suffer as I do (and likely much worse).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-67209964024513565272012-02-06T12:14:57.798-08:002012-02-06T12:14:57.798-08:00@11:35- If you're attending a law school being...@11:35- If you're attending a law school being sued, then you are attending a bottom school. If it's your first year, and you have the grades to transfer, do so. If you cannot transfer, I highly highly recommended dropping out of school. Don't worry about what your family and friends say..it's just gonna be worse from them three years down the road when you can't find a job.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com