tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post8323848295091284607..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: Executive summaryLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger161125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-77013102962468117092012-12-05T21:17:33.970-08:002012-12-05T21:17:33.970-08:00But at some point, when one speaks only in hyperbo...But at some point, when one speaks only in hyperbole (as Campos does*), it's not called "hyperbole" anymore, it's just called flat out inaccuracy. Especially coming from someone who excoriates everyone in his field about their inaccuracies.<br /><br />*and if that's not accurate, I can just claim hyperbole, right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-79000645594708007442012-12-05T19:59:43.045-08:002012-12-05T19:59:43.045-08:00These things go in cycles. We are the new Depressi...These things go in cycles. We are the new Depression Era children.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-14101133902144183892012-12-05T15:38:54.615-08:002012-12-05T15:38:54.615-08:00Hyperbole. It's a rhetorical device.Hyperbole. It's a rhetorical device. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-1815280790849036582012-12-05T14:32:11.678-08:002012-12-05T14:32:11.678-08:00"in any case they're just an additional b..."in any case they're just an additional body of laws that you need to know about on top of the national law related to your practice area."<br /><br />Well, *yeah*. And anyone who wants to do "international law" without appreciating that it means "international + domestic law" is sufficiently moronic that they deserve exactly what's coming to them. But it doesn't mean that international law (or jobs dealing heavily with it) does not exist.<br /><br />I just read a case for work that dealt with extradition of a third-party national from Country A to Country B, ultimately to face domestic criminal prosecution. The lawyers that dealt with the extradition issue were, obviously, dealing simultaneously with domestic and international law.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-67832330438971128172012-12-05T14:28:10.321-08:002012-12-05T14:28:10.321-08:00So the correct way to call them out is to say just...So the correct way to call them out is to say just that: "Unless you go to a T6 school and (likely) complete a federal clerkship, you will not be hired for one of the extremely limited jobs in environmental/human rights/etc law. If you do meet these prerequisites and get one of these jobs, be forewarned that it's not going to be as consistently exotic/exciting as it (a) sounds to laypeople and (b) was described in your T6 school's recruiting brochure."<br /><br />Again, a far different and more accurate statement than "There is no such thing as international law.<br /><br />Or environmental law. Or human rights law. Or sports law. Basic rule: If some form of legal practice sounds interesting to non-lawyers, it does not exist."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-87622404106998458912012-12-05T13:39:57.071-08:002012-12-05T13:39:57.071-08:00But the issue is the schools who are touting their...But the issue is the schools who are touting their great environmental law programs. Not that you need to go to a T6 school and probably clerk for a judge to even get hired in those jobs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-64418852947333648212012-12-05T13:31:48.959-08:002012-12-05T13:31:48.959-08:00http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/07/opinion/stuck-in...http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/07/opinion/stuck-in-arbitration.html<br /><br />Recent op-ed discussion of mandatory arbitration, if you wonder why you do not hear about litigation by lawyers against their employers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-63879147853467925282012-12-05T12:08:54.629-08:002012-12-05T12:08:54.629-08:00Right. So there are rote aspects to law, and &quo...Right. So there are rote aspects to law, and "environmental" and "human rights" law are not seem as sexy every day as 0Ls might think. Again, this is a reasonable point for Campos to make: even if you get a cool-sounding job, you won't be doing "exotic law" every day. And you will still deal with the boring aspects of your field that other types of lawyers do. <br /><br />But that doesn't mean the Sierra Club lawyers aren't practicing environmental law. Or that jobs in bona fide environmental law don't exist.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-22123289680841637282012-12-05T12:04:36.952-08:002012-12-05T12:04:36.952-08:00"No news outlet articles about old lawyers be..."No news outlet articles about old lawyers being discriminated against? No court filings you can find on all of these settled discrimination suits?<br /><br />While I can't prove companies are not discriminating (the usual problem of proving the negative), if it were rampant as you serially allege, shouldn't you be able to provide something in the way of proof more tangible than your incessant ranting on here?"<br /><br /><br />You could not possibly be a lawyer. You don't read about it, special snowflake so the world is hunky-dory.<br /><br />Most large companies have mandatory arbitration policies that employees must agree to as a condition of employment. Arbitration takes away the employee's right to go to court and is confidential. <br /><br />Employers virtually always get releases from employees they fire in exchange for paying severance. Releases have confidentiality and antidisparagement clauses.<br /><br />Most employees of larger companies have no legal right to go to court to claim discrimination. No one in the company will find out if the person who sat next to them made a discrimination claim because the information is confidential. Employees who are fired are silenced one by one, and are legally obligated not to talk about it.<br /><br />Harvard, Columbia Law, at least the older grads I know who are female are mostly not employed in paying jobs that pay anything like the $160,000 starting salary.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-49861427738878938842012-12-05T09:52:36.051-08:002012-12-05T09:52:36.051-08:00If it's implemented on a going-forward basis, ...If it's implemented on a going-forward basis, there's zero problem with this. It's a contract. You agreed to it. Whoopee.Carthage must be footnoted!noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-5841434496514512062012-12-05T08:17:56.886-08:002012-12-05T08:17:56.886-08:00"If the corporation has to settle a discrimin..."If the corporation has to settle a discrimination claim, they go right on doing the same thing. A manager can discrminate and keep his or her job. That is a problem in the legal profession"<br /><br />You make this allegation 3 or 4 times for each LP post. Yet you never offer any proof. No news outlet articles about old lawyers being discriminated against? No court filings you can find on all of these settled discrimination suits?<br /><br />All I can say is, I hear what you're saying but have no clue what you're talking about. I know lots of in-house lawyers. Older lawyers. Minority lawyers. Female lawyers.<br /><br />While I can't prove companies are not discriminating (the usual problem of proving the negative), if it were rampant as you serially allege, shouldn't you be able to provide something in the way of proof more tangible than your incessant ranting on here?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-83685994055979410222012-12-05T07:57:44.240-08:002012-12-05T07:57:44.240-08:00Outstanding.
Environmental lawyers (even for the...Outstanding.<br /><br /><br />Environmental lawyers (even for the Sierra Club) quickly realize that the lawyers for spotted owls work in the same windowless offices and read the same particulate studies as everyone else. Your expert may do field studies; you will not. You will just write his affidavit for him to sign.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-24517185818686226622012-12-05T07:41:52.159-08:002012-12-05T07:41:52.159-08:00But most of those gray-haired attorneys are actual...But most of those gray-haired attorneys are actually "retiring" and *need* to be replaced by young blood.LSShttp://www.lawschoolscam.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-39267750396582871322012-12-05T07:26:02.622-08:002012-12-05T07:26:02.622-08:00While at law school (almost 35 years ago) I interv...While at law school (almost 35 years ago) I interviewed at an L.A. firm that then employed Alex Kozinski as an associate. I had about 15 minutes with him. He told me that he was planning to leave that firm because he had joined up in the hope of doing "international law" but instead found himself "doing domestic law for clients with funny names."Lois Turnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04940132718084602679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-22906276083636079392012-12-05T06:56:38.182-08:002012-12-05T06:56:38.182-08:00The NALP, law schools and the ABA should start col...The NALP, law schools and the ABA should start collecting long term employment data. It could be the same as the 9 month data, but going out by 5 year intervals from graduation, and should be done each year. The data needs to cover 40 years from law school graduation. <br /> <br />Honestly, if what I see happening to me and my peers is validated by the data, it calls for policy changes. These include modifications to up or out system in law firms, and for corporations to have written policies with teeth that prevent age discrimination and age-based harrasment. Right now there is no sanction in most businesses against the manager who discriminates - policies against disrimination have no teeth.<br /><br />If the long term employment data is as bad as it appears, the answer is producing even fewer lawyers than the 9 month employment data would suggest. The younger lawyers right now are simply pushing out their more experienced peers in an oversaturated market, so there are not realistically 40 year careers for most lawyers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-82251314286666508412012-12-05T06:25:16.243-08:002012-12-05T06:25:16.243-08:00As a young woman working in health law, this is te...As a young woman working in health law, this is terrifying. First I'm told that I will be all but eliminated from my field if I decide to have a kid, then I'm told that even if I can stick with it, I'm not likely to keep my job once my hair goes grey? It's outrageous. I don't see how I'm any different than the men I work with. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-39677707123694702492012-12-05T06:22:38.257-08:002012-12-05T06:22:38.257-08:00I do know people who work at the Hague, but your c...I do know people who work at the Hague, but your chances of setting out to get a job there and then actually getting one is minute. For Americans the likelihood of getting work is likely smaller still due to the fact that the US is not a member of the ICC. I guess there are a small number of firms specialising in human rights law (basically matters related to the Human Rights Act 1998, the ECHR etc.) in England and Wales - Matrix Chambers being the most famous - but I'd forget about it unless you're an Oxbridge graduate from a desirable background. <br /><br />Matters with a European dimension, or a dimension related to any other international treaty, could theoretically be described as "international law", but in reality they are much better described in terms of what they deal with. If you're looking at the Madrid system you are working on trademarks, if you're looking at the PCT you're dealling with patents, if you're looking at EU Regulation 1383/2003 then you're looking at an IP enforcement/customs matter, if it's Articles 81 and 82 EC then it's competition law (AKA anti-trust) - in any case they're just an additional body of laws that you need to know about on top of the national law related to your practice area.Gilman Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06607416440240634159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-43873036669797322032012-12-05T06:13:12.590-08:002012-12-05T06:13:12.590-08:00@501:
"But going to law school without first...@501:<br /><br />"But going to law school without first finding out what being a lawyer is like shows you have poor judgment"<br /><br />I didn't actually know what being a civil litigator was like until an internship b/t 2L and 3L year. Until you work in a capacity where you're do law work full-time and are required to bill hours, I don't think anyone knows "what being a lawyer is like."<br /><br />The idea that people who go through seven years of post-grad education are "not that bright" is one of the dumbest things I've heard. We're talking about the bottom-rung Cooley kids here. The mid-level grads at GW and Minnesota are getting screwed, too.Craignoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-81529693659376693422012-12-05T06:06:19.679-08:002012-12-05T06:06:19.679-08:00Also, I agree this is important. I mentioned a c...Also, I agree this is important. I mentioned a couple of times the people on TLS calculating the worth of a Harvard degree based on a 45 year career. <br /><br />Probably most 0LS think they will have a 45 year career, regardless of the school they are attending. Most 0LS are assuming they will actively practice law for the next 45 years and make a lot of money doing so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-43825538555810711222012-12-05T06:04:36.499-08:002012-12-05T06:04:36.499-08:00So what is the best way to go about collecting thi...So what is the best way to go about collecting this data? It must be possible to do some sort of survey or data collection about the state of employment of people over 40.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-52471161764412758662012-12-05T05:54:51.319-08:002012-12-05T05:54:51.319-08:00Original poster here. I just find it odd that our...Original poster here. I just find it odd that our parents' generation has filled us with incredible expectations, guilt, and pressure to achieve what they want for us, yet they have also had a hand in making it exceedingly difficult for their children's and grandchildren's generations to achieve those things. I don't feel angry or resentful; just sad that there is such a disconnect between generations. I actually feel that my grandmother understands our situation and identifies with it better than my parents do. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-17370832606093185912012-12-05T05:36:48.331-08:002012-12-05T05:36:48.331-08:00The problem of no ongoing employment statistics in...The problem of no ongoing employment statistics in law is so serious. This is leading so many 0Ls to make a serious mistake, not realizing that even a law degree from Harvard does not guarantee a job in the second half of one's career. <br /><br />One of the problems here that U.S. corporations are complicit in not retaining older lawyers, especially older women and older minorities. If the corporation has to settle a discrimination claim, they go right on doing the same thing. A manager can discrminate and keep his or her job. That is a problem in the legal profession particularly where there is such a surplus of supply over demand and the victims often cannot work again in a saturated job market. <br /><br />While law firms at least run open up or out policies, corporations settle individual discrimination claims and the manager who discriminates is not sanctioned in any way.<br /><br />If we had the ongoing employment numbers and it became clear that a lot of older lawyers with top schools cannot make a living in this profession, and most are women or minority, there would be pressure on the in houses to fire the managers guilty of unlawful conduct. That is not happening without the data around.<br /><br />My practice area has a large pool of unemployed older women. Older women are the lowest form of life in law because there is no data protecting them from exactly what has happened.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-58837220425862529482012-12-05T05:02:09.909-08:002012-12-05T05:02:09.909-08:00I think that the EEU and britain actually have int...I think that the EEU and britain actually have international law and human rights law. We just don't get those jobs as Americans. It is possible to have a human rights practice in England. At least my Professor at my class on Human Rights Law at Columbia (which I took with the school of international studies one summer when I was an undergrad) claimed this was so. She said we really don't have a human rights practice in the US.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-40262373036472502302012-12-05T04:46:12.500-08:002012-12-05T04:46:12.500-08:00wow - I can't believe I used to read TLSwow - I can't believe I used to read TLSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-40992979615647174392012-12-05T04:41:37.852-08:002012-12-05T04:41:37.852-08:00Good call. Good call. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com