tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post7331805648465682465..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: Mid gameLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-60987510082100175722012-05-27T05:58:36.926-07:002012-05-27T05:58:36.926-07:00Look for the med school faculty scam to start, wit...Look for the med school faculty scam to start, with faculty required to get a significant part of their income from outside practice, but that money being funneled through the school so it forms a part of their institutional base salary.EliRabetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07957002964638398767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-59688981609966272232012-05-26T11:03:11.440-07:002012-05-26T11:03:11.440-07:00Re #3:
My background: I was a military officer wh...Re #3:<br /><br />My background: I was a military officer who left service to attend a private law school in San Diego not named Cal Western or TJ. After about a month of school, I realized I'd made a mistake but my military ethic pushed me towards a "make the best of it" approach and prevented me from simply walking out with a partial refund. Even before getting my final grades, I was counting on taking my JD and returning straight to the military to resume my career in warfighting. Getting my grades back after the second semester simply sped up the execution of this plan, not the decision. I left school with a little less than 40K in debt with nothing "on paper" to show for it, but at least I was able to walk right back into the service and made up a good chunk of it by spending a year in Afghanistan, which was much more fun than sitting through law school classes.<br /><br />Fast forward a few years, I'm currently a federal agent making a six-figure salary. I have a job that is both exciting, rewarding, active, and lets me carry a gun all day. I still have some debt to service, but it's nothing that will ruin my life.<br /><br />Now, on to the point: I recently learned that USD Law has created a Master of Science in Legal Studies degree aimed (partly) at local professionals who could theoretically stand to benefit from an academic study of law. (As law enforcement, I'd argue that I fit that profile perfectly.) The most interesting part of the program is that all it requires is 26 credit hours of courses that are ALREADY IN THE JD CURRICULUM AND ON THE CLASS SCHEDULE. MS students would simply attend classes with and for law students taught by professors that were already committed to teaching them, though sadly not for free (The MS degree costs, per credit, basically the same as one year of USD Law, though one has up to four years to complete it.)<br /><br />I won't bore you with the details of how I then wrote USD Law asking them to simply give me an MS degree since I already had 26 credits of USD Law courses in the can. Suffice it to say, they said "No" and immediately changed their website and handbook to preempt clever punks like me from asking for it in the future. However, I made it clear that anyone with a brain could see that what they were offering was nothing more than 1/3 of a degree at no discount, with no special consideration for its students (i.e. no tailored "professional" courses or anything like that), and at no actual expense for the school itself; The only cost, in theory, USD Law might incur would be whatever a new plastic chair costs in order to keep MS students from sitting on the floor.<br /><br />I'm curious to find out how many takers USD Law has for their MS program...at least so I can bet the under. I'm sure it's not proven to be the cash cow someone hoped it would be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-12120104906353455992012-05-24T14:35:40.965-07:002012-05-24T14:35:40.965-07:00On the portability of US JDs abroad, I too am a bi...On the portability of US JDs abroad, I too am a bit skeptical. I graduated in 1998, worked at Biglaw, then at Notsobiglaw, then emigrated to Western Europe about a year ago. Anecdotally, I am told by local friends and family (executive types) that companies with international operations DO love to hire American lawyers. And there do seem to be a lot of in-house job listings here for English speakers (no local bar required, but by "English speakers" they do mean "bilingual"). That said -- I am still looking.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-68320225556929389812012-05-24T12:36:55.417-07:002012-05-24T12:36:55.417-07:00re (4)(d):
I suspect that that comment is most re...re (4)(d):<br /><br />I suspect that that comment is most relevant for some subset of Asian Americans (7.4% of law school enrollment nationally in 07-08, tending to be higher at more prestigious schools).<br /><br />@6:23am - Much of that is correct throughout Asia, but if one is talking about Korea, Japan or India as opposed to China, YMMV. For example, in-house at Japanese firms will likely require language skills, but wouldn't expect anyone (Japanese, Japanese American or non Japanese American) to be a member of the Japanese bar. I'm familiar with several Korean Americans (really 1-1/2 generation) who've returned to S Korea to practice with 2nd tier US JDs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-76498087044109621342012-05-24T06:40:46.672-07:002012-05-24T06:40:46.672-07:00And I share your anger and your frustration. Not ...And I share your anger and your frustration. Not just for myself, but for you. It should have been an elevator to the upper-middle class. I want to live in a community that does well and my community does not do well if the next generation doesn't do well. We are very much on the same side.<br /><br />I am curious at your hostility to the AAJ (and yes, I liked it when it was the ATLA---I say be proud of what you are--apologize to no one.) Anyway, if you read this point, I really want you to tell me. I don't know everything---in fact, the older I get I realize I know very little.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01659995537790248686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-34289669730163493982012-05-24T06:35:49.035-07:002012-05-24T06:35:49.035-07:00^ this is an example of that law where in an inter...^ this is an example of that law where in an interenet argument it will only that so many posts until someone resorts to mentioning hitler, jews, or wwiiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-15522709675837969292012-05-24T06:28:17.693-07:002012-05-24T06:28:17.693-07:00Ms. Dennis--
Great post. Although the concept of...Ms. Dennis--<br /><br />Great post. Although the concept of law school accreditation in the hands of the AAJ fka ATLA is hilarious. <br /><br />I was born in 1972, which puts me firmly in the middle of Generation X. I've been practicing for about 15 years (gosh, that's depressing). <br /><br />I think that when people in my generation (or the younger generation) gripe about "Baby Boomers," they are not complaining about individuals as much as the structural changes that seem to make it impossible to have the same lifestyle as our parents.<br /><br />The bottom line is most of my generation went to law school thinking it was an elevator to the middle or upper-middle class. There's a lot of frustration to find that not only is is NOT, but that we'd (possibly) have been better off in the low end entry level jobs we abandoned for law school.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-63901676353124265532012-05-24T06:23:40.408-07:002012-05-24T06:23:40.408-07:00I currently live in Asia. Here is the hiring situa...I currently live in Asia. Here is the hiring situation:<br /><br />1. Big firms only hire lawyers who are currently employed by other big firms or have large portable books.<br /><br />2. Recruiters will not speak to you unless you have a "perfect" resume.<br /><br />3. Small firms highly prefer you to have local language skills even if the legal language of the jurisdiction is English.<br /><br />4. You are competing for jobs with an ocean of ABCs (Chinese born abroad) and "sea turtles" (Chinese educated in the West and returning to the region), not to mention grads of the local schools. <br /><br />5. It can take roughly a year to become barred in a local jurisdiction.<br /><br />6. In-house departments prefer that you be barred locally.<br /><br />7. You are in a much stronger position if you already have a local work permit, relieving the potential employer of the responsibility of sponsoring you and waiting for government approval. <br /><br />8. In many jurisdictions, the client with the most connected attorney wins. You are not connected.<br /><br />9. Americans will be shocked at the low pay offered for Asian legal jobs (outside the large firms).<br /><br />10. Think about the snootiest, most status-conscious, most paper-credential-obsessed lawyer you know. In Asia, that's the laid-back, open-minded partner.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-14907060864538807692012-05-24T06:01:15.519-07:002012-05-24T06:01:15.519-07:00@9:05
" Those jobs are horrid and the ABA, i...@9:05<br /><br />" Those jobs are horrid and the ABA, if it truly represents all attorneys, should be done away with. They just reward the current baby boomers and reward them for their luck at being in top in this climate."<br /><br />You make some great points in your post, and your anger is more than justified, but I have to call you out on the above statements: the ABA does not reward all baby boomers---just the ones in big law and academia. The small firm lawyers are on their own. That is why most of my colleagues in the plaintiff's bar utterly disdain the ABA. We probably hate them as much as you young lawyers. <br /><br />Do you honestly think that our baby boomer status keeps us immune from the effects of the over-crowding of this profession on our income and ability to pay our overhead? Do you honestly think we small law baby boomers (the majority of practicing lawyers, by the way) don't know that the ABA leadership is comprised of big firm, silk-stocking types that hold those of us that represent regular people in utter contempt? Oh yes, they will condescend to pander to us now and again with some spotlight in their stupid magazine about a "small, entrepreneur lawyer", but they hold the ordinary lawyer, baby boomer or not, in utter contempt. Do you think the baby boomer, small lawyer has enjoyed seeing our profession turn to crap and find that the important work we do is viewed by you younger lawyers as contemptible ("shitlaw", really?)---a view, I may add, that has been fostered by biglaw and most of academia. Well, fuck them. I assure you, it is not contemptible. <br /><br />The truth is---except for those in big law, and the small law idiots who long to be in big law, the other 50% of baby boomer lawyers are on your side on this issue. Unfortunately, because of the state of the legal profession, we have to spend too much time just trying to make overhead and make a living to fight the ABA and its big-law/academic dictators. Hell, most of us aren't even members. In my view, a small law lawyer joining the ABA in 2012, is like a Jewish person joining the Nazi party in in 1938. (And yes, I know that the last comment will raise howls---well, dear reader, if you don't like it, fuck you too---the economic life of my profession is at stake here.)<br /><br />Put accreditation in the hands of the small-law organization, the American Association for Justice, and the closing of law schools would happen so fast it would make your head spin. <br /><br />Don't indict my entire generation, please. Not all of us deserve it---in fact, most of us don't.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01659995537790248686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-79424847163381703112012-05-24T05:29:58.757-07:002012-05-24T05:29:58.757-07:00With all respect DJM, the notion that green law sc...With all respect DJM, the notion that green law school grads are valued abroad for jobs sufficient to pay their debt is fanciful at best.<br /><br />If the hypothetical grad when to law school after three years with the department of state, then they have a marketable skill. K-JD . . . not so much.terry malloynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-42384542610053138452012-05-24T03:47:30.588-07:002012-05-24T03:47:30.588-07:00Key word there being "few."Key word there being "few."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-36235273231052820802012-05-23T23:11:26.646-07:002012-05-23T23:11:26.646-07:00I agree with 9:05 PM that Lawprof is sorely missed...I agree with 9:05 PM that Lawprof is sorely missed, but DJM's posts are better than nothing while we wait for his return. I thought this was the best post she's come up with yet. However, I did feel like she was completely out of touch with practionitioners by suggesting that law firms would pay for technical training from law professors. Can't imagine any corporate lawyer doing that. They might pay a little for needed CLE credit, though.<br /><br />As for 4d, I work in China. The market is not as bad as it is in the U.S. If you come out here as a fresh grad, you might be able to get a very low paid position at a local law firm and work up from that (if you can speak some Chinese that's even better). I've seen it done, but that would be a hard route. If you can get in the biglaw door in the U.S. and can speak some Chinese, however, you have a very good shot at making it out here. In any case, for you younger folks in college or law school, doesn't hurt to start studying Chinese--you probably won't learn much of anything else that is too practically useful in school.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-23885567587290781652012-05-23T22:39:14.524-07:002012-05-23T22:39:14.524-07:00There are a few great jobs for US lawyers abroad. ...There are a few great jobs for US lawyers abroad. I have one of them, and there are another dozen or so in my office. But bear in mind, please, that these are not entry-level jobs. I won't say that I and my colleagues are an elite group--there is only one HYS grad among us. But there's no one in the office who hasn't spent many years in the States developing needful skills. We're even less inclined that most US employers to complete someone's legal education.<br /><br />PubliusAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-22511454062057037472012-05-23T22:38:31.427-07:002012-05-23T22:38:31.427-07:00Re: (3) attracting more international students.
N...Re: (3) attracting more international students.<br /><br />Now that the domestic racket has reached its peak, it's about pulling in more foreigners who are still blinded by the glitzy prestige of 'studying in America'. A tragicomic example: the recently emigrated Chinese dissident Chen Guacheng wants to study law in the US. Talk about "out of the frying pan into the fire". <br /><br />Are LLMs internationally transportable degrees? Does anybody care about those (1-2 years) courses? Maybe it's a nice bonus for those who already have something real. But I suspect it's a niche market, at least for international students.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-55596499525390614732012-05-23T21:05:38.565-07:002012-05-23T21:05:38.565-07:00Uggh - DJM, you are a nice person but an utterly c...Uggh - DJM, you are a nice person but an utterly clueless academic. 4(b) above is a joke. You do those fucking jobs for a few years carrying massive loans and then get back to me. That crap reads like a TTT brochure trying to entice clueless potential JDs. Those jobs are horrid and the ABA, if it truly represents all attorneys, should be done away with. They just reward the current baby boomers and reward them for their luck at being in top in this climate.<br /><br />4(d) is just utter bullshit. Please, just spare us. Again, you sound like a TTT brochure. Please let us all know about all of these magical jobs abroad, in countries that have their own reqs, that need a US JD. It just sounds like you sit in a circle jerk during a faculty meeting brainstorming answers with absolutely no practical experience.<br /><br />Sorry for sounding harsh but we do not need another clueless academic poking around in the dark providing BS conjecture. Our lives have been filled with out. Its bad enough that the discussion threads have devolved into baby boomers e-stroking each other (MacK excepted)…baby boomers who were on the receiving end of 10% of the crap we've had to deal with…now we have to read to your pollyanish posts? Enough with lawprofs…we already have one…and it took him months just to get to the point where he fully understands the scumbags and the scum they create.<br /><br />Lawprof - I've been here from the beginning and I've had it out with you a few times about the subject matter….but I've always respected you. Its been really nice to see the evolution in your thought process and how much the tone and substance of your posts have changed. But having another lawprof post is a huge step back. Please have someone who lives in the real world and understands the day to day of young attorneys post, if you're going to have anyone at all.<br /><br />Just one man's opinion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-73646916201792076762012-05-23T20:58:21.132-07:002012-05-23T20:58:21.132-07:00The hillman exception was clever, too.The hillman exception was clever, too.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01659995537790248686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-45065993767252114632012-05-23T20:51:08.650-07:002012-05-23T20:51:08.650-07:00DJM
Loved poor Raleigh's video! Ah, the good...DJM<br /><br />Loved poor Raleigh's video! Ah, the good ole' days. Perhaps if I had you for evidence, I wouldn't have spent the first five years of my career bumping into the furniture. I have finally grasped the hearsay rule, but I will never break my habit of asking too many leading questions on direct. Do you have a video for that? LOL (Of course, as one judge recently pointed out to me, if we didn't ask leading questions, a simple carwreck case would last for two weeks.)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01659995537790248686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-44176511615405420262012-05-23T19:08:13.940-07:002012-05-23T19:08:13.940-07:00Something I found:
Just as college seniors prepa...Something I found:<br /><br /><br />Just as college seniors prepare to graduate, experts are warning about an alarming new trend. More students are declaring bankruptcy to help get out from under a mountain of student loan debt.<br /> <br />“We are starting to see the first big wave,” says Christina Henry, a bankruptcy attorney at Seattle Debt Law.<br /> <br />Henry said she has seen a notable increase recently in clients coming to her with student loan debt. Unlike most debt, student loans cannot be discharged through bankruptcy, so Henry is working with students to pay off other loans so they can focus on the student debt.<br /> <br />“In my opinion, we are going to see a whole generation of people where standard of living is going to be diminished because they can’t find a job to keep up with payments,” she said. “Most people don’t understand the terms on these student loans are inflexible.”<br /> <br />Total student loan debt just reached $1 trillion this year in the U.S. That's higher than total credit card debt. About two-thirds of college graduates have some student loans to pay off, and their average debt is about $25,000 to $28,700, according to estimates by education experts and organizations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-22870947084127222522012-05-23T16:18:52.675-07:002012-05-23T16:18:52.675-07:00Empirical evidence shows that based upon the retur...Empirical evidence shows that based upon the return to loss ratio as opposed the projected growth factor of extant and other immediate investment prospects, both short term and long term, the manifest risks tangentially associated with investment in legal education as compared with the obvious benefits of immediate return of scratch off lottery ticket speculation suggests that an ordinary citizen of higher education is on par with, and on equal footing for prosperity in the United States with the concupiscent lottery winner....<br /><br />oh you figure it outAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-66544753831956261562012-05-23T16:18:09.584-07:002012-05-23T16:18:09.584-07:00@8:53am - you miss the point about IBR.
IBR, when...@8:53am - you miss the point about IBR.<br /><br />IBR, when you actually run the figures, helps only the worst-paid employees, like poverty level. For everyone else, the government has cleverly set the IBR calculations so that by the time the minimum payments have been paid, there is nothing left to forgive!<br /><br />IBR is one of the biggest scams out there, second only to law school.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-64620473959286261812012-05-23T16:14:55.497-07:002012-05-23T16:14:55.497-07:00@8:03pm: "Getting a law degree 10 years ago w...@8:03pm: "Getting a law degree 10 years ago was a good way to shoot yourself in the foot for a few years before entering the middle class. Now it's a good way to shoot yourself in the head."<br /><br />I can personally attest to this fact. I graduated in '04, and I'm just now returning to the middle class, in a non-law job, after seven years of horror in the legal job market - or to be more precise, the lack of a legal job market. But I feel for those idiots - er, I mean, "students" (Baby Boomer Professor Retirement Suckers), who are going to law school now...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-34563587061078688752012-05-23T16:10:12.582-07:002012-05-23T16:10:12.582-07:00tdennis, snarky is always fine--especially from a ...tdennis, snarky is always fine--especially from a well established practitioner! I'm curious to see whether law schools manage to make a go of this. I think they may try, given revenue pressures, although I was interested in the comment about a school that had already tried this and failed. <br /><br />I enjoy trying my hand at CLEs on evidence, although I don't do too many. For the crowd's possible amusement, here are two Xtranormal videos I created for a CLE. The first illustrates the interplay of rules against character evidence in federal civil cases, and the second acknowledges the bad legal job market while exploring some issues related to social media. I use these in class too, just to mix things up.<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2_ReWBTgKs&list=UU52OwLLx0ICZht_PorY96YA&index=3&feature=plcp<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L4mZXLJuyk&list=UU52OwLLx0ICZht_PorY96YA&index=2&feature=plcpDJMhttp://moritzlaw.osu.edu/faculty/bios.php?ID=38noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-8132167751752650742012-05-23T15:28:29.596-07:002012-05-23T15:28:29.596-07:00Just to engage in some speculation, I wonder if AB...Just to engage in some speculation, I wonder if ABA requirements and declining enrollments at law schools might cause a few schools to close. I am thinking in particular of law schools attached to state funded universities in states where state aid is declining. Most university departments can cut costs by pushing more teaching duties off on adjuncts and teaching assistants. <br /><br />ABA rules prevent more than a certain number of classes from being taught by adjuncts. So law schools are stuck paying full-time faculty. I would not be surprised to see a situation where a university faced with tight finances and a sharp decline in law school enrollment might decide to close the entire law school to get rid of the costs of so much full time faculty and administration. <br /><br />As word continues to spread to 0Ls about the financial risks of law school compared to the often minimal rewards, the time may come when there will not be enough applicants to fill enough seats to make law schools cost effective for some universities. <br /><br />Again, this is just speculation, but it doesn't seem to be an entirely unrealistic possibility.T Moneynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-7361993362414882392012-05-23T15:21:25.535-07:002012-05-23T15:21:25.535-07:0010:52 and others asking about jobs abroad: I see t...10:52 and others asking about jobs abroad: I see this change as a trickle (the current number of grads emigrating) that will grow to a small rivulet. The actual number of affected grads will still be quite small in two years, but I think it's an important part of the market to think about--partly because we'll be fried globally if we don't start thinking this way. <br /><br />Most of these jobs, sadly, won't be partnership-track positions in large firms; many will be with legal process outsourcers or as nonpracticing staff attorneys at foreign firms or corporations.<br /><br />I realize that, reading my prediction against the steady drone of law school promotional materials (jobs! jobs! jobs here! jobs there!), this might have sounded more optimistic than I intended it. I see this as a trend that will grow slowly over the next two years and continue beyond that; not as a panacea for the JD jobs crisis in the US. Note, however: schools that increase LLM or foreign JD enrollment might try to tap those students to help US JD's who want to go abroad. That won't be a big lift, but it could be a useful move.DJMhttp://moritzlaw.osu.edu/faculty/bios.php?ID=38noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-8204468407755053342012-05-23T15:15:12.663-07:002012-05-23T15:15:12.663-07:00I agree with tdeniss239, practicing lawyers will h...I agree with tdeniss239, practicing lawyers will have no use for law school classes. Pretty much every lawyer I know already resents the expense [in $$ + time] for mandatory CLE. It's pretty much a joke, at least here in NY. I can't really imagine what any law professor could offer, especially at what would undoubtedly be an enormous sticker price.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com