tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post6586747387519220357..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: How many jobs?LawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-24735951369977166572012-09-09T18:06:56.992-07:002012-09-09T18:06:56.992-07:00I am curious to hear ideas on alternative areas of...I am curious to hear ideas on alternative areas of reform. My medium sized state has too many law schools. Only 25% of which can be considered nationally renowned. Every single one of our law schools has a bar passage rate in the high 80s or low 90s. I am curious whether others feel the employment situation might be partially remedied by the state bar requiring more extensive examination. By this would propose not only a more difficult bar but also an examination process after the first year of law school. The hope is that 10-20% of the lowest performing students could cut their losses off after the first year of school should they fail to succeed in passing the first year bar exam. The other component, of course, is to have both a bar exam and first year exam that actually reflects legal skills needed to be a lawyer. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-48846711925479578472012-09-08T20:29:09.597-07:002012-09-08T20:29:09.597-07:00I hope that you will indeed say more about (2). Fr...I hope that you will indeed say more about (2). From my angle, it appears that the OCIs are for the children of the wealthy, and that others have little chance. Qualifications take second billing to identity.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-25461830503972375612012-09-08T20:12:15.181-07:002012-09-08T20:12:15.181-07:00"International law" is sexy, like sports..."International law" is sexy, like sports law, entertainment law, and other fake "specialties" with just about zero practitioners.<br /><br />Glassy-eyed 0Ls fancy themselves flying all over the globe to rub elbows with diplomats, pausing frequently to dally on the Champs-Élysées or on the beaches of Ipanema. Such is the allure of "international law". <br /><br />In fact, the hobnobbing and the treaties are left to diplomats, not lawyers—and certainly not to some half-ass kid with a 149 on the LSAT at an upstart law school in Fort Wayne.<br /><br />No law school hypes up its program in defending against tickets for drunk driving or settling insurance claims. There's nothing flashy about those specialties. Never mind that they do offer work, unlike "international law" and the rest.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-68039454038324851442012-09-08T19:14:47.408-07:002012-09-08T19:14:47.408-07:00http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.ph...http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=181723<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-30285596969256884112012-09-08T19:07:31.562-07:002012-09-08T19:07:31.562-07:00Good point about the law-school funded jobs. These...Good point about the law-school funded jobs. These numbers do include some of those--the ones that require bar admission. Grads doing research for professors or working in the law school's administrative offices should be coded "JD advantage." But grads working in law offices with law school funding would count as "bar required."<br /><br />But a 17% drop in job openings is huge--especially when you consider that only three-quarters of law grads got "bar admission required" jobs even during the good years (see the next post).DJMhttp://moritzlaw.osu.edu/faculty/bios.php?ID=38noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-10249094724293203952012-09-08T19:01:12.102-07:002012-09-08T19:01:12.102-07:00The comments on this thread have been really good....The comments on this thread have been really good. Could it have anything to do with the attributes of people who opt to spend their Sat night here? Flattered to be counted amongst you all.Jonathan Cranenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-64450389042772086012012-09-08T18:59:33.482-07:002012-09-08T18:59:33.482-07:00I agree that this would be useful. I left that inf...I agree that this would be useful. I left that info out of this post, because things were getting too long. But I've added a new post with that information.DJMhttp://moritzlaw.osu.edu/faculty/bios.php?ID=38noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-38005793852764494122012-09-08T18:49:44.053-07:002012-09-08T18:49:44.053-07:006:20: LOL!
I sincerely hope that Law Prof addr...6:20: LOL! <br /><br />I sincerely hope that Law Prof addresses the trend of "international law" in the legal academy. It's advertised on brochures, new faculty members are being hired in it, law reviews seem to like it, and as far as I can tell . . . produces very few jobs.<br /><br />Are schools pitching international law as a way to attract undergrads? If not, what is motivating this trend?<br /><br /><br />Jonathan Cranenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-54797438118970436852012-09-08T18:43:04.317-07:002012-09-08T18:43:04.317-07:00These numbers are actually quite good considering ...These numbers are actually quite good considering the direction of law school enrollment. If enrollment continues to decline, and these numbers stay the same in 5-10 years there could actually be a shortage of lawyers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-15564616870816061422012-09-08T18:42:48.041-07:002012-09-08T18:42:48.041-07:00U mad? U mad? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-9005527094604483592012-09-08T18:24:51.034-07:002012-09-08T18:24:51.034-07:00Couple of things:
(1) Keep in mind that these sta...Couple of things:<br /><br />(1) Keep in mind that these statistics, dismal as they are, are almost certainly significantly biased toward making the outcomes for new law graduates look better than they are. Law school CSOs are under tremendous pressure to spin the employment outcomes for their graduates in the most favorable way possible, and, given the very loose reporting system, it's highly likely plenty of people who don't have real legal jobs end up getting categorized as if they do. I'll have more to say about this in a post.<br /><br />(2) As to why a bunch of people at top ten schools aren't getting legal jobs if hiring overall is down "only" 17% from its 2007 peak, see (1), but also keep in mind that there's no longer anything like a natural entry point into the legal profession for people who don't get a job through the OCI process. I'll also have more to say about this.LawProfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-89705730064568316492012-09-08T18:23:38.996-07:002012-09-08T18:23:38.996-07:00"In the "trial court" clinic, a fac..."In the "trial court" clinic, a faculty member will serve as a clearinghouse for the trial judges in Allen County, Indiana, and surrounding counties. The professor will supervise a team of law students who will be “on call” to provide law clerk assistance to the trial judges as needed. In Indiana, not all state court trial judges have full-time law clerks so the availability of a pool of law clerks should permit the local trial bench to examine more conveniently issues of first impression and complex questions of law."<br /><br />Wishful thinking. Which judge is going to entrust "complex questions of law" to people stupid enough to matriculate at this shithole?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-71542962228815261182012-09-08T18:21:37.492-07:002012-09-08T18:21:37.492-07:00Just stop all federal guaranteed student loans to ...Just stop all federal guaranteed student loans to all law school. Watch the tuition drop.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-85273640533694963972012-09-08T18:20:37.860-07:002012-09-08T18:20:37.860-07:00"In the United Nations Human Rights Treaty cl..."In the United Nations Human Rights Treaty clinic, law students will be given the opportunity, under the supervision of a full-time faculty member, to write “shadow reports” for non-governmental organizations that act as monitoring committees to document the progress (or lack thereof) of member states that have adopted international treaties."<br /><br />Does anyone seriously believe that the graduates of this risible would-be law school will ever be involved in the drafting of international treaties?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-52637309199585013662012-09-08T18:17:32.168-07:002012-09-08T18:17:32.168-07:00It has to be Leiter.It has to be Leiter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-63747923586534778662012-09-08T18:15:43.752-07:002012-09-08T18:15:43.752-07:00The gunners don't have jobs either.The gunners don't have jobs either.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-74169882189319293042012-09-08T18:10:21.149-07:002012-09-08T18:10:21.149-07:00This is a good point. School hiring of significan...This is a good point. School hiring of significant numbers of students masks a part of the drop in hiring. I be the drop, if all schools had been reporting to NALP is way over 17% ( not sure why the above poster dropped it down to16%)<br /><br />For an interesting look at unemployment from the top 14 schools, look at the spreadsheet and graph prepared by a poster on TLS.<br />The thread is called detailed class of 2011 UN-employment data. Once again, I can't post the link from my phone. I will post from a computer tomorrow.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-90561632162021007192012-09-08T17:55:59.102-07:002012-09-08T17:55:59.102-07:005:41: Good point. Students might not apply to sm...5:41: Good point. Students might not apply to smaller markets because they can't afford to take those jobs, and thus they keep trying for something else.<br /><br />I've heard rumors of students turning down job offers that were low-paying or lacking in prestige in favor of a school funded fellowship on the theory that they'd be better off working for a prestigious public interest group on the school's dime and then trying again for a better job.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-32191236604998187432012-09-08T17:54:47.280-07:002012-09-08T17:54:47.280-07:00Indeed, law school financed primarily with debt no...Indeed, law school financed primarily with debt no longer makes sense—except at a handful of very prestigious schools, and even those should not be rushed into blindly. And if Harvard at full price is a questionable proposition, Bumblefuck at a similar price should not even be considered.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-30251863823754426042012-09-08T17:54:13.962-07:002012-09-08T17:54:13.962-07:00JD Painterguy apparently leveraged his JD from Tou...JD Painterguy apparently leveraged his JD from Touro into a successful house painting business. I guess that is why he looks down on the people who work the oil fields of North Dakota. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-45887434654024714652012-09-08T17:49:17.165-07:002012-09-08T17:49:17.165-07:00Another point about the NALP stats: what kind of ...Another point about the NALP stats: what kind of job counts as "full-time?" I assume they are counting things like one-year state clerkships and one-year public interest fellowships paid for by law schools, both of which are temporary?Probably not Posnernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-52434402366064665812012-09-08T17:41:53.209-07:002012-09-08T17:41:53.209-07:00You are missing a very important point. Big law i...You are missing a very important point. Big law is the only job that makes it possible to justify law school cost ( at least in my opinion, for most people).<br /> <br />Many big law firms remain well below - even 100 people or so- lower than they were before the recession. At the same time, the other jobs that might make law school worth it financially for public interest attorneys, jobs that qualify for forgiveness after 10 years, have become even more impossible to find. <br /><br />The number of summer associates at 500+ firms nationwide was under 3000- about 2800 a cording to NALP.<br /><br />The jobs that could theoretically make law school not a complete financial disaster have been greatly reduced. <br /><br />On top of that, many firms are laying off junior associates through stealth layoffs . White and case has fired first year associates. They are not alone. So even of you think you have won law school, you can easily be kicked out on your ass. <br /><br />The almost impossibility of getting jobs is so hard for 0Ls to accept. They think that getting a job is like getting into school- if you have the credentials you should get a job. This is not how hiring works. Many kids with great credentials can strike out because they are just trying too hard to get a job or for whatever reason a firm dings them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-2854265124760491562012-09-08T17:38:29.078-07:002012-09-08T17:38:29.078-07:00There are ways to address the underrepresentation ...There are ways to address the underrepresentation of minority groups without opening a goddamn hopeless law school at some technical college in Fort Wayne.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-75242559956910214322012-09-08T17:36:14.004-07:002012-09-08T17:36:14.004-07:00Students there probably don't even think of ap...Students there probably don't even think of applying to a firm in some distant small town. And if they do apply, they'll probably seem suspect. "Why is this top student from the U of Michigan applying to my little firm in Smalltown, Virginia? She must have a skeleton in her closet."<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-60432147119076056122012-09-08T17:35:52.587-07:002012-09-08T17:35:52.587-07:005:26. I agree. Limiting the schools at which loa...5:26. I agree. Limiting the schools at which loans can be used is going to be really hard politically. Blogs like this need to get out the message that we aren't helping anyone by allowing them to go into debt to attend Indiana Tech. The scam story needs to go mainstream.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com