tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post6461987793789643705..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: The absurdity of UC-IrvineLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger106125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-24038554009518914732013-02-22T19:43:47.906-08:002013-02-22T19:43:47.906-08:00This website was... how do I say it? Relevant!
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Contact Mr. James Bone via email: (bestloansfinance02@gmail.com)<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-49972123984522527642012-11-30T12:13:28.174-08:002012-11-30T12:13:28.174-08:0090% pass rate90% pass rateAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-54463575766453222572012-08-02T11:56:43.540-07:002012-08-02T11:56:43.540-07:00Anonymous @ 5:10, the argument made earlier was th...Anonymous @ 5:10, the argument made earlier was that the statistics generated by UCI were very likely inflated, due to unsustainable money spent during the start-up (e.g., offer almost free tuition to the first class).Barry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-58227793138655052402012-07-26T17:10:55.392-07:002012-07-26T17:10:55.392-07:00If the argument is really that we can't afford...If the argument is really that we can't afford to have as many public law schools as we do, why is no one talking about closing down Hastings or Davis? From what I've seen UCI beats both of them in every category (admissions statistics, student/faculty ratio, faculty rankings, employment placement statistics, clerkships). Shouldn't we be dropping the *worst* public law school, rather than the most recent?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-78601160407009022042012-07-25T08:20:38.031-07:002012-07-25T08:20:38.031-07:00One point, following Orin and DJM. I suspect law s...One point, following Orin and DJM. I suspect law schools won't lower salaries, but rather will increase teaching loads from 10 to 12 credits a year (or maybe more). The effect will be to shrink the faculty, without doing anything quite so disruptive as cutting pay. I believe Hastings has done this just this year.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-34731605975626746682012-07-25T07:39:02.545-07:002012-07-25T07:39:02.545-07:00Isen't Law Prof salary inflated due to the pot...Isen't Law Prof salary inflated due to the potential head hunting of top faculty at universities. <br /><br />I went to a tier 2 and one of my profs was making the same as a professor would make at Yale. But he was also the most prolific publisher. <br /><br />I also am trying to grapple the concept of law reviews and academic journals at lower ranked schools being anything more than an academic circle jerk(excuse my language). They cost a bloody fortune.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-25998937140478947862012-07-24T20:38:55.175-07:002012-07-24T20:38:55.175-07:00Re: Orin Kerr's claims above that if salaries ...Re: Orin Kerr's claims above that if salaries are cut "profs might do less scholarship and consult more to try to make up the difference?"<br /><br />1. Who cares if they do less scholarship? That's like holding a profitable garage sale and mourning the worthless trash you sacrificed.<br /><br />2. Won't certain prestige-whores be incentivized to do MORE worthless scholarship? This industry is run by egomaniacs with an inflated sense of self-worth. The way you stand out - and schools like the T-14 hire you - is often by publishing something that gets noticed. The time-honored way of getting noticed for 90% of academics and 100% of pseudo-academics is by publishing early and often. Does Orin have any evidence for the claim that salary has any correlation for publishing output?<br /><br />3. Who, exactly, is hiring the average law prof as a consultant?! Firms are cutting budgets for such things, and law profs generally don't offer any trial-useful expertise (not even in a legal malpractice case). BigLaw partners have more experience in both litigation strategizing and transactional work, so what exactly are they going to hire a lawprof to "consult" on?!<br /><br />"Hey, Billy, you were an associate at [T100 firm/US Dist. Atty's office] and washed out after three years! We'd love to pay you coin to come "consult" with us on patent law in India / law and feminism / 17th century trover actions / the FRE in reality TV dispute resolution / useless blather about obscure finance law / etc."<br /><br />How the hell does that work? If you sucker one person into paying you double your market value, surely you can con someone else?Craignoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-37864699516846266702012-07-24T18:40:37.906-07:002012-07-24T18:40:37.906-07:00@ 6:05-- So , there should only be 14 law schools ...@ 6:05-- So , there should only be 14 law schools in the country?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-81859691098891441032012-07-24T18:14:32.163-07:002012-07-24T18:14:32.163-07:00I mean @1:48I mean @1:48Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-72136382149150273082012-07-24T18:13:34.302-07:002012-07-24T18:13:34.302-07:00Shut the front door, Orin Kerr said that! (@1:53) ...Shut the front door, Orin Kerr said that! (@1:53) Mad props, OK.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-48458361645440820232012-07-24T18:05:50.801-07:002012-07-24T18:05:50.801-07:00Anonymous 4:09: another HYS grad who used to be in...Anonymous 4:09: another HYS grad who used to be interested in academia who now feels the same as you do. I'm floored that our fellow alums - with full knowledge of the current market - are willing to go on the meat market and take jobs outside the T14. Not for "prestige" reasons, but because I have to believe they understand that it is unethical to have a significant portion of their salaries paid by the loans of students who have no serious prospect of legal employment.<br /><br />I find it easier to forgive academics who took their jobs 10, 20, or 30 years ago, when they could be fairly well assured that students from their schools would get jobs. But today's "aspiring academics" who will accept non-T14 placements? They seem to be the most unethical of the lot.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-37213204206525692362012-07-24T17:38:16.051-07:002012-07-24T17:38:16.051-07:00@ 4:08pm
There's no question that, in "g...@ 4:08pm<br /><br />There's no question that, in "general", a real experienced practitioner is going to be a better instructor than some pure academic with no real world experience just regurgitating from outlines.<br /><br />HOWEVER, prestige of your faculty isn't measured by how good you are as a teacher. It is primarily measured by your pedigree (where you went to law school, clerked, etc). That's it.<br /><br />You could be the greatest instructor of crim law due to your extensive background as a public defender or prosecutor and your great teaching skills. But if your "pedigree" is low, it won't add to the "prestige" of your school's faculty list.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-69112260580168748892012-07-24T17:00:27.124-07:002012-07-24T17:00:27.124-07:00DJM
You Go Girl! Actually, there will always be ...DJM<br /><br />You Go Girl! Actually, there will always be a market for clear-eyed realists like yourself. You would do just fine.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01659995537790248686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-52626068146355640372012-07-24T16:54:35.179-07:002012-07-24T16:54:35.179-07:00"Law professor salaries provoke me to fury.&q..."Law professor salaries provoke me to fury."<br /><br />That may be the truest thing ever posted here!<br /><br />Fact remains that this is a market economy, and it's harder to get a lawprof job than a job as a public defender. Even Campos makes 170K.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-31134459576327158352012-07-24T16:52:45.636-07:002012-07-24T16:52:45.636-07:00Some more information on UCI law school. In 2008 ...Some more information on UCI law school. In 2008 they received a "founding endowment" of $20,000,000 from Donald Bren an Orange County real estate grandee and the owner of the Irvine Company. In consideration for which the school was to carry his name. Seeing the problem of having a right wing Republican billionaire on their building they somehow talked him into dropping the name while retaining the $20,000,000. Presumably they have burned through a lot of this money in start up costs and scholarships for the first classes. But the man is reputed to be worth to be worth $12 billion and has given over a billion to other charities so maybe they'll make a go of it. William OckhamAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-44005866473125728202012-07-24T16:23:36.830-07:002012-07-24T16:23:36.830-07:00The jobs I think law professors would probably be ...The jobs I think law professors would probably be most "suited" for based on their skill sets would be high ranked government positions that are heavier on policy than they are on law. Professors at my law school seem to move between the academy and NYC, federal, and state government fairly frequently for 1-2 year stints. These are jobs that also happen to pay much lower than even tenured professor positions at my school and even a 50% cut in faculty salary would probably still be more than these jobs. They are also much higher pressure, as a now former prof of mine discovered when he joined a city agency as a high level bureaucrat. <br /><br />Re: UCI, they love to plug their double digit federal clerkship rate. I wonder whether that is sustainable. I think we know how they are doing it (low class size in the early classes + faculties really hammering away at their black books calling in every marker they can.) It is unlikely this is sustainable. UCI will not be able to maintain high federal clerkship placement even if they enter as a top 20 school, and without offering close to full scholarships anymore they will not be able to attract high 160 LSAT students, so big firms and other prestigious employers are not going to disproportionately recruit from there even with such a "quality" faculty. Once the Dean burns through his capital with judges, his students are going to be SOL. <br /><br />The real bet is whether the school can debut high enough to get enough butts in the seats to make its operating budget.BoredJDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-72689501565613700172012-07-24T16:19:10.550-07:002012-07-24T16:19:10.550-07:00Let's assume that the constant babble from UCI...Let's assume that the constant babble from UCI about being a law school that is dedicated to training lawyers for a career in the public interest isn't just some public relations stunt to justify an otherwise unjustifiable law school. Let's assume that all of its graduates can and do get jobs in public interest law. Their tuition is $50,000 a year and the total cost of their education is over $250,000. Their salaries will be in the mid five figures. This means that no UCI law grad, not one, will be able to pay their student loan. William OckhamAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-76208658033308737992012-07-24T16:09:25.617-07:002012-07-24T16:09:25.617-07:00I'm a law student who will probably be competi...I'm a law student who will probably be competitive on the meat market if I go that route (HYS, other graduate work, etc.). I don't plan on going that route because of the ethics of it, but I've thought about it.<br /><br />I'll say this: If I could choose between a job that gave me 250k per year but devastated the lives of the majority of my students and a job that gave me 100k and had tuition costs that reflected the value of a typical T50 law degree (say, 10k a year), I'd choose the 100k salary without hesitation. Maybe I don't make the same choice if I'm acclimated to making 250k as a lawprof, but starting out I certainly would.<br /><br />The quality argument is a red herring. What the quality argument amounts to is that the school won't attract the kind of candidates that will help it move up in the rankings, or produce the same amount of scholarship, etc. It has nothing to do with the quality of teaching and everything to do with the reputed "prestige" of the school.<br /><br />If a T50 was starting from scratch was offering 90-100k salaries to entry-level lawprofs it would have zero shortage of young and accomplished lawyers willing to take the positions. The school wouldn't get the "market stars" but its unclear they make the best teachers anyways.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-60227814245912143992012-07-24T16:08:47.654-07:002012-07-24T16:08:47.654-07:00Law professor salaries provoke me to fury. I excep...Law professor salaries provoke me to fury. I except the rare few who are great teachers, experienced lawyers, and whose scholarship is helpful to practitioners.<br /><br />Mr. Chemerinsky: If you want to hire a quality criminal law professor who will take a cushy law professor gig for way, way, way under 200K why not visit the local public defender's office? <br /><br />I am quite familiar with a certain appellate division of a public defender's office. The lawyers there (massively debt-ridden, thank you law schools) start at 55K. At 10 years, the lawyers make about 75K. This salary is frozen for the forseeable future in light of budget cuts. True, the job is interesting and socially useful--unlike many law jobs--but the production pace is grueling. <br /><br />After 10 years, these lawyers know criminal law and criminal procedure cold. They have briefed approximately every permutation of the fourth, fifth, and sixth amendment. They know all the hot statutory challenges in the state, and exercise their wits thinking of others. They have finely-honed written and oral argument skills. Many have taught in the appellate clinics that the office runs in conjunction with local law schools. Many have published law review articles based on issues and cases they have briefed and thought about.<br /><br />For a mere 75K/yr and the light workload of a law professor, these great lawyers are available as faculty, Mr. Chemerinsky, and the money you save on faculty pay can be passed on to students. What do you say? <br /><br />dybbukAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-20680140312613244152012-07-24T15:51:50.688-07:002012-07-24T15:51:50.688-07:00@ 3:05 PM
BTW, former dean Heidi Hurd is still to...@ 3:05 PM<br /><br />BTW, former dean Heidi Hurd is still touting the inflated data as one of the accomplishments of her tenure: "Under her deanship, the College of Law significantly increased incoming student credentials to place them among the nation's Top 15 based on LSAT scores and median GPA[.]"<br /><br />http://www.law.illinois.edu/faculty/profile/HeidiHurdAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-20116179976033928612012-07-24T15:42:44.617-07:002012-07-24T15:42:44.617-07:00tdennis, I agree completely. There was a time (20...tdennis, I agree completely. There was a time (20 years ago? 30?), when law firms might have hired an ex-professor at a fixed but decent wage as a senior consultant type. But those times are long gone. I would have a very hard time finding a job in law practice--certainly not one that pays my academic salary.<br /><br />But I'm pleased to report that I'm preparing for the worst. I have in my possession (no joke) the classic work, "The Specialist Chick Sexer" by R.D. Martin. I'm going to nail my interview with that ag guy!DJMhttp://moritzlaw.osu.edu/faculty/bios.php?ID=38noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-63339552201206773192012-07-24T15:23:20.888-07:002012-07-24T15:23:20.888-07:00Where exactly does the fine money go?Where exactly does the fine money go?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-6710929323816445482012-07-24T15:05:37.459-07:002012-07-24T15:05:37.459-07:00U of I News:
(Crain's) — The University of Ill...U of I News:<br />(Crain's) — The University of Illinois College of Law was fined $250,000 for publishing false admissions data that made six years of incoming classes look better on paper.<br /><br />***<br /><br />The ABA said that an unnamed assistant dean inflated 109 LSAT scores and 58 grade-point averages for the 2011 incoming class.<br />***<br /><br />U of I's law school will have to prominently display the ABA's public censure for two years on the home page of its website. In addition, it must publicly issue a corrective statement, hired a compliance monitor for this year and the 2013-14 academic year and end its early admissions process.<br /><br />***<br /><br />— Lorene Yue<br /><br />Read more: http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20120724/BLOGS08/120729886/university-of-illinois-law-school-fined-for-inflating-admissions-data#ixzz21a277FwtAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-66164271655550603962012-07-24T15:00:00.021-07:002012-07-24T15:00:00.021-07:001. Biglaw, small law, mid-law will not hire washe...1. Biglaw, small law, mid-law will not hire washed up law professors. I don't care how many Supreme Court justices they clerked for or how many articles they authored on Nietzche. It's about the coinage you can bring to the firm, not how much you can take away and under that scenario with former law professors the coinage will flow the wrong way.<br />2. Public interest groups might hire former law professors, but will pay them about 75k a year; they will need to produce something that persuades a jury or an appellate court (which means no dense theoretical crap); and they will need to do it with a skeletal support staff. I mean, sorry, but the Brookings Institute doesn't have that many openings for Nietzche lawyers. Most public interest organizations are hiring young Columbia grads who can handle working more than 25 hours a week.<br />3. For the very few that actually have some political connections, the Federales may hire a few, but it will not be at the prestige level a law professor believes is his or her due ( not Attorney General, not Supreme Court, not Ambassador to France). Maybe special counsel to the agricultural inspector general for chicken sexing.<br /><br />The rest are down here with us chickens pecking at the crumbs. Ergo, I believe, after discovering how arid are their prospects, they will take a huge cut in pay if it means they can stay in their pretend world (they pretend to teach/know the law and their students pretend to learn it).<br /><br />Sorry Prof Campose and Merritt. Not my intention to catch you in my sweeping generalizations.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01659995537790248686noreply@blogger.com