tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post6328094675246602212..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: Equal OpportunityLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger90125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-31867200274410947602012-11-02T16:33:48.692-07:002012-11-02T16:33:48.692-07:00The black students being admitted to T14 law schoo...The black students being admitted to T14 law schools are far from bumbling idiots. <br /><br />They are qualified and many go on to have great success at their firms. If they do not, it often results from self-selection into other firms or in-house positions for which the clients of their 1A employers recruit them. The discrimination they often experience at biglaw firms results in a self-fulfilling prophesy, but in no way are they les intelligent than their white and Asian comparators. <br /><br />If you want to talk about lack of relative "preparedness", that's another story; I would agree with you to a large degree. But the bell-curve theory to which so many of you Sander deciples stubbornly adhere is old and tired, and has been disproved time and again. URM students in general are not trained from an early age to master the English language, which is the centerpiece to all education. That's where the problem starts and continues to fester. A black lawyer posted that "black lawyers suffer the worse [sic]." <br /><br />A concerted effort to teach black and Hispanic children to master the English language will go a long ways towards removing the inequities in education and better preparing lawyers of color. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-66710890322614048632012-07-12T05:42:15.136-07:002012-07-12T05:42:15.136-07:00You've said it all beautiful. Such kind of pos...You've said it all beautiful. Such kind of post really helpful for the <a href="http://www.geniusabroad.com/EducationLoans.aspx" rel="nofollow"><b>Study Loan</b></a>.Education Portalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09631808230227958378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-30138255230872424562012-07-06T09:10:31.599-07:002012-07-06T09:10:31.599-07:00Jack Marshall of ethics alarms also noted that the...Jack Marshall of ethics alarms also noted that the law school scam doesn't really exist - rather it's made up by disgruntled law grads who can't find jobs with their magical, versatile degrees. And according to Jack Marshall, top law schools don't have to manipulate stats, as they have more than enough overqualified applicants.<br /><br />Jack Marshall knows what he is talking about. Jack Marshall is right. He's right. He's right. He's right.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-29649395439307227352012-07-06T08:04:57.394-07:002012-07-06T08:04:57.394-07:00Speaking of the LSAT, I'd be interested in the...Speaking of the LSAT, I'd be interested in the bloggers' thoughts on Bill Henderson's article in the current ABA Journal ("The Pedigree Problem: Are Law School Ties Choking the Profession?").<br /><br />http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/the_pedigree_problem_are_law_school_ties_choking_the_professionAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-285045013581822722012-07-06T07:03:03.486-07:002012-07-06T07:03:03.486-07:00Ten seconds with Google and the intertoobs turned ...Ten seconds with Google and the intertoobs turned up the following snippets (but be careful, they're also selling stuff here)... <br /><br />"...study by The National Jurist shows there is a clear correlation between incoming LSAT scores and bar exam performance."<br /><br />(and)<br /><br />"...While the LSAT is primarily designed to measure success in law school, it has long been known that law school success predicts bar exam success. As such, most law schools have bar exam pass rates that correlate to their incoming LSAT scores...."<br /><br />http://www.nationaljurist.com/content/best-schools-bar-exam-prep-0I_have_a_namehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17856509644618792070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-54503420233780924932012-07-06T06:59:23.090-07:002012-07-06T06:59:23.090-07:00^^^ Apologies, posted above before finishing my th...^^^ Apologies, posted above before finishing my thought. I should have concluded by noting Professor Yakowitz has real data cited that would appear to clearly Lewin's unsupported contentions that minority LS enrollment is dropping.I_have_a_namehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17856509644618792070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-27514526394000217052012-07-06T06:57:50.052-07:002012-07-06T06:57:50.052-07:009:01 AM writes "The focus is still interestin...9:01 AM writes "The focus is still interesting because, as you must know, enrollment of minorities in law school has been declining in the past several years. There have been numerous articles about this. "<br /><br /><br />I'd be interested to see any of these numerous articles. I suspect that these numerous articles all run from / quote / cite one very poorly researched NYTimes article by Lewin that the above-mentioned professor Jane Yakowitz referred to (in a rebuttal) as being [<i>I am paraphrasing from memory here</i>] "wrong in every conclusion and got the facts all wrong as well".I_have_a_namehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17856509644618792070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-76344563047654346422012-07-06T06:14:24.878-07:002012-07-06T06:14:24.878-07:00There is, apparently, a correlation between LSAT s...<i>There is, apparently, a correlation between LSAT scores and first year grades.</i><br /><br />Or, to put it differently, the fact that class rank is a better predictor of bar passage than LSAT score does not necessarily mean that LSAT score is not a good predictor of bar passage.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-10872659296263719452012-07-06T05:59:49.903-07:002012-07-06T05:59:49.903-07:00@ 6:03 PM (JDP) who writes, "... JD is a kiss...@ 6:03 PM (JDP) who writes, <i>"... JD is a kiss of death for entry into ... paralegal law.... want ads for paralegal positions ...explicity said: "No JD's""</i><br /><br /><br />Now, now. We know this is not true because Jack Marshall says that "<i>many, <b>many</b></i> law firms will hire a JD as a paralegal".<br /><br />Sheesh, what a goober. (Marshall in this case, not referring to JDP here.)I_have_a_namehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17856509644618792070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-9933099488740328802012-07-06T05:41:49.621-07:002012-07-06T05:41:49.621-07:00"You would think from the post, and the comme..."You would think from the post, and the comments, that American law schools are teeming with black students when that is not the case. Cooley is not an example of what is going on in most American law schools. But it is being used as if it were."<br /><br />No, you would think from the post that law schools *target* minorities and use their inclusion as a justification for what is otherwise bottom-feeding. If law schools were teeming with minorities, there wouldn't be such an emphasis on winding ways to "diversify" the law.Docnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-8821436736954527152012-07-06T05:37:04.909-07:002012-07-06T05:37:04.909-07:00How can there be a correlation between LSAT and gr...How can there be a correlation between LSAT and grades when all grading is done on a curve? I got a great LSAT, but I was firmly in the center of the pack gradewise at my "t14" school. Meanwhile, somebody who got a 140 and went to Cooley could be valedictorian there. It just doesn't really hold up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-90549457183599914492012-07-06T04:20:09.037-07:002012-07-06T04:20:09.037-07:00There is, apparently, a correlation between LSAT s...There is, apparently, a correlation between LSAT scores and first year grades.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-61700033616189996822012-07-06T00:27:24.588-07:002012-07-06T00:27:24.588-07:0010:17 - There is data on correlations between LSAT...10:17 - There is data on correlations between LSAT and class rank (but I am not in a position to give you the references anymore). The gist is that class rank is a better predictor of passing the bar than the LSAT. This is expected because most law schools structure their tests such that they are similar to the bar. In contrast, the LSAT is not similar to the bar at all (other than it is timed and it is multiple choice).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-89397881127083179932012-07-05T22:20:07.618-07:002012-07-05T22:20:07.618-07:00No, passing the bar means you have a pulse.No, passing the bar means you have a pulse.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-15377137955271354142012-07-05T22:17:29.895-07:002012-07-05T22:17:29.895-07:00DJM - Do you or for that matter anyone else know o...DJM - Do you or for that matter anyone else know of any studies that have attempted to find correlations between LSAT scores and bar passage rates? Or law school class rank? Also it would be interesting to know if LSAT performance was more tightly correlated to bar passage than rank in your graduating class or the law school you attended. What if graduates of a number of law schools with the same LSAT had the same bar passing rate? Would this mean that passing the bar was simply a function of your underlying verbal intelligence and the law school you attended had no effect at all? Interesting if we had any data on these questions. William OckhamAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-84617059756949773762012-07-05T21:01:35.805-07:002012-07-05T21:01:35.805-07:00DJM-- The focus is still interesting because, as y...DJM-- The focus is still interesting because, as you must know, enrollment of minorities in law school has been declining in the past several years. There have been numerous articles about this. You would think from the post, and the comments, that American law schools are teeming with black students when that is not the case. Cooley is not an example of what is going on in most American law schools. But it is being used as if it were.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-71416965718375428862012-07-05T20:40:06.524-07:002012-07-05T20:40:06.524-07:00Why focus on race at all? If people of any race wa...Why focus on race at all? If people of any race want to spend money on an American law school education they should. The risk is the same regardless of color--they have an equal chance to make their lives worse off then when they began their pursuit of a legal education. Too much emphasis is put on bar passage and even law school education--bar testing and law school education are not typically the same thing as practicing law, so I can never judge what someone passing the bar or with high law school grades can/cannot do. What is clear is if you don't pass the bar or graduate law school in most states, you don't get licensed(the only real connection I find to actual law practice). <br /><br />I could have sworn we were all talking weeks ago about how law school education needs to improve so it provides more practical, real world legal experience. Yet, suddenly today the current law school/bar testing model is enough to judge someone's competence to practice real law. How did this mental switch happen?PoorGradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06348929998247512034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-75493415706217169822012-07-05T20:22:15.196-07:002012-07-05T20:22:15.196-07:007:58, I don't think the Black students at Ohio...7:58, I don't think the Black students at Ohio State will respond differently than students at other schools. If students at any school have comments, I encourage them to contact me. <br /><br />The original post responds to the fact that defenders of the status quo use "access" to defend some of their bad practices. And, as the reader suggested in the email I quoted at the top of the post, these claims are increasing as pressure mounts on schools to restrict enrollment and cut costs. My post suggests that the "access" defense fails: spiraling tuition in a bad job market hurts minority students even more than Whites.<br /><br />Going forward, I would place the burden on law schools (not minority students themselves) to increase access in real ways. Leaping tuition and LSAT-based scholarships have not increased access. Lowering tuition would increase access (and, of course, accomplish other good things). Scholarships based on family wealth (not just income) would also provide more realistic access to minority students--as well as to underprivileged White students. <br /><br />I would also maintain pressure on the profession. As individual graduates attest, and the articles by Wilkins and others document more comprehensively, minorities suffer from all types of unconscious stereotyping in the workplace. Those stereotypes lead to less demanding work assignments, less mentoring, and--ultimately--quicker exits from law firms and some other organizations. Minority graduates have developed some coping mechanisms, such as the ones described in comments here, but I think employers need to do some hard introspection.DJMhttp://moritzlaw.osu.edu/faculty/bios.php?ID=38noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-37209242562357918242012-07-05T19:59:58.478-07:002012-07-05T19:59:58.478-07:00Or I should say, special post about minority stude...Or I should say, special post about minority students.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-74119738109122398092012-07-05T19:58:45.461-07:002012-07-05T19:58:45.461-07:00But i was curious about doing a special post about...But i was curious about doing a special post about black students, if you don't have any special advice for them about how to handle the entry into the legal profession. I know someone in the comments referenced the outreach to minorities, but lots of references are made that don't get turned into specific posts. It would be interesting to see how the black students at your school will respond to your post and the comments it has elicited. I suppose they will see it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-78198644527985677942012-07-05T19:51:23.249-07:002012-07-05T19:51:23.249-07:00Great. Thanks for answering. It will be interestin...Great. Thanks for answering. It will be interesting to read what you have to say.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-20876767272666093782012-07-05T19:44:50.381-07:002012-07-05T19:44:50.381-07:007:25, no more so than I do to students of other ra...7:25, no more so than I do to students of other races. I have been counseling students and 0Ls for many years on the riskiness of attending law school. My current rule of thumb is that law school is a risky (and, at this point, unwise) proposition for any student who anticipates loans totaling more than the school's published "median" salary. For Moritz, that's currently $60,000.<br /><br />Law school is also unwise for students who lack solid reasons for why they want to be lawyers. And there are quite a number of law schools (like Cooley) that any student would be foolish to attend today at any price. But I hope to say more about all of this in a full post soon.DJMhttp://moritzlaw.osu.edu/faculty/bios.php?ID=38noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-81769653148005977062012-07-05T19:25:35.473-07:002012-07-05T19:25:35.473-07:00Do you suggest to black students that they should ...Do you suggest to black students that they should not have come to law school?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-86526155800968013702012-07-05T19:16:08.993-07:002012-07-05T19:16:08.993-07:00And one final (depressing) reference. I stumbled a...And one final (depressing) reference. I stumbled across this article just today: "Marooned: An Empirical Examination of Law School Graduates Who Fail the Bar Exam" by Jane Yakowitz. https://swlaw.edu/pdfs/jle/jle601yakowitz.pdf. How's that for a morbid title? DON'T read this article if you're currently studying for the bar--as a commenter noted above, attitude affects performance, and you need the home-stretch psyche right now. <br /><br />But for others, Yakowitz offers some interesting insights (including some race-related data) on those who fail the bar. Yakowitz doesn't address the current crisis in legal education, but her discussion prompts this comparison: The financial disasters that used to swamp bar-failers now overwhelm a significant proportion of students (of all races) who *pass* the bar. Today, going to law school may be as disastrous financially as failing the bar was fifteen years ago. How's that for progress?DJMhttp://moritzlaw.osu.edu/faculty/bios.php?ID=38noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-87303742187800546502012-07-05T19:13:31.396-07:002012-07-05T19:13:31.396-07:00Couldn't get this past the spam filter, so I&#...Couldn't get this past the spam filter, so I'll break it in two pieces. Today had more distractions than I thought it would, so here are just a few additional thoughts:<br /><br />Rick Sander's article on affirmative action and the bar exam is essential reading on this subject. He raises thoughtful, important points. The paper is at http://www2.law.ucla.edu/sander/Systemic/final/SanderFINAL.pdf. But if you're interested in this subject, you should also read David Wilkins' response, available on ssrn at http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=717962. Both Sander and Wilkins also write quite a bit about the legal profession: you may find their other articles interesting.<br /><br />Many of the minority students I've taught over the years tell me about discrimination they've experienced in law firms and other employment settings. Those stories, all quite specific and believable, come from racial minorities of all groups--Black, Hispanic, Asian, and Native American. There's lots of scholarship in this area as well. Wilkins has written numerous pieces on this topic, detailing the kind of systemic problems that minority lawyers face. Sander has also written on this subject; as with his law school piece, he suggests that affirmative action is the underlying problem--but he agrees with Wilkins and others that minority lawyers face significant obstacles in law firms.DJMhttp://moritzlaw.osu.edu/faculty/bios.php?ID=38noreply@blogger.com