tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post6313352169987598239..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: The professor's apprenticeLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger76125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-47559490573807690082011-10-28T03:28:31.672-07:002011-10-28T03:28:31.672-07:00Our legal employment market, while significantly b...Our legal employment market, while significantly better than the clusterfuck you guys have, is hardly desirable, and it's gradually being compromised by the same pernicious market forces that have been eating away at you guys<a href="http://www.niftystocks.in/" rel="nofollow">stock market adviosry</a>Stock Markethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00054591579461359818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-61817926028457312011-10-22T08:27:27.788-07:002011-10-22T08:27:27.788-07:00@9:29. 2007 data from Ontario can be found at htt...@9:29. 2007 data from Ontario can be found at http://www.lsuc.on.ca/media/licensing.pdf. <br /><br />An excerpt:<br /><br />"The Gap. Therefore, it is estimated that in the 2009/2010 licensing year there may be as many as 400 candidates [out of 1733, or 23%] unable to find articling placements. This assumes that the economy remains stable. If there was a downturn in the economy that number will increase. Unplaced candidates will be entitled to continue to look for articling positions into the following years to fulfill their requirements, but the problem exacerbates itself year on year as the candidates bump into one another in their efforts to secure a placement."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-70798215277747873532011-10-19T09:29:19.950-07:002011-10-19T09:29:19.950-07:00sorry 5:26. Everyone, please feel free to make up ...sorry 5:26. Everyone, please feel free to make up whatever you want and no one will ever ask for any evidence whatsoever, no matter how wrong your statement seems.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-81507554408730496992011-10-19T05:26:20.307-07:002011-10-19T05:26:20.307-07:00@10:46
You're demanding specific statistics f...@10:46<br /><br />You're demanding specific statistics for everything, but the reality is they don't exist. Following the end of the articling period, nobody bothers to continue collecting employment data for new lawyers, so everything else I know is based purely on anecdote, but if you honestly believe that an unemployment rate can just jump from below 50% to near full employment, then I have some inflated swampland derivatives in Florida I'd like to sell you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-54776803506379792752011-10-19T00:08:51.547-07:002011-10-19T00:08:51.547-07:00"I'll be graduating this year with over $..."I'll be graduating this year with over $60,000 in debt and I'm still struggling to find an articling position, and even if I find one, I'm not sure whether I'll actually have a future in the profession. Needless to say I take some solace in reading US scamblogs like this one and hearing stories from people in situations even more difficult than my own."<br /><br />LOL. At least you're honest and thank you for teaching me about the concept of "articling."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-88570048418952755082011-10-19T00:06:56.959-07:002011-10-19T00:06:56.959-07:00"Our legal employment market, while significa..."Our legal employment market, while significantly better than the clusterfuck you guys have, is hardly desirable, and it's gradually being compromised by the same pernicious market forces that have been eating away at you guys (i.e., growing class sizes and new schools despite a lack of market demand, skyrocketing tuition, offshoring and automatization of low-level legal tasks, etc.). "<br /><br />Sad. American law schools are like some kind of zombie, slowly infecting other legal systems throughout the world.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-33066424025070409892011-10-19T00:04:52.769-07:002011-10-19T00:04:52.769-07:00"Law firms themselves control the number of l..."Law firms themselves control the number of lawyers on the market through selective hiring."<br /><br />Wow, so the supply of new lawyers is controlled by the demand for new lawyers. <br /><br />What an interesting way of regulating production.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-46410768286930645582011-10-18T23:20:50.869-07:002011-10-18T23:20:50.869-07:00@3.18 -
a) Nonsense. My conversion course took on...@3.18 -<br /><br />a) Nonsense. My conversion course took one year, my BSc. 3 years, the vast majority of English lawyers are the same. All that's needed after that to become a solicitor in England and Wales (assuming you can get a traineeship, which only ~50% do according to the SRA) is the one-year LPC course, after which you start work as a trainee. The total is therefore five years for non-LLBs and four years for those who studied law at undergraduate level.<br /><br />b)There is not so much an over-supply of lawyers <i>per se</i>, since it is not possible to qualify as a solicitor (or a barrister) without getting a traineeship (or puppilage for barristers). Law firms themselves control the number of lawyers on the market through selective hiring. What there is is a glut in the number of people who want to become lawyers and who are willing to pay good money to law schools who are quite willing to take their money in the full knowledge that only 50% of those who study the LPC go on to become trainee solicitors. The situation is even worse for barristers (only something like 30-40% of people who take the BVC gain pupillages).<br /><br />c) This increase did not represent so much a rise in cost, but a shifting of the burden of that cost from the tax-payer to the student. The government also increased the student loans offered by the Student Loans Company to cover the additional costs, these loans do not need to be paid back until income exceeds a certain level.Gilman Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06607416440240634159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-3363686925567503632011-10-18T22:46:43.463-07:002011-10-18T22:46:43.463-07:00"For some this surely just amounts to tempora..."For some this surely just amounts to temporary unemployment; they're able to bounce back within a matter of months and obtain a new position, but I suspect for a growing and substantial portion this turns into long-term systemic unemployment and ultimately flight from the profession."<br /><br />"For some"? "I suspect for a growing and substantial porition?"<br /><br />so you don't know whether or to what extent these are true. these are not facts. without facts, you're just confusing everything. mr. canada is just as bad as the british non-american.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-56323585346416561782011-10-18T22:44:23.185-07:002011-10-18T22:44:23.185-07:00A is better than B. But I can find something wrong...A is better than B. But I can find something wrong with A. Therefore A is worthless. <br /><br />This is the the same rhetorical trick law professors use all the time to shoot down practical ideas for change that would impact their bottom line. We need to do something because the American law school system is about as bad as it gets.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-70989587946809897782011-10-18T20:06:00.357-07:002011-10-18T20:06:00.357-07:00I'm actually a current Canadian law student an...I'm actually a current Canadian law student and long time reader of this blog (and by "long time" I mean I've been reading it for the past couple of months that it's existed).<br /><br />Our legal employment market, while significantly better than the clusterfuck you guys have, is hardly desirable, and it's gradually being compromised by the same pernicious market forces that have been eating away at you guys (i.e., growing class sizes and new schools despite a lack of market demand, skyrocketing tuition, offshoring and automatization of low-level legal tasks, etc.). <br /><br />Some 12.1% of students fail to obtain articles, according to the latest figures, but that's just the tip of the iceberg, because the current employment rate for students immediately post-call (i.e. after the articling year) is actually below 50%. For some this surely just amounts to temporary unemployment; they're able to bounce back within a matter of months and obtain a new position, but I suspect for a growing and substantial portion this turns into long-term systemic unemployment and ultimately flight from the profession.<br /><br />Yes, our tuition rates tend to be lower than yours (typically 10 to 20k as opposed to the 20 to 40k you guys generally pay), but then our salaries also tend to be lower (even at top firms, starting salaries are 75k max, compared to 160k at top US firms).<br /><br />I'll be graduating this year with over $60,000 in debt and I'm still struggling to find an articling position, and even if I find one, I'm not sure whether I'll actually have a future in the profession. Needless to say I take some solace in reading US scamblogs like this one and hearing stories from people in situations even more difficult than my own.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-4865781277448379552011-10-18T19:58:57.874-07:002011-10-18T19:58:57.874-07:00From the above link:
"(b) set up or certify ...From the above link:<br /><br />"(b) set up or certify a parallel Practical Legal Training Course that provides law graduates who could not obtain articles the chance to earn an equivalent certification in practical legal skills training."<br /><br />This exists in Australia (well for sure in Victoria and the ACT anyway:)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-30577295698047800042011-10-18T18:58:26.918-07:002011-10-18T18:58:26.918-07:00@6:44. Agreed. For years, the merits of the arti...@6:44. Agreed. For years, the merits of the articling system have been questioned. See, for example, http://www.slaw.ca/2008/02/01/the-inconvenient-truth-about-articling/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-41228385432042459822011-10-18T18:44:15.761-07:002011-10-18T18:44:15.761-07:00@5:00 be careful what you wish for. If you can...@5:00 be careful what you wish for. If you can't get an articling job, you degree is worthless. This happens to a sizable percentage of graduates.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-77712153185070752172011-10-18T17:00:01.774-07:002011-10-18T17:00:01.774-07:00Forget the British system. We need the Canadian s...Forget the British system. We need the Canadian system.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-84895980878695363942011-10-18T16:01:51.426-07:002011-10-18T16:01:51.426-07:00If you're going to come on here with the claim...If you're going to come on here with the claim that the british system (in which you can get a law degree with as little as 4 years of total post highschool education, and in which law graduates get apprenticeships after law school) is bad because neither of the aforementioned statements are true, even though you admit that you don't know whether they're true or not, then you should have some facts. otherwise you're just confusing everyone for no good reason.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-18681448897627003272011-10-18T15:58:55.850-07:002011-10-18T15:58:55.850-07:00PS I am done responding to the troll, but glad to ...PS I am done responding to the troll, but glad to answer other q's about the British legal education/training system before we give it our full-throated endorsement (and would of course welcome English lawyers' views, which would be far more informed than my own).<br /><br />--Allegedly British guyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-53060841367963943042011-10-18T15:55:29.153-07:002011-10-18T15:55:29.153-07:003:35 -- by your insistence on statistics in areas ...3:35 -- by your insistence on statistics in areas where there are none, the most generous interpretation I can think of is that you are a troll.<br /><br />Precisely how many US law students fail to get jobs in BigLaw? Small law? Gov't?<br /><br />What percentage of US law graduates from the past three years who want to practice law, do?<br /><br />One could of course apply your "Could be 99%. Could be less." criticism to all that, but of course we have a sense of things without waiting for the transparency movement to reach its conclusion. <br /><br />Similarly, I gave you my impression of how common the outcomes I referred to are. In the absence of statistics, interpretation is required. I have given "facts," as in statistics, where available.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-85634409022166666562011-10-18T15:55:02.617-07:002011-10-18T15:55:02.617-07:00come on let's be fair. she's at columbia n...come on let's be fair. she's at columbia not some TTT. we need some law professors, after all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-83712950933226835182011-10-18T15:50:28.645-07:002011-10-18T15:50:28.645-07:00"As a law professor, I feel a particular resp...<i>"As a law professor, I feel a particular responsibility in speaking out in support of the Occupy Wall Street protests," said Katherine Franke, the Isidor and Seville Sulzbacher Professor of Law at Columbia Law School. "Lawyers have played no small role in providing legal cover for the overreaching and irresponsibility undertaken on Wall Street. My hope is that Columbia Law School will see these protests as an opportunity to remind our students that legal ethics require that lawyers be bound to represent not only private, but also larger societal, interests."</i><br /><br />And now she can go back to business as usual and her six-figure paycheck.Lemuelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-27321571970853487122011-10-18T15:35:44.069-07:002011-10-18T15:35:44.069-07:00" a subset of people. "
A subset whose ..." a subset of people. "<br /><br />A subset whose size we don't know. Could be 99%. Could be less.<br /><br />"They don't necessarily get training K's "<br /><br />We haven't established that at all.<br /><br />"All I'm saying is we should think twice before adopting the UK apprenticeship model."<br /><br />I'm saying you should research facts before stating them because otherwise it confuses the conversation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-5437778850008444962011-10-18T15:18:30.006-07:002011-10-18T15:18:30.006-07:003:07 --
As to (a), I would say British lawyers av...3:07 --<br /><br />As to (a), I would say British lawyers average 5 yrs of school -- either because their undergrad studies take 4 yrs (some "majors" are) or because they don't study law and need to do what is called a conversion course for law school, which is 2 yrs instead of 1. So, it's 4-6 yrs total. Yes, this is shorter than the minimum 7 here, but it's only a full 3 yrs shorter for a subset of people. <br /><br />(b) is not quite correct. They don't necessarily get training K's and I don't know if the UK limits the number of law schools, but like here, they have a ton of lawyers (i.e., whether or not the number is "limited," supply is too high). <br /><br />(c) Their education is much cheaper per year. But again, keep in mind tuition was tripled overnight (1 yr's notice) nationwide. Ppl simply were not saving for this, so they have to take out debt. It is less debt, but the training contracts pay crap and are hard to get.<br /><br />All I'm saying is we should think twice before adopting the UK apprenticeship model. It is flawed, but moreover, it assumes an inexpensive education. Now the UK has abandoned inexpensive education, so we will see soon enough whether it can work there. If it does, perhaps we could import some of its better aspects here.<br /><br />--Allegedly British guyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-28207778863864891532011-10-18T15:08:51.396-07:002011-10-18T15:08:51.396-07:00At 3:02. Damnit, If I wanted to read closely and t...At 3:02. Damnit, If I wanted to read closely and try to use reason instead of emotion, I woulda become a lawyer. Oh wait....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-87504181580623652352011-10-18T15:07:54.475-07:002011-10-18T15:07:54.475-07:00* their education is like 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of a...* their education is like 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of american education, per year (cumulatively it's much less).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-31241254980975565142011-10-18T15:07:31.596-07:002011-10-18T15:07:31.596-07:00"I don't know the percentage (nor even if..."I don't know the percentage (nor even if it is available), but as I said, many ppl seeking training contracts do not get them."<br /><br />Why would you say the latter after saying the former? Do you see the incongruity?<br /><br />I think you're way way off base in comparing the plight of british lawyers to american ones. Seemingly, they get (a) a total of 3 years less education (1 year less UG and 2 years less of law shool), (b) they get training contracts (i.e. paid internships) because the UK limits the number of law schools and (c) their education is like 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of american education.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com