tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post6118291149359494234..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: IndignationLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger113125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-4747770891559263012012-06-27T03:23:23.632-07:002012-06-27T03:23:23.632-07:00Oh my goodness! an amazing article dude. Thank you...Oh my goodness! an amazing article dude. Thank you<br /><a href="http://www.mpn.rs/" rel="nofollow"> Moler</a>Molerihttp://www.mpn.rs/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-38250994825885235142012-02-02T20:29:01.101-08:002012-02-02T20:29:01.101-08:00I recently graduated from Adelaide Law School in S...I recently graduated from Adelaide Law School in South Australia. Until 2011, Law School positions at the three universities were capped. <br /><br />As of 2012, the restrictions have been taken off Universities. They can now offer as many positions as they like in the courses the want to. <br /><br />What this means is that courses such as law will become even more prevalent because they are such money-raisers for the universities. Law is a top-tier course in Adelaide, which means that it costs well in excess of $1,500 per semester PER SUBJECT. The university's job is finished when their students graduate, so the fact that my university alone was taking on 300 new students every year (total of 200 graduates every year) means that they don't care if we can't get jobs. <br /><br />I have started reading through your archives, and I have a possible answer to your question of why law professors are paid so much. It is a question of supply and demand. Since a decent lawyer can (if they can get their first job...) make a significant income in the private sector, the only way to convince them to teach is to pay them commensurately. Hence, a good lawyer can ask nearly what he wants to be paid, and the universtiy will pay it gladly. Or, should I say, I pay the university to pay it gladly.Miscellaneous Lawyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10090128614779179569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-4776360372046547292011-12-16T04:28:41.804-08:002011-12-16T04:28:41.804-08:00Good work. Thanks for the info. very useful tips i...Good work. Thanks for the info. very useful tips indeed.izrada web sajtovahttp://www.promoteamsrbija.rsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-61116632910385954032011-12-16T04:28:21.620-08:002011-12-16T04:28:21.620-08:00This is a great and informative post.Well, the poi...This is a great and informative post.Well, the points given were facts that could never go wrong. I have visited so many pages with the same discussion and topicspolovni automobilihttp://www.mojpolovniauto.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-44382186974070029502011-09-10T10:31:30.430-07:002011-09-10T10:31:30.430-07:00As for entering non-practicing positions, I curren...As for entering non-practicing positions, I currently work as an attorney, but I didn't start doing so until eight years post-graduation. Upon graduating, feeling that I hadn't really lived life and not wanting to be at the office until 2am every night for months like some others, I joined the Peace Corps. After spending about 4 years in southern Africa, I came back to the US, did doc review for about six months, and got a position as a community organizer in the rural western US. Through the organizer position, I did a lot of lawerly things: represented groups at administrative hearings, made presentations to local governments, drafted policy papers, ran successful legislative initiatives, etc. Although I wasn't being paid that well,I really enjoyed the work. I then became an early victim of the economy in late 2007. Fortunately, I'd made a name for myself in the organizer position and was hired by a local law firm. I won't comment on my firm experience here, but I think that my path to the firm job demonstrates that one can get into a position in some non-traditional ways and speaks to the value of practical experience.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-57112044817752752182011-09-03T15:19:08.964-07:002011-09-03T15:19:08.964-07:00"The NY Times and others have done stories ab..."The NY Times and others have done stories about the decline in the numbers of black and Hispanic students in law schools in the last several years."<br /><br />Because black and hispanic people are street smart and far less likely to be duped. Why go to a low ranked law school when you could make as much being a day laborer?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-45884589198594074532011-09-03T12:20:09.323-07:002011-09-03T12:20:09.323-07:00Even if it's 15 percent black/Hispanic, that m...Even if it's 15 percent black/Hispanic, that means of the remaining 85% only 10% at most can be whites below the 25th percentile. Check out lawschoolnumbers.com. Go to the charts for T14 schools and you'll see that all the outliers are URMs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-42266135880156019172011-09-03T12:00:27.646-07:002011-09-03T12:00:27.646-07:00For some reason the table would not paste, But the...For some reason the table would not paste, But these were the numbers from the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education on the number of black students in schools 4 years ago.<br /><br />Just to give examples at Harvard the number was 11.1, Yale 7.7, Stanford, 6.9, Chicago, 7.2, Columbia 7.7. The highest percentage was at Harvard. The next was Duke with 10.2. <br /> i have seen info suggesting that at some of these schools, the Hispanic student percentages are about 6 to 7 percent. Stanford is slightly higher. <br /><br />The NY Times and others have done stories about the decline in the numbers of black and Hispanic students in law schools in the last several years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-58759436592564151662011-09-03T08:27:26.042-07:002011-09-03T08:27:26.042-07:00"What elite law schools are 20% black and His..."What elite law schools are 20% black and Hispanic?"<br /><br />It's probably not that high. That being said, I have known a lot of completely white (physically white; their name is white . . .) people from upper class backgrounds, with minority genes somewhere in their heritage, who gladly check off that box. Hey, I can't blame them I would have done the same if I could.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-79704754257986616302011-09-03T07:58:31.582-07:002011-09-03T07:58:31.582-07:00What elite law schools are 20% black and Hispanic?...What elite law schools are 20% black and Hispanic?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-5152697472098462572011-09-02T18:37:45.175-07:002011-09-02T18:37:45.175-07:00I can assure you that EVERY SINGLE ONE of the peop...<em>I can assure you that EVERY SINGLE ONE of the people admitted while I worked there had been white and they would not have been admitted without the donations and influence of their parents, etc. THIS IS REALITY!!</em><br /><br />You are simply not being honest. Elite schools are about 20% black and Hispanic. Just about all blacks and Hispanics at top schools are nowhere near the cutoff for white and Asian students LSAT wise. That means if these schools were taking a significant portion of whites with low LSATs, it would show up in a lower 25th percentile. <br /><br />There are something like ten blacks a year who get 170 on the LSAT. In order to meet the diversity quota T14 schools have to dig into the 150s. No, or very very few, whites are getting that kind of advantage.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-69093500953797110492011-09-02T13:26:43.626-07:002011-09-02T13:26:43.626-07:00I wanted to tell them unless they were in the top ...<i>I wanted to tell them unless they were in the top 10% they could expect to work at a small firm making $30-40k their first year and probably do nothing they are interested in, but they are too green to appreciate the reality check.</i><br /><br />Even that sounds wildly optimistic for 4th tier grads nowadays, even if they are in the top 10.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-56418722306430770632011-09-02T12:52:35.039-07:002011-09-02T12:52:35.039-07:00I am a 3L at a 4th tier school. I walked into law ...I am a 3L at a 4th tier school. I walked into law school knowing the likelihood of making six figures out the door was pretty much impossible. I really want to practice law. I still do. <br /><br />This week I spoke with several brand spanking new 1Ls about joining a new organization. I heard a lot of things like, "oh I want to become a federal judge" or "I'm going to be a corporate lawyer" and all sorts of other nonsense that indicated a real lack of understanding on their chances upon getting out. I wanted to tell them unless they were in the top 10% they could expect to work at a small firm making $30-40k their first year and probably do nothing they are interested in, but they are too green to appreciate the reality check.Adam Kielichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01352776600084349395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-27068857650069911352011-09-02T11:16:46.256-07:002011-09-02T11:16:46.256-07:00Fascinating stuff. It sounds like both of your ca...Fascinating stuff. It sounds like both of your cases involved you having some non-legal qualifications related to the job, the MPH in the one instance and the finance major/internships in the other.<br /><br />Maybe that is the message JDs need to learn. You can compliment your other experience with a JD, but you do need some other experience. You cannot have, as I did, a poli sci degree and shit else. I know that probably sounds like common sense, but I really did think people would hire me at non-legal jobs, despite me having no particular experience or education, because my JD proved how brilliant I was.Fred Smithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-67872917059422157142011-09-02T10:54:26.125-07:002011-09-02T10:54:26.125-07:00Fred Smith,
I too started out of the gate in ...Fred Smith,<br /><br /> I too started out of the gate in a non-practicing position with the Federal Government. I did a dual degree JD/MPH program and was hired through the Presidential Management Fellows (PMF) program. I came in as a GS-12 in an Administrative Generalist (0301) position in a Cabinet-level Congressional Affairs Office (I had zero political or legislative background). I made GS-14 in about 3.5 years. I'm now at my second agency and my JD is actually viewed positively even if it is totally not required for my position.<br /><br /> Personally, I identify myself primarily as a public health/healthcare administration professional. My JD and bar admission are really tertiary, nice to have qualifications.<br /><br /> As a matter of policy, the PMF program does not place new hires into attorney coded (0905 series) positions. The number of JD applicants has skyrocketed in recent years and this has caused some consternation among agencies. For many of these JD holding PMF-wannabes, non attorney positions are transparently "Plan C" options for them and hiring authorities are having a growing skepticism as a result. This is unfortunate. I wish these kids would wake up and realize that the real action and fun in the Federal service is in the non attorney positions (e.g. 0301, 0343, 0685, 0671 series). Life as a General Counsel attorney (non-DOJ) in the Federal service is pretty lame. The real lawyers are at DOJ and handle all the high stakes stuff. If you want to be a hot shot Federal lawyer and strike out at the DOJ Honors program, reorient and focus on those non-attorney positions if you want to do cool stuff and make a difference. <br /><br />My .02Voodoo94http://www.armyocs.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-87743317212151083402011-09-02T09:51:35.652-07:002011-09-02T09:51:35.652-07:008:04 again,
I also feel like fortune smiled on m...8:04 again,<br /><br /> I also feel like fortune smiled on me. It may not tomorrow, but today I am one lucky bastard.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-51262692889270784502011-09-02T09:45:05.883-07:002011-09-02T09:45:05.883-07:00Fred Smith,
8:04 here.
Interned for regulators...Fred Smith, <br /><br />8:04 here. <br /><br />Interned for regulators and a bank compliance office during law school. Had a Finance undergraduate degree from a reputable state school (3.95 GPA). No debt from undergrad. I worked nights at a bar, and summers doing labor and the bar. <br /><br />Actually, the clinic office tried to block one of my internships (with a federal securities industry regulator) because I had "taken too many internships in one practice area." I cornered the dean and complained, and got my way. Just proves, like North Korea, the ones that follow the rules starve to death. <br /><br />I should have gone to compliance from undergrad and gotten an MBA at night on the company dime.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-22968184445301774102011-09-02T09:31:56.680-07:002011-09-02T09:31:56.680-07:00I found mine on usajobs.gov. The only qualificati...I found mine on usajobs.gov. The only qualifications other than my JD were some legal internships and a BA in English. I count myself very, very lucky.jubbajubbahttp://ubalt.edunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-77477679993977990032011-09-02T09:26:34.476-07:002011-09-02T09:26:34.476-07:008:04 and 9:14,
How did you find those jobs? Did ...8:04 and 9:14,<br /><br />How did you find those jobs? Did you have anything special on your resume that qualified you? I've never heard of law students going straight into compliance before. You'd think more people would if that were an option, certainly every big company has a huge compliance department.Fred Smithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-70346316466123989532011-09-02T09:22:18.960-07:002011-09-02T09:22:18.960-07:00@5:34 - I also went to Tulane and finished in '...@5:34 - I also went to Tulane and finished in '09. FinAid actually told me "not to worry" about borrowing costs because they had "programs to help reduce the burden". Not so much. I gave up looking for work in "the law" and now teach high school. I make 35k a year.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-47223293518696657482011-09-02T09:19:21.248-07:002011-09-02T09:19:21.248-07:00Awesome site.Awesome site.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-9955562246152825182011-09-02T09:14:11.293-07:002011-09-02T09:14:11.293-07:00I went straight into a government job following la...I went straight into a government job following law school. It was a JD preferred position, but the JD/bar passage were not required. Starting salary was in the mid 40s, but I did well and have made it into the low 100s in just a few years. Would NEVER practice and tend to view law school as the worst decision of my life.jubbajubbahttp://ubalt.edunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-26458045694349784262011-09-02T08:24:20.939-07:002011-09-02T08:24:20.939-07:00"HYS" stands for Harvard, Yale, Stanford..."HYS" stands for Harvard, Yale, Stanford.<br /><br />"0Ls" are prospective law students.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-39785792407832405342011-09-02T08:04:39.887-07:002011-09-02T08:04:39.887-07:00Fred Smith,
Went from law school directly to comp...Fred Smith,<br /><br />Went from law school directly to compliance (holla back office). And now that I am a few years in, I'll never practice law. I am the compliance guy. The guy that say's "do you think it's wise to do X" and then gets overruled by "X makes us Y$, shut up and go back in your hole."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-78367669524745515622011-09-02T07:50:25.284-07:002011-09-02T07:50:25.284-07:00I think it would be interesting to hear the storie...I think it would be interesting to hear the stories of people whose first job out of law school did not require bar passage and who used that job as the first step in an alternative career. 7:38, I can't tell if that means you. Surely there must be SOME people out there like this.<br /><br />Somebody remarked above about the correlation/causation confusion at work here and I think a related fact is that most lawyers working outside of law did not begin their careers outside of law. They began their careers as lawyers and made a transition at some later point. This is believable, as experienced lawyers develop the knowledge, connections, and/or money required to make a succesful transition. <br /><br />What I'm guessing almost never happens is that a JD is hired for an alternative career track fresh out of law school with nothing but his JD to show for himself. I'd like to hear stories about this happening, if any exist.Fred Smithnoreply@blogger.com