tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post5740332898633507645..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: You can help this child get a summer associate position with Sullivan & CromwellLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger80125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-55137605444681897382012-02-17T18:44:11.156-08:002012-02-17T18:44:11.156-08:00"30%-40% of NYU Law class of 2010 was unemplo..."30%-40% of NYU Law class of 2010 was unemployed at graduation"<br /><br />That HAS to be wrong.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-26627324811434897102012-02-17T07:18:55.390-08:002012-02-17T07:18:55.390-08:0030%-40% of NYU Law class of 2010 was unemployed at...30%-40% of NYU Law class of 2010 was unemployed at graduation. They tried to cover it up. In my case, they never even bother to ask if I was employed or not, but I am sure they counted me as employed in their statistics.<br />I am praying that someone commences a lawsuit against these "elite" schools soon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-13902598586937544582012-02-17T07:16:19.091-08:002012-02-17T07:16:19.091-08:00Well at least Columbia has done some things for so...Well at least Columbia has done some things for some grads- putting them into paid fellowships, etc. NYU did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. They also have an over bloated administration and they also blamed and slandered students if they didn't find jobs right away. They are the worst offenders. I think I made that pretty clear the last time they called me for donations. I haven't heard from them since....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-41457945204005402952012-02-17T06:50:54.142-08:002012-02-17T06:50:54.142-08:00Re $160,000 median & 75 percentile across mult...Re $160,000 median & 75 percentile across multiple years. <br /><br />I started this thread and it elicited a number of interesting posts. I think the recurrance of exactly the same median and 75 percentile figure across multiple years and multiple schools in diverse regions of the country indicates that the actual data posessed by these schools about the top of the hiring pyramid is far more fragmentary than it appears. Although it is possible to have such a distribution it is possible only if a large percentage of the top end graduates, as in substantially all, make exactly $160K. A more normal distribution, say $158 - 162K, will produce slight variations between 75 percentile and median and also between schools. And I don't believe virtually every reporting graduate who was at or above the median at four schools in four different markets made exactly the "going rate" at the AmLaw 100/250. <br /><br />Why not? Well, I have no evidence. But I worked in what is now an AmLaw 100 firm for 20 years and can offer some observations. First, the "going rate" was never uniform among different cities and regions. Never. There were always regional variations. Second, there were always variations within markets. Some firm always bumped up the rate by a couple of thousand and some other firm always lagged behing. Always. My experience is a bit dated; perhaps things are different now. I doubt it. The modern AmLaw 100/250 firm is not the monolith it may appear to outsiders. Most are actually cobbled together from various mergers, practice group acquisitions, lateral hires and expansion attempts and have offices in markets all over the county which have diverse cultures and histories. There is more variation within firms than there was when firms all tried to imitate Cravath. Many of these firms are no longer internally consistent when it comes to starting salary -- they don't pay the same starting rate in New York City, Ann Arbor and Exit 144 New Jersey.<br /><br />So where does the famously uniform $160K come from? I don't know but can make some suggestions. Law students and lawyers are, as LawProf has pointed out, a status obsessed bunch and it could be that the graduates making less that the published "going rate" are unwilling to admit it. Certainly law firm partners are reluctant to admit that they make less that their firm's published average "profits per partner." (I'm sure you are shocked.) It also may be that placement offices are supplementing incomplete data with public information -- i.e. Jane was hired by an AmLaw 100 firm, the "going rate" at AmLaw 100 firms is $160K, therefore Jane makes $160K. And if this is the case it is a real problem, because the AmLaw rankings have had roughly the same effect on law firm reporting that the US News rankings have had on law school reporting.<br /><br />In conclusion, I am very suspicious that we know a lot less about outcomes at the top end of the hiring market that we think we do.<br /><br />RPLAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-89267172166623239912012-02-17T06:16:56.507-08:002012-02-17T06:16:56.507-08:00It's very easy to see how a bunch of schools c...It's very easy to see how a bunch of schools could all report their median salary is 160k.<br /><br />Take school XYZ<br />1. 400 graduates, but only 99 report salaries<br />2. Of those 99 that report, most report because they have good jobs. So of those 99, 50 report a 160k salary<br />3. 49 report a salary ranging from $8.00/hr to 140K.<br />4. But because we're talking about the MEDIAN (the midpoint of all the salaries), the MEDIAN salary is 160k.<br /><br />Overall reporting a MEDIAN will tend to skew things upwards, because it has been demonstrated that those who report tend to have high salaries.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-63642074025776848262012-02-16T21:39:54.318-08:002012-02-16T21:39:54.318-08:00IMHO 8 movies a month is a LOT to give upIMHO 8 movies a month is a LOT to give upAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-18549556235793137492012-02-16T20:16:57.480-08:002012-02-16T20:16:57.480-08:00Dear Columbia Law:
I imagine someone from your sc...Dear Columbia Law:<br /><br />I imagine someone from your school is browsing the comment sections of this blog, just to gauge everyone's reaction to Ms. Hootnick's clever ad. Now that I have your attention, I would like to offer my services as Ms. Hootnick's replacment, since, like most legal grads, I will never get a legal job. I figure at least I could get paid to write clever little ads to help other poor law school grad suckers get jobs.<br /><br />Why should you hire me? Because Ms. Hootnick's ad has one fatal flaw: it fails to have pictures of vulnerable kids. Everyone knows the reason the Christian Children's Fund ads are so successful is because of the sad pictures of suffering children, not the words.<br /><br />So, what could I do for you? I could add sad pictures to the solicitation above. Just think how much more sympathetic your ad would be if you added a couple of sad pictures of recent grads in horrible jobs. Think - a picture of a law grad working as a janitor with a broom in hand, with the words, "this law grad could have been a lawyer, if he had had your $85 a month to help him get interviews." <br /><br />Or, you can have a picture of a retail worker working at Target or at some of the various places that my law school grad friends really work. How would you like to have a law grad working at Wal-Mart? I have that! Or, what about Home Depot - already got someone in mind for that. And don't worry about having to pay modelling fees: there are so many recent grads in such positions, we wouldn't have to pay them to model - they are the real thing and can ad a touch of authenticity to your ad. If you're not too picky about the school that they come from, I can get you an assortment of sad, depressed, recent law grads working in horrible jobs to make your ads more compelling and authentic.<br /><br />I imagine that you will want to contact me immediately regarding my offer. Don't wait too long, though. If I am lucky enough to get a job offer from Target as a cashier (I'm hoping I'll have better luck with that than Bl1Y did) I might not be around next week to help you tweak that ad to make it more sympathetic. So, don't delay and call me today! (Before I get stolen by Target!)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-40168517666463125072012-02-16T20:05:46.864-08:002012-02-16T20:05:46.864-08:00This blog saved me! I gave up looking for a job an...This blog saved me! I gave up looking for a job and am now a stay at home mom. At least my "boss" is easy to handle.....law school was a mistake! I could have done this job six years ago and with 150k less in loans....i hope my son never goes to law school....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-80186007595558448682012-02-16T20:01:28.735-08:002012-02-16T20:01:28.735-08:00What looks really suspicious is that not only are ...What looks really suspicious is that not only are the 75th percentile and the 50th (median) the same for some of these stats but the 25th is also the same.<br /><br />That can happen for several reasons, one of which is that everyone is employed at this level--another is that the data comes from a small fraction of the population, which happens to be those in Big Law.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-5786600005724661752012-02-16T19:37:43.509-08:002012-02-16T19:37:43.509-08:00Hey columbia, f*ck you.Hey columbia, f*ck you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-54013865416203499442012-02-16T19:14:43.485-08:002012-02-16T19:14:43.485-08:00I think what you're talking about is a frequen...I think what you're talking about is a frequency chart. ;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-2202298423724544482012-02-16T19:01:40.560-08:002012-02-16T19:01:40.560-08:00To 6:02PM:
You made a very good point there. 40k ...To 6:02PM:<br /><br />You made a very good point there. 40k would be reasonable with a reasonable tuition (10k a year or less) going with it and it would not be a bad outcome at all under those circumstances.<br /><br />However, I am assuming Dickie Law charges the market rate and with that assumption, 40k is a bad outcome. <br /><br />To 6:14 pm :<br /><br />That sounds so absurd that it must be real.<br /><br />To 6:21 pm :<br /><br />You are right, a strict interpretation of the mode distribution of the data set would be problematic. <br /><br />The answer is to add flexibility to it by tweaking the mode distribution and including ranges in it.<br /><br />Ex.:<br /><br />Less than 30k<br />Between 30k and 50k<br />Between 50k and 65k<br />Between 65k and 80k <br />Between 80k and 100k<br />Above 100k <br /><br />Thus, students pursuing an advanced degree would be added to a diff. category. The following could be included as well: <br /><br />Separate categories for full time and part time jobs<br />Separate categories between legal and non-legal employment. <br /><br />What I proposed is far from perfect but it is a start. Quite frankly, it cannot get any worse than it is now.Rivaldonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-37610642487517498612012-02-16T18:48:40.818-08:002012-02-16T18:48:40.818-08:00This is a set up to be perpetually unsatisfied wit...This is a set up to be perpetually unsatisfied with the data provided.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-53204252854257250962012-02-16T18:44:04.035-08:002012-02-16T18:44:04.035-08:00They need to show a scatter plot with one dot for ...They need to show a scatter plot with one dot for every reported salary. This will show you everything you need to know in one image, including the sample size.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-53710623442703937972012-02-16T18:34:04.208-08:002012-02-16T18:34:04.208-08:00This blog has made me feel better about not donati...This blog has made me feel better about not donating to my law school. Had I received a scholarship I might feel different, but knowing a lot of my classmates paid significant less than I did makes me feel like I've already paid my share.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-83863361094503449212012-02-16T18:21:27.789-08:002012-02-16T18:21:27.789-08:00Why do you think mode is a better number? $10 per...Why do you think mode is a better number? $10 per hour, $11 per hour...I'm sure there's a wide variance in starbucks pay among different locations. Mode will probably still be $160K.<br /><br />I also find it stunning how clueless people are about basic stats.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-84588179490164359902012-02-16T18:14:23.414-08:002012-02-16T18:14:23.414-08:00"Dream job?!?"
What the fuck is so drea..."Dream job?!?"<br /><br />What the fuck is so dreamy about the practice of law? Wake the fuck up lemmings. This isn't Boston Legal or L.A. Law. <br /><br />Want to know what I did on my first day of the practice? Fresh off of a clerkship, I secured a job with a 30 lawyer firm. I thought I had made it. I was supposed to start on a Monday. On the Saturday night before I was to start my big time lawyer job, I get a call from the partner that hired me. He called me at 9:30PM to tell me to go to the 101 Precint to bail out some clients from jail. It turns out the clients were 6 hookers and a madam. I got the judge on the phone and bail was set. I thought I was a hero. Wrong, I had to drive these hookers back to the "brothel." During the drive they kept complaining about how I did a lousy job in keeping them there for over 2 hours. They kept asking what I was going to do about the cops that were getting "freebies" and the merchandise (e.g., dildos, a T.V., and a leather couch) they allegedly stole from the brothel. When I dropped them off at the brothel, the madam was supposed to pay a retainer fee in cash. I went into the brothel where there were more working girls inside with johns. I am in there waiting around like a putz drooling while watching these "ladies" walk around in lingerie when the cops come in like gangbusters and arrest everyone, including me. The cops thought I was a fucking john and charged me with solicitation and engaging in prostitution. I wound up in jail before I started my first law firm job. I got shitcanned on Monday afternoon when I didn't get bailed out of jail until 10AM on Monday. The firm was calling me and left messages on my voicemail asking why I hadn't shown up on my first day. I should have known my career was in the shitter from that day. And these fuckers at CLS are asking for alumni money to set up these spoiled prestige whores in a dream job? My fucking heart cries out for them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-39904514649664247942012-02-16T18:02:17.867-08:002012-02-16T18:02:17.867-08:00To be fair, 40K shitlaw as a starting job wouldn&#...To be fair, 40K shitlaw as a starting job wouldn't be a bad outcome if Dickie Law charged a reasonable amount for tuition. In-state tuition at 10K per year might be reasonable. This would probably be comparable to the tuition vs starting salary ratio for social workers, for example.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-58675420335130593152012-02-16T17:57:45.678-08:002012-02-16T17:57:45.678-08:00Stat 101:
**because math is scary**
*Mean, Media...Stat 101:<br />**because math is scary**<br /><br /> *Mean, Median , Mode, and Range. <br /><br />Mean: The average in a data set<br /><br />ex.: 200 students graduated from Dickie Law. <br /><br />15 of them got 160k - big law <br />25 of them got 80k - mid law<br />75 of them got 40k - shit law<br />85 of them are unemployed. <br /><br />Add all the salaries up and divide by 200.<br /> <br />That is the mean average salary of a Dickie Law Grad.<br /><br /><br />Median: the middle value in a data set. <br /><br />Take the numbers above and line them up. Pick the one in the middle. That's your median average salary of a Dickie grad. <br /><br />Mode: The most frequent value in a data set.<br /><br />15 of them got 160k - big law <br />25 of them got 80k - mid law<br />75 of them got 40k - shit law<br />85 of them are unemployed.<br /><br />0 is the most frequent value in this data set.<br /><br />85 out of 200 grads of Dickie Law are unemployed. Therefore, that's the mode of a Dickie Law grad .<br /><br />Range<br /><br />The maximum value vs. minimum value in a data set. <br /><br />Ex.: The salary range of a Dickie law is 160k.<br /><br />160k - 0k = 160k <br /><br />__________________________________________<br />__________________________________________<br /><br />Conclusion:<br /><br /><br />In my personal opinion, the problem with law school stats is that they don't show the mode distribution of salaries of law school grads. Rather, when they publish a number - they only post the mean average salary of a BigLaw/ MidLaw lawyer( If they're honest about it at all. Mostly, they pick the Mean Average among the BigLaw poster boys and publish it.) <br /><br />When 0Ls look at those numbers, they think that their outcomes are within those numbers.<br /><br />Thus, it becomes a nearly impossible task to get an accurate picture of the reality of this profession.<br /><br />Because if students saw those numbers, they would be able to calculate the percentages and make a more informed decision. (80% of Dickie Law grads had a bad outcome)Rivaldonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-84711431119314116082012-02-16T17:17:48.370-08:002012-02-16T17:17:48.370-08:00The reporting at HYS is much higher, well over 90%...The reporting at HYS is much higher, well over 90%.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-43760284631146781722012-02-16T16:46:47.088-08:002012-02-16T16:46:47.088-08:00@4:01. Actually, $160k is super, super standard fo...@4:01. Actually, $160k is super, super standard for Biglaw in major markets. And at the top law schools, most people who feel comfortable reporting their salaries (or even have a yearly *salary* to report) will have Biglaw jobs in major markets.<br /><br />And median does not mean "average" -- it means (in essence) "the middle number of the data set."<br /><br />So, it is not at all surprising that all these schools report medians of $160k. But that number is meaningless unless you know the size of the data set -- i.e., what percentage of the class has both (a) long-term legal employment and (b) reports a salary. This percentage is often shockingly low (and in many cases goes unreported entirely).<br /><br />For instance, at LawProf's school, only 39 out of 183 students (21%) reported salaries at jobs in private practice: http://www.colorado.edu/law/details/graduateDetails.htmJoblessColumbia3Lnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-79078609589941735572012-02-16T16:01:53.574-08:002012-02-16T16:01:53.574-08:00Every member of every class does not make Amlaw 10...Every member of every class does not make Amlaw 100. So it is not statistically possible for the average or median to be $160,000 if that is the going rate. All it would take is one single person to report a lower number to make that change.<br /><br />They all report that number because they have to so as not to look weak compared to others in the top 14. The data cannot support that number, even at HYS.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-34761498868021585522012-02-16T15:58:46.620-08:002012-02-16T15:58:46.620-08:00You just know that every law professor is seething...You just know that every law professor is seething with jealousy when Paul Campos gets quoted in the WSJ or the NYT. Brian Leiter starts punching holes in walls from the unfairness of it all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-39985377150950184482012-02-16T15:50:41.940-08:002012-02-16T15:50:41.940-08:003:15. That was a question, not an answer. But I wi...3:15. That was a question, not an answer. But I will say that while I would expect median salaries to be pretty close together, seeing the exact same median at multiple institutions over multiple years over which reporting rates and other variables vary seems pretty unusual. For example, although $160 K may be the norm for Am Law 100 firms at least in my experience, which is a bit dated, there were slight variations in starting salary both between firms in different cities and even within firms with offices in high cost and low cost locations.<br /><br />RPL<br /><br />RPLAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-59172223495869901132012-02-16T15:45:13.808-08:002012-02-16T15:45:13.808-08:00@ 3:19: Totally agree, and as far as I am concerne...@ 3:19: Totally agree, and as far as I am concerned they can all suck it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com