tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post5334454494661894497..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: Law School Transparency's 2012 Index ReportLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger82125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-41619347800399136352012-01-18T07:37:58.142-08:002012-01-18T07:37:58.142-08:00Hehe excellent 3:14.Hehe excellent 3:14.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-73109002257515985982012-01-18T03:14:07.670-08:002012-01-18T03:14:07.670-08:00When I was going to law school 23 years ago my gra...When I was going to law school 23 years ago my grandfather and uncle took me out to lunch and explained to me that in practice I was going to have to understand the meaning of certain clichés when uttered by a potential client:<br /><br />"money's no object" = because I am not going to pay the bill<br />"it's the principle of the thing" = you should be doing this <i>pro bono</i><br />"it's really a really simple case" = you better not charge a lot<br /> "I'll fight them to the last drop of blood" - notice the absence of the possessive participle (whose blood?)<br /><br />Though the best one I remember is of my aunt who, after winning an enormous divorce settlement for a wife from a very wealthy man, upon presenting her bill faced the response "a bill, but I thought you were my friend." She, of course, also advised me to respond at parties to people who sidled up to you and asked legal questions to "just tell them what your office hours are...."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-23770204904941278762012-01-18T02:53:20.566-08:002012-01-18T02:53:20.566-08:00A little legal research project
"Think like ...<b>A little legal research project</b><br /><br />"Think like a lawyer" is the favourite refrain of law professors to 1Ls - they did it to me some 23 years ago and they do it today -- all the while pretending that they ever worked as lawyers.<br /><br />Well, after 20 years of legal practice one thing I learned asa a lawyer is to be inherently suspicious of a party that systemically conceals or fails to disclose key information, especially when that information is clearly available, or relatively easily available to that party. And, thinking like a lawyer, I always warn clients about obvious "hiding of the ball," especially when it gets close to either a breach of fiduciary duty, or indeed outright fraud. Indeed, depending on the state, I have also had to warn clients of the "implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing" and of local principles on "bad faith lending" that hold that certain lenders have a fiduciary duty to the borrower. Thus taking for example California, case law has held that a loan broker, i.e., a mortgage broker is under the implied warranty and that a breach can allow not only recovery, but also can permit the borrower to collect attorneys' fees.<br /><br />What astonishes me is that, at this point, do the financial aid offices of law schools recognise that failure to make an honest disclosure is a liability issue - are the Deans of the law schools "thinking like a lawyer" or like crooked mortgage brokers.<br /><br />I am a pretty busy lawyer, but since many posting here seem to have time (let's be fair) - how about a little project. Divide up the states and send an e-mail precis of the following key information to Professor Campos and the LII:<br /><br />1. Does the law of State X contain an implied duty of good faith in contracts;<br />2. Can that implied warranty be construed as applying to lending agreements;<br />3. Does the implied warranty apply to lenders;<br />4. Does the implied warranty apply to loan brokers;<br />5. Is failure to disclose material facts is a breach of the warranty;<br />6. Is misrepresentation of material facts a breach of the warranty;<br />7. Does State X recognise "bad faith lending," i.e., a fiduciary duty in lending from the lender to the borrower;<br />8. Does the fiduciary duty extend to lenders;<br />9. Does the fiduciary duty extend to loan brokers;<br />10. What failures to disclose material facts amount to a breach of the duty;<br />11. What misrepresentations amount to a breach of the duty?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-52479246951707910372012-01-17T23:51:52.033-08:002012-01-17T23:51:52.033-08:00I was replying to 8:45 not 5:41 in the above comme...I was replying to 8:45 not 5:41 in the above comment. It's not considered good form to respond to your own comments. Sorry. W.O.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-21568542656836639252012-01-17T22:47:36.251-08:002012-01-17T22:47:36.251-08:005:41. A good point that I hadn't considered. ...5:41. A good point that I hadn't considered. But some questions, what percent of the recent law school graduates take and pass the bar exam? What percentage of the recent graduates are reflected in the existing surveys of the employment status of recent graduates? Would a manditory questionaire from the state bar recover a larger number of responces than the current surveys? Would the responces to the bar be more accurate than the existing surveys? Would the state bar survey be able to ask and have answered a greater and more detailed set of questions? Can we assume that graduates who have either not taken the bar or have not passed it do not have jobs that require a J.D. or bar passage? I have no data so I have no answers. William OckhamAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-23243875245323952662012-01-17T20:45:16.030-08:002012-01-17T20:45:16.030-08:005:41. First, not everybody passes the bar. Second,...5:41. First, not everybody passes the bar. Second, not everybody takes the bar.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-2173102913268747212012-01-17T18:41:53.692-08:002012-01-17T18:41:53.692-08:00"4:04 is of course, a part of the 5%. Thanks ..."4:04 is of course, a part of the 5%. Thanks for gracing us with your anonymous presence."<br /><br />lol. I love people who use anonymous comments, and nothing more than anonymous comments, to implore others to do something more than post anonymous comments.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-48030542075123125892012-01-17T17:41:57.324-08:002012-01-17T17:41:57.324-08:004:54 But if your state bar asked you wouldn'...4:54 But if your state bar asked you wouldn't the responce rate be 99%+?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-58880314353541478192012-01-17T17:41:29.442-08:002012-01-17T17:41:29.442-08:00@4:23. LOL. Well said! Every small firm lawyer ...@4:23. LOL. Well said! Every small firm lawyer endorses that observation!<br /><br />Tricia DennisAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01659995537790248686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-32002848176428164182012-01-17T17:32:56.920-08:002012-01-17T17:32:56.920-08:00In TN we have to report our pro bono hours, but it...In TN we have to report our pro bono hours, but it is not mandatory.<br /><br />On the C & F issue: I wonder how much a law school's lax standards are related to many law professor's downright disdain for the actual practice of law and the near messianic conviction that one can do many things other than practice law with a law degree. In other words, for the majority of admissions committees (made up of law professors), are these lax standards the result of cynicism or rationalization bordering on delusion? I almost prefer the former. You can't match wits with the witless.<br /><br />Tricia DennisAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01659995537790248686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-62677020427923413022012-01-17T16:54:06.886-08:002012-01-17T16:54:06.886-08:00I'm sure their data isn't perfect of cours...I'm sure their data isn't perfect of course- you're never going to get perfect survey data. But it's a whole lot better than self-reported data with a sub 50% response rate.Charles Pyehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04086353801992859902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-83284226480298095082012-01-17T16:52:28.842-08:002012-01-17T16:52:28.842-08:00From their website:
"Do I have to answer the...From their website:<br /><br />"Do I have to answer these questions?<br /><br />Yes. You are legally obligated to answer all the questions, as accurately as you can.<br /><br />The relevant laws are Title 18 U.S.C Section 3571 and Section 3559, which amends Title 13 U.S.C. Section 221."<br />But maybe one of you hotshot lawyers can prove them wrong lol.Charles Pyehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04086353801992859902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-84562308349633725412012-01-17T16:51:28.433-08:002012-01-17T16:51:28.433-08:00Thanks 3:25, for putting things in perspective.Thanks 3:25, for putting things in perspective.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-19883376701932729192012-01-17T16:41:48.457-08:002012-01-17T16:41:48.457-08:00Charles, you are not required to answer the supple...Charles, you are not required to answer the supplemental census form which is invasive and an intrusion of privacy. Last year, I was selected to fill out a 48 questionaire form which asked personal questions such as:<br /><br />1) How much money do you make?<br />2) How many people live in your house?<br />3) What time do you leave your home to go to work?<br />4) What time do you usually return home from work?<br />5) Do you need assistance to use the bathroom or take a bath?<br />6) What is your highest level of education?<br />7) Are you on medication? And so on.<br /><br />When the census representative came to my door, I told her I would not speak to her. She threatened to report me to the Attorney General for prosecution. I opened the door and told her the Census Bureau has the constitutional power to count me in the general population, not to inquire whether I can take a shit unassisted. I concluded by telling her to prosecute me, knowing that no one has ever been prosecuted under than bullshit law.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-12206214565280886902012-01-17T16:33:54.186-08:002012-01-17T16:33:54.186-08:00I keep wondering if there isn't a better way t...I keep wondering if there isn't a better way to gather employment data. So far all we have is self-reported data, and even if we could get 90% of new grads to respond, it would still skew the data massively if the 10% who didn't respond were all unemployed.<br /><br />http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/the-college-majors-that-do-best-in-the-job-market/<br />This guy was able to use data from the census to calculate how much new college grads from various major are making after graduation. The advantage of the census is that you're required to answer it if they select you, and all the data is online. I wonder if something similiar might be possible for law school grads?Charles Pyehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04086353801992859902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-8662296335727386102012-01-17T16:32:29.927-08:002012-01-17T16:32:29.927-08:00Pro bono is mandatory in NJ if you are tapped on t...Pro bono is mandatory in NJ if you are tapped on the shoulder. Madden v. Delran, 126 N.J. 591 (1992). Given the budget cuts and the cutbacks in state legal services programs, expect the ABA to propose mandatory pro bono model rules. After all, one isn't baptized as a lawyer until you represent an ungrateful client who will curse your name and threaten your life and your family all for the princely sum of "it is your obligation to give back."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-44069624334057126132012-01-17T16:23:21.030-08:002012-01-17T16:23:21.030-08:004:04 (the first and smarter one):
Most attorneys...4:04 (the first and smarter one): <br /><br />Most attorneys do pro-bono work. They're called non-paying clients.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-29196506748124948882012-01-17T16:15:17.409-08:002012-01-17T16:15:17.409-08:00Ockham's idea is not bad. You could have the ...Ockham's idea is not bad. You could have the state bar send the questionnaire electronically, and whomever answers, gets 100.00 off their dues. Who knows where that money goes anyway.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-44457100479715375312012-01-17T16:13:52.271-08:002012-01-17T16:13:52.271-08:00Yesterday, National Public Radio had a 5 minute ra...Yesterday, National Public Radio had a 5 minute radio segment on All Things Considered, "Do Law Schools Cook Their Employment Numbers." Kyle McEntee from LawSchoolTransparency.com was interviewed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-54811742662643330572012-01-17T16:09:30.798-08:002012-01-17T16:09:30.798-08:004:04 is of course, a part of the 5%. Thanks for g...4:04 is of course, a part of the 5%. Thanks for gracing us with your anonymous presence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-24454760732781229492012-01-17T16:08:36.785-08:002012-01-17T16:08:36.785-08:004:04:
0/10 for substance, 1/10 for effort.
For...4:04: <br /><br />0/10 for substance, 1/10 for effort. <br /><br />For the newbies, THIS is a classic definition of a troll.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-11950385170490968132012-01-17T16:04:46.354-08:002012-01-17T16:04:46.354-08:00As I read you folks endlessly post ideas that none...As I read you folks endlessly post ideas that none of you have the initiative or talent to implement, in juxtaposition with a post on Kyle - I'm reminded of the fact that 95% of the world are nothing more than hopeless and pathetic losers and it's the 5% who will make or break our society.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-36918959305052262522012-01-17T16:04:09.552-08:002012-01-17T16:04:09.552-08:00Re: jurisdictions with mandatory reporting for pro...Re: jurisdictions with mandatory reporting for pro bono, you don't have to do pro bono. You just have to fill out the form and put "0" hours in where they ask you how much pro bono you did. I've been barred in MD for 10 years and have done that every year, no problem. (Yeah, I'm a bum who doesn't do any pro bono work, wanna make something of it?)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-4129174866158214142012-01-17T16:02:17.119-08:002012-01-17T16:02:17.119-08:0040% to 50% sounds quite high for a Tier 4, if a re...40% to 50% sounds quite high for a Tier 4, if a real law job means full-time long-term employment requiring a law degree.LawProfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-33187556550888100732012-01-17T15:51:09.359-08:002012-01-17T15:51:09.359-08:00"On the other hand, excluding a student from ..."On the other hand, excluding a student from OCI is pretty damning to his career."<br /><br />I must live on another planet...at my Tier 4 only 5 people (of a class of 180 or so) get jobs through OCI...about 40-50% have real law jobs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com