tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post4712283127375833449..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: Are law students rational?LawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger76125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-58860501598584372992013-02-27T03:07:23.789-08:002013-02-27T03:07:23.789-08:00The decor on the inside of the restaurant is absol...The decor on the inside of the restaurant is absolutely beautiful.<br />Popular prizes include sports tickets, cash and vouchers for drinks, food - and dollars off of tabs.<br />Her father, Bruce Paltrow, produced the critically acclaimed TV series that is considered the precursor to many medical shows today, St.<br /><br /><br />Also visit my web blog; <a href="http://nicnicnicnic.blogspot.com/2011/06/celtic-poker-tour-grand-final.html" rel="nofollow">clever pub quiz names</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-40013536519227938902013-02-27T01:40:53.454-08:002013-02-27T01:40:53.454-08:00Hello there! This article could not be written muc...Hello there! This article could not be written much better!<br /><br />Going through this post reminds me of my previous roommate!<br />He continually kept preaching about this. I'll forward this article to him. Pretty sure he's <br />going to have a very good read. Thanks for sharing!<br /><br /><br />Also visit my web page - <a href="http://Instantpartygame.com/feature/10th-birthday-party-ideas/" rel="nofollow">10th birthday party ideas</a><br /><i>My web site</i> :: <b><a href="http://Instantpartygame.com/feature/5th-birthday-party-ideas/" rel="nofollow">5th birthday party ideas</a></b>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-90002608494783675212013-02-25T18:58:50.271-08:002013-02-25T18:58:50.271-08:00In that case, this kind of question should not be ...In that case, this kind of question should not be taken from any show telecasted in specific country.<br />Brazenhead is a great place to go with your family or for a business lunch or dinner, but if you are looking <br />for a party atmosphere, this isn't it. The decline of the East side blues scene was disheartening, but, it also gave rise to the need for a fresh start, which came in the form of the next blues-only venue, Antone's, founded by the late Clifford Antone, during the summer of 1975.<br /><br /><br />Also visit my blog ... <a href="http://dancecite.com/entry/be-your-self-credits.html" rel="nofollow">pub quiz aberdeen</a><br /><i>my website</i> :: <b><a href="http://nypumc.net/index.php?mid=woori_kyw&document_srl=19417" rel="nofollow">free pub quiz and answers</a></b>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-29905957352435988632013-02-25T11:33:51.755-08:002013-02-25T11:33:51.755-08:00(Thank you rounds are always welcome, of course. A...(Thank you rounds are always welcome, of course. Anna had been looking through my phone while I was naked.<br />The decline of the East side blues scene was disheartening, but, it also gave rise to <br />the need for a fresh start, which came in the form of the next blues-only venue, Antone's, founded by the late Clifford Antone, during the summer of 1975.<br /><br />Visit my web site - <a href="http://www.redwellgroup.com/bbs/forum/viewmember?member=JennieBac" rel="nofollow">pub quiz and answers</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-3244784990884210472013-02-22T13:38:27.365-08:002013-02-22T13:38:27.365-08:00One quick and important note: make sure you know t...One quick and important note: make sure you know the requirements and can get <br />them all accomplished for your out-of-state or out-of-country wedding.<br />(US). This is not always something that brides or grooms have time to put together on their own.<br /><br /><br />Have a look at my web site :: <a href="http://judeofascism.com/__media__/js/netsoltrademark.php?d=theweddingwebsitereview.com" rel="nofollow">Wedding website and Invitations</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-66256425683275036042013-02-21T21:20:11.575-08:002013-02-21T21:20:11.575-08:00This is easy and doesn't cost the clicker mone...This is easy and doesn't cost the clicker money but the problem is getting these individuals together. Facebook fans and you can get Facebook fans cheap if you follow the link at the bottom of this article. This is the reason why most of organizations are now being into contact with social networking solution providers.<br /><br />Also visit my blog :: <a href="http://fishingincentralma.blogspot.com/2005/07/jordan-pond.html?showComment=1360647784243" rel="nofollow">Buy Facebook Fans Cheap</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-84747363619123765042013-02-21T18:28:51.859-08:002013-02-21T18:28:51.859-08:00The decor on the inside of the restaurant is absol...The decor on the inside of the restaurant is absolutely beautiful.<br />Brazenhead is a great place to go with your family or for a business lunch or dinner, but if you <br />are looking for a party atmosphere, this isn't it. The Bull's Head Pub, Bangkok.<br /><br /><br />Here is my blog post - <a href="http://www.clevercakes.com.au" rel="nofollow">pub quiz names</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-357745180994698002013-02-21T01:32:23.202-08:002013-02-21T01:32:23.202-08:00When you stop PPC, traffic dies immediately and yo...When you stop PPC, traffic dies immediately and your business <br />is dead in the water. By using the autoresponder, you have been in <br />front of a potential customer for five days. There are many blog plug-ins such as <br />Caffeinated Content for Wordpress that pulls.<br /><br /><br />Here is my blog: <a href="http://phpedia.pl/w/index.php?title=U%C5%BCytkownik:DollieSlo" rel="nofollow">Internet Marketing Techniques</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-76954039399558988652013-02-21T00:26:26.416-08:002013-02-21T00:26:26.416-08:00Hello There. I found your blog using msn.
This is ...Hello There. I found your blog using msn.<br />This is a very well written article. I'll make sure to bookmark it and come back to read more of your useful information. Thanks for the post. I will certainly return.<br /><br />Here is my website: <a href="http://instantpartygame.com/category/kids-birthday-party-games/" rel="nofollow">kids birthday party ideas</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-32235371257095490912011-10-17T06:11:17.392-07:002011-10-17T06:11:17.392-07:00@5:12 p.m.:
Whether a three-year program is or is...@5:12 p.m.:<br /><br />Whether a three-year program is or isn't truly necessary, I believe that all discussions of what law school should do better are moot until law schools have some reason to change. Attempting to impose new curricula or pricing structures from outside won't work, unless there's some groundswell of support from Congress or the state legislatures that has emerged without anybody else knowing.<br /><br />Change will come when it's known how far from equal American law schools' employment outcomes are. Until then, we will continue to have 90%+ employment and $85,000+ median starting salaries and 100% of incoming law students lied to.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02282378622563612578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-141190908906938032011-10-16T07:43:10.709-07:002011-10-16T07:43:10.709-07:00at 5:12:
So...what I hear you saying is that movi...at 5:12:<br /><br />So...what I hear you saying is that moving forward we should fix the problem, but looking back, don't bother? I guess those people that came before are up shit creek without a paddle for the rest of their lives?<br /><br />I will accept some culpability for my mistake (going to law school) but not all of it. I was lied to and so were my colleagues. At 50K a year tuition, the law schools owe it to their students and those entering the profession to train them well, be the first to know about changes in the profession, and to be honest to their students and alumni about job placement rates. We all know this is a crock don't we. Schools only care about $$$$. Profits matter, it does not matter how many lives are destroyed, or burdened. I have spoken to my law school numerous times about these problems and all I have received are trivial answers and phony condolences. <br /><br />Your conclusions are valid but naive. Change will only come from outside the system and will have to be forceful. When you see jackasses like Aaron Taylor stating that law school is still a good investment, there is a huge problem. The old way needs to be brought down and a new one needs to be put in its place.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-21499051468477100712011-10-16T05:12:19.187-07:002011-10-16T05:12:19.187-07:00I am 7:55. John I do not agree with what you are ...I am 7:55. John I do not agree with what you are saying that Law School should only be one year, and that the second two years are unneeded. I actually believe that a three year program is needed. What I am questioning, is not the length, but whether the curriculum serves its adequate, or whether elements of it needs to be redesigned to adjust to new market demands. <br /><br />The law field is changing, structurally in a fashion this recession that I do not think the legal academy is ready to admit. Two changes that I feel are here to stay is outsourcing, and a decrease amount of employer provided training. <br />Out sourcing, is nothing new. However, it has cut down on the number of legal positions available and lawyer tract positions. For the first time, US lawyers are competing with international workforce for these positions. As a result, the salaries are being driven down for these tasks. This is new to law, but not other fields.<br /><br />The second trend, is that law firms, not like companies in other fields, do not want to pay to train new employees. The new expectation, and this is not just in the legal field, is that the employer expects you to have all the training needed to perform the job, before you are hired. <br /><br />Many attorney's do not want to invest in the necessary training, to have you leave and start your own firm in the same community. This is similar in corporate positions throughout the country today. <br /><br />Law Schools had designed their curriculum, with the expectation that the practing bar, would provide the training to its graduates to "fill the gap" If the practicing bar is not willing to, or cannot afford to, as we are seeing today with decreased hiring in government positions, big firm positions, etc., Law Schools have to adjust their curriculum. At the end of their day, it is their duty to train students to be lawyers, not the practicing bar. That is what students are paying them for the education. <br /><br />The argument that occassionally appears that Law school is a liberal arts education is wrong and misguided. Most students (if not all) signed up for law school to become lawyers, not receive a liberal arts education. <br /><br />I guess the question I posed with apprenticeship programs is what value is Law school providing. If I had done an apprentice ship program, I would have had four years experience and have only a 1/3rd of the debt. Instead, I have 6 digits worth of debt, and by market forces, expected to volunteer forty hours a week, put my loans in deferment, and work odd jobs at night and on weekends to receive training that when I signed up for law school as 0L I expected I would get. It is this disconnect that is frustrating. <br /><br />While some may blame the economy, I do not believe this trend is going to change in law, or other professional domains, in the near futre. Outsourcing, as we all know, is likely here to stay.<br /><br />I accept new rules of employment, and move on. NO one anticipated this, and no of calculated it. Blaming students and law schools is misguided. What needs to be happening is a frank conversation on how Law Schools can better train their students (ie adjust the curriculum) to meet the economy that their students face.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-85140208022754440032011-10-15T17:26:30.494-07:002011-10-15T17:26:30.494-07:00"What lawyers don't want to admit, and wh..."What lawyers don't want to admit, and what most practitioners know, is that most activities engaged in by lawyers could easily be learned by almost anyone."<br /><br />Actually this is an important point and one of the reasons that lawyers can't find jobs. Today, you have places like legalzoom or the internet that allow your average person to solve most of their legal problems on their own. Sometimes they'll get stuck but even then they don't want to pay anyone, but rather they will call you to weasel free advice out of you.<br /><br />You can't compare this to medicine at all, John, because medicine provides knowledge AND DRUGS/EQUIPMENT. Lawyers provide only knowledge.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-40269099615086538212011-10-15T15:34:28.963-07:002011-10-15T15:34:28.963-07:00I agree John, let's not get carried away. You ...I agree John, let's not get carried away. You still need a lot of knowledge to pass the bar exam.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-19678079737592194242011-10-15T14:56:23.059-07:002011-10-15T14:56:23.059-07:00@12:00 p.m.:
"What lawyers don't want to...@12:00 p.m.:<br /><br />"What lawyers don't want to admit, and what most practitioners know, is that most activities engaged in by lawyers could easily be learned by almost anyone."<br /><br />Sure, in the same way that somebody who spends a few dozen hours with a scalpel, a needle holder, sutures and room-temperature chicken breasts could perform most activities engaged in by surgeons. No one thing that a lawyer does is all that hard for your average college graduate, but synthesizing all of it for practice is probably beyond them. (Or me.)<br /><br />Hell, I'm a soon-to-be-sworn-in law graduate and I clerked for a personal injury firm for two years, but I still wouldn't trust myself to get it right if I were injured in an accident. The general public is paying for somebody who thinks about this stuff all day. I'm not saying that it's the work of a genius, but it's an exaggeration to say that LegalZoom and YouTube have erased the difference between representation by an experienced attorney and appearing pro se.<br /><br />I don't think law school taught me to read appellate cases and write memorandums of law as efficiently as it could have, but it's not like I learned absolutely nothing in three years. What I learned was a lot less than I should have learned, given the money invested - with that I could agree.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02282378622563612578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-28173559037620132612011-10-15T12:00:25.432-07:002011-10-15T12:00:25.432-07:00John:
You raise interesting points. My take (whi...John:<br /><br />You raise interesting points. My take (which coincides with some of your points):<br /><br />1. What lawyers don't want to admit, and what most practitioners know, is that most activities engaged in by lawyers could easily be learned by almost anyone. What I am really saying is that a person does not need to know the law to be a lawyer. They just need to know how to do grunt-work and learn the nuts and bolts of the law (how to file, where to file, etc..). The rest of the law is window dressing. If I need to know the law, I just look it up. Maybe, MAYBE law school teaches a person to issue spot....but anyone with half a brain will just research the law in order to find those issues. Rutter group is not that hard to use even if you don't know squat about the law. Law schools don't even teach how to file suits.<br /><br />2. Law school is nothing more than an invitation to be told that you are stupid for three years by a bunch of blowhards who are overpaid. BarBri covers it all.<br /><br />3. If you accept what I have posited, then it could be argued that law school, in order to exist, could exist as a trade school. Nothing more. But no....couldn't have that. The ABA, law professors, etc....wouldn't want their pretentious arrogant little world to be exposed. Some lawyers may feel the same way....however, lawyers may feel different if they could become lawyers without the huge debt.<br /><br />4. I have thought about opening my own practice and doing DUI law, or wills and trusts, or PI. I don't because 1) I want better for myself. I did not spend all this time educating myself to be an ambulance chaser or represent people who were arrested for DD. W/T work is brainless. The software does all the thinking. How could I in good conscience charge someone who could easily get the software themselves and write their own will? In turn, they could take it to an attorney who could look it over for a fraction of the cost. 2) All markets are flooded. Look at the phonebook. Too many lawyers chasing too few cases. 3) Bonus: collecting from clients who owe money is hard. Most clients are assholes anyway.<br /><br />This profession is doomed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-1819018633335123642011-10-15T11:51:41.617-07:002011-10-15T11:51:41.617-07:00"you spend your hours dwelling on what your p..."you spend your hours dwelling on what your professor finds interesting,"<br /><br />Let me correct that for you.<br /><br />You spend your hours learning things that could not possibly lead to accusations that the professor didn't understand the material, because no one will ever test your knowledge of these topics.<br /><br />If a professor teaches you how to do a title search, but turns out to be wrong (because he/she is an idiot, that's why they don't practice) then via a recording of that lecture + discovery of the error, you could humiliate the professor.<br /><br />Why would a professor want to put themselves in such a spot? They're better off teaching the rule of perpetuities.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-79776840213905982842011-10-15T11:25:24.126-07:002011-10-15T11:25:24.126-07:00@7:55 p.m.:
If I understand you correctly, the sy...@7:55 p.m.:<br /><br />If I understand you correctly, the systemic issue to which you refer is that law school is entirely useless after the first year (when it is only mostly useless). Aside from most state bars requiring a prospective bar admission candidate to graduate from law school, most law students would not continue going. This is not a secret, nor has it been one for a long time - but law schools keep doing what they're doing, because it's profitable and no one's making them change their offerings.<br /><br />"I think there is a bigger issue with the curriculum that prevents most people from taking the plunge (into sole practice)."<br /><br />All of the things you listed are probably true to some degree, but this is the biggest one: law school does not teach you how to do anything remotely like sole practice. You can spend a week on <i>Erie</i> because your professor loves to talk about it, and less than ten minutes on service of process despite the subject's practical importance. I knew all about the Rule on Perpetuities, but had no idea how to conduct a title search in a county land records room. Instead of learning about things for which someone might actually pay an attorney, you spend your hours dwelling on what your professor finds interesting, and if you're lucky he'll explain it to you in small words.<br /><br />It's not even enough of a preparation for the bar exam for 90%+ of the students out there to trust their fate to their outlines, even if they took all the subjects being tested on that bar.<br /><br />Transparency reform forces a law school with mediocre or terrible employment outcomes to assess what they're doing, because they won't be able to charge the same rates as schools that actually manage to place their students in real law jobs. Harvard and American may teach all the same content to their students, but if American's students are placing in law firms much less frequently and at much lower salaries, then American will probably have to offer instruction better suited to its graduates or lower its prices.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02282378622563612578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-71823460658830905742011-10-15T10:06:50.555-07:002011-10-15T10:06:50.555-07:00A lot of people do hang a shingle right out of law...A lot of people do hang a shingle right out of law school, and many make enough to barely scrape by (going on IBR, of course). All you need is a business license so it's easy to do. They don't make much money though.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-86621730419941645822011-10-15T10:00:33.317-07:002011-10-15T10:00:33.317-07:007:55: The reason nobody "hangs a shingle"...7:55: The reason nobody "hangs a shingle" is because with 200K in student loan debt you need to find clients like right after you begin practicing. Law school doesn't teach you to do this since law professors cannot, as they haven't represented clients in decades and their only practice experience was probably an associate in a large law firm where they did monkey work.<br /><br />And the people who could be your clients are middle-aged and older or lower-middle class individuals who will want to deal face-to-face with a lawyer in an office and will not trust one without an office. Then, there are tens of thousands of lawyers with actual experience competing for those same clients. Open up the Yellow Pages and look at the lawyer section- there are hundreds of advertisements. <br /><br />It is just not financially viable to start a practice with no experience, no clients, and 200K in student loan debt in a saturated field.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-59859096232616046492011-10-15T09:32:03.384-07:002011-10-15T09:32:03.384-07:00I'd only add that it would be utterly absurd t...I'd only add that it would be utterly absurd to ban the commenter calling for face to face confrontation, and protests, during a period where the nation - indeed the world - has taken up such a cause. OWS is on the front page of every news site. There's a story about how in Italy they had to bring out the water cannons to stop protests that got violent. Imagine if a law school Dean had to face this scene the next time he walked to his car, a hefty $14,000 biweekly direct deposit paystuf in his hand.<br />http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/15/world/occupy-goes-global/index.html?hpt=hp_t1<br />How long do you think it would take for him to release the job placement surveys so that we could audit them? They would be released that afternoon. <br /><br />With all due respect, the petition failed miserably, as I predicted it would. No one signed it. No one even acknowledged it. They completely ignored it, because that is what you can do to people who don't matter. The problem isn't people like me. It's people whose fear limits their action to actions that are so meek and frightened that they can be ignored.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-10174158547324614372011-10-15T09:00:17.268-07:002011-10-15T09:00:17.268-07:00settings tab, comments tab, then the entries "...settings tab, comments tab, then the entries "who can comment" and/or "comment moderation"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-45579354224371946432011-10-15T08:56:58.957-07:002011-10-15T08:56:58.957-07:00You could do it by banning anonymous commenters, f...You could do it by banning anonymous commenters, forcing everyone to get a login and banning logins you don't like. A completely unprincipled act, but it can be done.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-43429091930266776692011-10-15T08:55:24.484-07:002011-10-15T08:55:24.484-07:00Just out of curiosity, how would one go about bann...Just out of curiosity, how would one go about banning a poster anyway? Blogger doesn't seem to have an IP blocking system as far as I can tell.LawProfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-58500836055526046262011-10-15T08:42:13.437-07:002011-10-15T08:42:13.437-07:00Rather than ban those who tell you uncomfortable t...Rather than ban those who tell you uncomfortable truths, why don't you consider the possibility of accepting the fact that your problems are mainly due to your own character flaws, and that you are a meek and ineffective person who was seemingly put on this earth to be victimized, and law schools just happened to get to you before the other predators.<br /><br />You people are too scared to confront your Deans and former law professors with a simple phone call asking them to do something as basic as sign a petition! It's not law schools fault that you were made this way. Blame that on nature or nurture that occured before you went to law school.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com