tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post4543503892315156736..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: How many law schools should be operating in the United States in 2012?LawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger78125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-64149008044314792502013-02-27T23:18:29.486-08:002013-02-27T23:18:29.486-08:00You might also want to visit my blog at blog.
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I may get flamed for this - but long term...Lawprof<br /><br />I may get flamed for this - but long term I do not think the T14 have an employment problem on the scale that they currently face. Most are situated in major legal centers and are the top school in that area and/or are highly regarded as national schools. Given their high bar passage rate it also seems likely that even the bottom third of their classes are competitive with the upper third in schools ranking 20 and below, and certainly the 2 through 4th tiers. <br /><br />To some degree the argument that the shortage of jobs is due to the recession is true - the recession has caused a fall-off in legal hiring and even given the structural changes that the profession has faced sine 1991 and especially since 1998, new lawyer jobs are probably at a nadir driven by the recession. The real issues are that if and when the recession ends and the economy recovers, (a) there will still be too many law graduates for the available jobs and the more marginal graduates, those from weak law schools, with weak credentials going in and with a poor aptitude for legal practice will still be in trouble, and (b) the market will not support a general income level for lawyers high enough to justify the current cost of law school and the money so many students borrow.<br /><br />Thus, even assuming <i>arguendo</i> a recovery in legal hiring, it will only be enough to probably partially solve the problems of the T14 (job availability), but probably not enough to deal with the problem of educational debt for the T14 graduates. It will also help the higher end of the state law schools. However, if a new JD is not a graduate of a T14 school or a strong state school a recovery will still likely leave that young lawyer totally screwed. <br /><br />There are 46,000 to 50,000 law graduates a year. The economy can absorb about 15-20,000. Of those BigLaw can absorb maybe 2-3,000 or 10%. Thus there is only room for that many to be paying $50k tuition (if that) and how do we know which ones they are. The safest guess is that the t14 is about 7,500 and some states schools will add another 7,500.MacKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10442386017204584747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-72007152358907061502012-04-11T09:11:49.439-07:002012-04-11T09:11:49.439-07:00If the government wants to provide more affordable...If the government wants to provide more affordable legal services to the poor, then the government or the bar can subsidize the provision of affordable legal services to the poor with money or mandated public service (all lawyers must do x hours of annual pro bono work).<br /><br />Subsidizing crappy law schools and crappy law students will not serve this goal -- at least not efficiently. And to the extent that it does so inefficiently, it will provide the poor with the poorest of lawyers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-23455209058981210022012-04-11T07:58:59.742-07:002012-04-11T07:58:59.742-07:00And even when law school was far less costly, lega...And even when law school was far less costly, legal services were too expensive for many people. Back in the 1970s observers were lamenting the fact that people lacked access to affordable legal services.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-45854832672056753222012-04-11T06:46:39.479-07:002012-04-11T06:46:39.479-07:00When will someone talk about attorney job *creatio...When will someone talk about attorney job *creation*? From practicing in several firms these past 10 years and starting my own, I clearly see there is large demand for attorney services. But as my former bosses used to say, just not enough people who can afford to pay (our rates) to receive them. <br /><br />This problem can be addressed by the academic and capital enterprises as well as government and the bar. Somehow we pay engineers high salaries and blue collar laborers high wages to build the tunnels, wells, and plumbing to get cheap clean water the masses at cheap prices. Why can't we figure out how to get more legal services to more people so that there are plenty of highly paid jobs for lawyers?<br /><br />I agree crummy law schools should be closed down and transparency is an absolute must. But the demand in the true economic sense - the desire and ability to pay at a price we are happy to provide - is what needs to be addressed and worked on. People and businesses clearly need more legal help! I turn down people fairly often because they cannot pay.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-20446920548890227342012-04-11T06:37:28.230-07:002012-04-11T06:37:28.230-07:00"You're repeating a line about employment..."You're repeating a line about employment out of T-14 schools that bears no relation at all to reality. Huge numbers of grads from these schools are either getting no real legal jobs at all, or jobs that don't come close to paying their debts."<br /><br />LawProf,<br /><br />T14 3L here. I think that's mostly accurate. I can't find anything. Decent grades too. One caveat though: as much as it's been a frustrating experience, I do think us T14 unemployeds are still in a significantly better situation than our unemployed colleagues who went to lower-ranked shops. I mean, I can occasionally get a conversation or an interview on the back of my institution, which isn't much, but it's something.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-39530101222132081342012-04-11T06:30:42.568-07:002012-04-11T06:30:42.568-07:00We need to look more closely at the fundamental re...We need to look more closely at the fundamental reasons the ABA (our trade organization) is so eager to ruin the profession. Yes, I know that the accreditation committee is comprised of law school deans for the most part but the bulk of the membership is not. How did the ABA allow a small cohort hijack such an important economic function to its membership as the supply of lawyers? So the big firms have more cannon fodder? But the majority of lawyers in the ABA are not big firm lawyers, are they? <br /><br />As for the anti-trust excuse, that is nonsense. The ABA could devise ways to get around that if it wanted to. It just doesn't seem to want to.<br /><br />I believe much, perhaps not all, of the solution lies with the ABA .Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01659995537790248686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-12040492840466145712012-04-11T05:47:34.593-07:002012-04-11T05:47:34.593-07:00Here's what the doctors did early last century...Here's what the doctors did early last century: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexner_Report.<br /><br />I advocated months ago that we need to close half the schools. We could allow the best 15 or so private institutions and reserve one public school for each state. Then, divy up another 30 or so public schools to the states by population. Since the ABA is extremely unlikely to do this, is there any possibility to have state governments place limits on the number of schools in there own state?<br /><br />-TemplarAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-39191957992618713532012-04-11T05:24:19.852-07:002012-04-11T05:24:19.852-07:00When I was at the newly(all of 3 or 4 years I thin...When I was at the newly(all of 3 or 4 years I think) ABA accredited Touro Law School in the 1990's, there was much talk about how Touro was going to relocate and become integrated within a newly built Federal Court Complex on Long Island. <br /><br />It was to become the first Law School to do so, and that the students would someday benefit from being "on location" so to speak and be able to observe the workings of the system, take notes, shoulder chuck judges and senior attorneys and heckle from high up in the wings of the federal courtrooms.<br /><br />I thought for sure that someday Touro would move up from the fourth tier when all of that would take place, and that my degree would go up in prestige/perception as well. <br /><br />Well, during the first Millenial decade the move did eventually take place, and Touro did all that it had planned. <br /><br />However, when I learned in 2010 (after the Jobless Juris Doctor and Third Tier Reality posted rather negatively about Touro) thaat Touro was still in the 4th Tier according to USNWR, I was pretty surprised.<br /><br />But of course, Mr. Morse, and his USNWR has redone its rankings methodology, and I say "Good Oh" to that: a cool and soothing rankings unguent on the hot pustule of the law school scam.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-18930728369489700582012-04-10T22:38:03.647-07:002012-04-10T22:38:03.647-07:00And I mean HYS by T3 in case readers dont know>...And I mean HYS by T3 in case readers dont know>Harvard Yale StanfordAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-90963186651037909212012-04-10T22:36:43.511-07:002012-04-10T22:36:43.511-07:00How can someone claim that T4 schools are not in t...How can someone claim that T4 schools are not in trouble? Maybe T6 but probably only T3 are safe enough to attend at sticker.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-62277367474265804702012-04-10T21:24:56.932-07:002012-04-10T21:24:56.932-07:00We all have these ideas for how to address the pro...We all have these ideas for how to address the problem.<br /><br />The problem isn't coming up with ideas. <br /><br />The problem is that we work in a broken political system so its not clear if any idea we come up with will mater.<br /><br />I am not trying to depressing. I have just been thinking through the problem. The problem isn't a lack of solutions. The problem is that we live in a system that has no sense of systemic solutions. Its all about the individual, short term needs and wants.<br /><br />Any solutions that we can think of requires a different approach to how voters, and more importantly, politicians think.<br /><br />Bruh RabbitAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-32118830236905560522012-04-10T19:51:19.883-07:002012-04-10T19:51:19.883-07:00Rick Santorum is going to be standing in line for ...Rick Santorum is going to be standing in line for an Attorney's job & he is going to jump in front of you to get it...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-44506386503096810022012-04-10T18:44:30.017-07:002012-04-10T18:44:30.017-07:00If the "you're" is referring to me a...If the "you're" is referring to me at 5:49-- I do believe that people in 3rd and 4th tier law schools are likely to be in greater jeopardy, even when the economy gets better. The problems there are bigger and require, I think, more sustained consideration than what is happening in the T14. Of course there are problems there. But, I do not think anyone is seriously talking about whether any of the T14 schools should even exist.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-50456653936478614132012-04-10T18:11:44.346-07:002012-04-10T18:11:44.346-07:00no more than 50, one in each stateno more than 50, one in each stateAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-58071970864110847162012-04-10T18:03:22.700-07:002012-04-10T18:03:22.700-07:00Wall St. Journal Best and Worst Jobs of 2012. I&#...Wall St. Journal Best and Worst Jobs of 2012. I'm surprised attorney is as high as #87.<br /> <br />http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303772904577336230132805276.html?mod=e2tw<br /><br />But remember you can do anything with a law degree! (like "the arts") And law schools are molding the future leaders of society! Hey at least we are just one ahead of Vending Machine Repairer (do you think that means I'm too overqualified to get a job as one - half joking)SD Attnynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-21492037942104190172012-04-10T17:59:28.749-07:002012-04-10T17:59:28.749-07:00You're repeating a line about employment out o...You're repeating a line about employment out of T-14 schools that bears no relation at all to reality. Huge numbers of grads from these schools are either getting no real legal jobs at all, or jobs that don't come close to paying their debts.LawProfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-52324212232295660892012-04-10T17:49:19.659-07:002012-04-10T17:49:19.659-07:00They may "suffer", but it will not be l...They may "suffer", but it will not be like schools below them. <br /><br />And that form of joke-- 1977, or whatever year "called" and they want this or that or the other thing done, or back-- is played out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-33216648050002610192012-04-10T17:44:28.994-07:002012-04-10T17:44:28.994-07:00"The T14 Law School are really not going to s..."The T14 Law School are really not going to suffer..Sure they may have one or two students who may fall by the wayside and that could be because they did not pass the Bar on the first try..."<br /><br />1988 would like you to leave now.LawProfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.com