tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post3664143255004736764..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: Top 30 law school continues to tout phony employment stats to prospective studentsLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger138125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-52446944109895502632012-12-18T13:42:43.980-08:002012-12-18T13:42:43.980-08:00This Job offer in alaska looks quite interesting.h...This Job offer in alaska looks quite interesting.http://agency.governmentjobs.com/northslope/default.cfm?action=viewJob&jobID=564603 <br /><br />Jobs like these would make me want to go for the Alaska bar exam. 3500$biWeekly is a pretty good salary. The only problem is: who the hell has 2 years of LEGAL experience other than the graduates who's dads/dads-friends own law firms?Anonymous001https://www.blogger.com/profile/16420295567822605145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-82038019975899743462012-12-08T18:28:20.606-08:002012-12-08T18:28:20.606-08:00After reading the transcript of this online "...After reading the transcript of this online "chat" it is more than obvious that the whole thing was a fake with all of the questions and answers probably typed out in advance. I know two people who were logged in an they said they could not get their questions taken, and thought it was a phony live event.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-8103075688385988122012-12-08T10:41:46.388-08:002012-12-08T10:41:46.388-08:00Affirmed. The competency of this place is not cons...Affirmed. The competency of this place is not consistent with its cost or arrogance. The administration is an absolute confederacy of dunces.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-42327743196189849192012-12-07T21:53:25.071-08:002012-12-07T21:53:25.071-08:00I agree that my method is not scientific, but its ...I agree that my method is not scientific, but its hard to believe that a JD has ZERO internet presence, specially if that JD has a job.<br /><br />The numbers that I have include jobs that are short-term, part-time, low-pay, etc., specially the small firm positions. The 56-percent figure that Campos cites from LST includes only full-time, long-term legal jobs.<br /><br />The 90% is misleading at best.<br /><br />As for the affordability of legal services, it is very hard to bring low-cost legal services to the market. Just ask any public interest lawyer how they are coping. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-49827947339729627042012-12-07T19:10:05.310-08:002012-12-07T19:10:05.310-08:00Even not accounting for errors in method (not ever...Even not accounting for errors in method (not everyone is on the Internet - some are pursuing more schooling and others have chosen to just be stay at home moms) this is still at least 80% employment. Not ideal but not what the professor claims which is a statistic based on 9 months post-graduation. The class of 2011 is the last class that made the commitment to law school while the legal market was still good. Each class enrolling after that had the opportunity to see or find out that the market was contracting. Nonetheless, no one claimed that it has been easy to find employment and many have struggled in the past year. <br /><br />Yet even with a surplus of lawyers, how is it still that the majority of people cannot afford even the most basic legal services. Yes, people should be properly informed prior to making the decision to take on an expensive professional degree, but there is an opportunity for the surplus of those looking for work to be pioneeringAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-14032534741182950142012-12-07T18:50:16.976-08:002012-12-07T18:50:16.976-08:00Yes, the oversupply does affect older lawyers too....Yes, the oversupply does affect older lawyers too. As an "older" (10 years out) lawyer, I have been stuck in a job I hate, which I STUPIDLY accepted in 2008, right before everything went to pot. I work for a federal agency, but I hate the practice area and the overwork/stress. I have been actively looking for another, better job pretty much from my second or third month in this job. For 2008-2011, there was nothing to look for, so my search didn't take up very much of my time! No jobs posted, no jobs available, nothing. This past year I have expanded my search to a new city (DC) where most of the federal jobs are. Despite that, I had only 5 interviews last year, and 3 of them were initial telephone/screening interviews. Fed. government is a little different in that many jobs can be filled at a variety of grade levels, so I actually am competing with newly graduated attorneys, all the way up through attorneys with decades of practice. Everyone wants in. I consider myself lucky to even have had the number of interviews I have had. I was doing a similar search in 2006-07 (when I ended up getting the current, ill-advised job) and it was totally different. Easily got multiple interviews in various cities, even with no connection to the city. Had two job offers, one federal, one from a firm. Jobs were willing to look at you even if you didn't have the exact precise practice experience relating to the job. Now, I have 4 more years of experience, and I get half the consideration I got last time. The only way I can think that this oversupply would NOT affect older lawyers is if those lawyers had no desire to ever leave the jobs they are in. And even then, as others note, they can still get pushed out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-48996067896264913352012-12-07T17:36:26.664-08:002012-12-07T17:36:26.664-08:00Also, to add to this comment, I do not know if the...Also, to add to this comment, I do not know if the jobs above are part-time/full-time, short-term/long-term, salaried/hourly, etc.<br /><br />I do have some anecdotal evidence about them, but that's hearsayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-52871529935719153882012-12-07T17:25:53.471-08:002012-12-07T17:25:53.471-08:00Repasting my comment from above:
I am also a 2011...Repasting my comment from above:<br /><br />I am also a 2011 grad from King Hall. I went through each of the alum on the alumni directory and did an internet search to see where they all ended up. I used linkedin, avvo, state bar website, facebook, and other resources.<br /><br />Here are some of my findings (Correct me if I am wrong or if you have more info):<br />Out of 192 graduates: <br />24 grads are in BigLaw<br />18 are in Midsize firms<br />14 are in Small/boutique firms with relatively prominent attorneys<br />28 are in small firms with attorneys that are not as prominent<br />3 are with Big 4 Accounting Firms (Tax ppl)<br />4 are clerking with Article III or State Appellate level judges<br />3 are clerking with lower level judges (magistrate, state superior, etc.)<br />2 are with the US DOJ<br />5 are with the Fed Gov't (non-attorney positions)<br />6 are with the CA AG or with another State Department<br />4 are in-house (2 of them with an insurance company)<br />9 are either D.A.s or P.D.s<br />11 are in Public Interest<br />16 are with non-profits/NGOs<br />4 are in post-grad/LLM programs<br />3 are solo practitioners<br /><br />35 are either unemployed - practically confirmed (I know some of them, they are looking) or are those that I could not find on the internet anywhere - which seems kinda odd, given that if someone was working, they would want others to know.<br /><br />This does not seem like a good enough outcome for a school that charged $42,000 during our 3L year. <br /><br />Blame the economy, but don't defend those that do not tell the full truth about their career statistics.<br /><br />For the record - I am employed in a full-time, long-term legal job.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-68110204846024554162012-12-07T17:12:56.847-08:002012-12-07T17:12:56.847-08:00@ OP - I am also a 2011 grad from King Hall. I wen...@ OP - I am also a 2011 grad from King Hall. I went through each of the alum on the alumni directory and did an internet search to see where they all ended up. I used linkedin, avvo, state bar website, facebook, and other resources.<br /><br />Here are some of my findings (Correct me if I am wrong or if you have more info):<br />Out of 192 graduates: <br />24 grads are in BigLaw<br />18 are in Midsize firms<br />14 are in Small/boutique firms with relatively prominent attorneys<br />28 are in small firms with attorneys that are not as prominent<br />3 are with Big 4 Accounting Firms (Tax ppl)<br />4 are clerking with Article III or State Appellate level judges<br />3 are clerking with lower level judges (magistrate, state superior, etc.)<br />2 are with the US DOJ<br />5 are with the Fed Gov't (non-attorney positions)<br />6 are with the CA AG or with another State Department<br />4 are in-house (2 of them with an insurance company)<br />9 are either D.A.s or P.D.s<br />11 are in Public Interest<br />16 are with non-profits/NGOs<br />4 are in post-grad/LLM programs<br />3 are solo practitioners<br /><br />35 are either unemployed - practically confirmed (I know some of them, they are looking) or are those that I could not find on the internet anywhere - which seems kinda odd, given that if someone was working, they would want others to know.<br /><br />This does not seem like a good enough outcome for a school that charged $42,000 during our 3L year. <br /><br />Blame the economy, but don't defend those that do not tell the full truth about their career statistics.<br /><br />For the record - I am employed in a full-time, long-term legal job.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-67269994735321675132012-12-07T08:52:55.776-08:002012-12-07T08:52:55.776-08:00Not human interest. There is a growing supply of o...Not human interest. There is a growing supply of older lawyers who are just as affected by the surplus as younger lawyers. <br /><br />My practice area, which most people start at in big law firms, has few open jobs for experienced lawyers. It also has a pretty big up or out factor in house, with the difference between law firms and in house being that up or out in house really takes hold in one's 50s and thereafter. If you are trying to work in the last third of your career in house, it is going to be hard to keep that job absent manager status, where you are in a very high level position.<br /><br />It is very hard to work as an experienced lawyer in what I do. Half maybe of my peers are unemployed or in temporary work. Not what one signed up for unemployment or temporary work when they went to law school.<br /><br />I had other options at college - good science and math skills and could have pursued just about any career. law was a huge mistake.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-25255089830571942292012-12-07T06:45:00.020-08:002012-12-07T06:45:00.020-08:00Not really, new law school graduates don't rea...Not really, new law school graduates don't really compete with older ones, except on a very few fronts (low-cost criminal defense comes to mind) so oversupply caused by new graduates doesn't really hit them that hard, though oversupply of experienced lawyers certainly does. I was skimming through the classified section of my bar journal and was surprised by how many lawyers are competing in even niche fields of law.<br /><br />Personally, I've left the field (to go to a funded PhD program) so unless my life takes a horrible turn the law school scam has already done it's damage to me, and the continuance of the scam doesn't really impact me. <br /><br />I remain fascinanted/disgusted by the issue and come here for two main reasons:<br /><br />1. The sheer villainy displayed by those supposed pillars of society, the law school deans and faculty, is breathtaking, and makes me angry. I want to see them get what's coming to them in the end and I think that's going to happen. And this blog is where it's going to be played out. Stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family is one thing, intentionally lying to people to get them to support your cushy lifestyle is something completely different. A law school dean with integrity would reduce salaries and increase teaching loads, and a law professor with self-respect would accept that and still be grateful they were able to keep doing their job. When law schools start to close the greed of these people is going to catch up with them, 80% of law professors are going to be unemployable either elsewhere in academia or in the non-academic job market.<br /> <br />2. Yes, sympathy for recent grads. They're getting a rotten deal, though at this point most of the people currently in law school have been given enough information to have avoided it. And, as anyone who's been to law school has realized, a good chunk of people who self-select to go there are kind of jerks. But being a jerk should not be punished by having your life ruined by debt.<br /><br />Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01310705673888220968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-66222651546065357192012-12-07T06:35:19.389-08:002012-12-07T06:35:19.389-08:00Sure,what do you have to lose I've emailed man...Sure,what do you have to lose I've emailed many of them when they are mentioned here. You have to make them start thinking about what they are doing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-23091715624244000312012-12-07T06:34:26.155-08:002012-12-07T06:34:26.155-08:00I think it is like being in a public restroom with...I think it is like being in a public restroom with a bad stall. As you are walking out and see another gal walking in you say "I suggest going to a restroom on another floor if possible. . If you go in there, don't use the one in the middle. Someone took a huge crap that won't flush, peed on the seat and puked on the floor in there." I really have no reason to warn her other than to be kind, so she doesn't have to peek in that stall - except maybe to indicate that I am not the one who left the mess. I guess I am also telling her about it so I have an opportunity to share my disgust with the whole situation. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-86028581830222734082012-12-07T06:25:37.782-08:002012-12-07T06:25:37.782-08:00I suggest everyone visit the Tulsa site and take a...I suggest everyone visit the Tulsa site and take a look at it. Everyone send a note to the Tulsa employee at the bottom of the offending page.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-26813340237503417682012-12-07T05:23:45.801-08:002012-12-07T05:23:45.801-08:00I don't know the reasons why established lawye...I don't know the reasons why established lawyers take an interest in this. I do know, from recent experience, that unemployed scam victims have good reasons to avoid commenting on (or even reading) blogs like this. Recent graduates (defined loosely) really don't want to accept that the things said in this blog are true. They would much rather believe the likes of Dean Mitchell than Professor Campos. They want to believe that they are just experiencing a rough patch right now, but "in the long run", their legal education is going to pay off and they are going to find career success.<br /><br />So it would not surprise me at all to know that most of the commenters here are established lawyers who don't have an emotional stake in whether Campos' depiction of the situation is accurate. They can see the evil in the scam while, at the same time, not getting terribly depressed about the significance that evil has for their own lives.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-84999667770219442152012-12-07T03:07:41.054-08:002012-12-07T03:07:41.054-08:00Here is a question, and the academics can sit this...Here is a question, and the academics can sit this one out.<br /><br />Did all of the "oversupply" of "extra" lawyers after the "crash of 2008" make it harder on all of the lawyers from all generations (boomers included) that exist and of all ages, or does the oversupply after 2008 merely affect the batch that came out of law school from 2008 to the current day?<br /><br />In other words, and regardless of respective school ranking, does the oversupply of lawyers in the marketplace being produced now have any effect on seemingly "established" lawyers/people actually practicing and/or working in the legal profession?<br /><br />If so, that might explain why so many older lawyers seem to take an avid interest in commenting on this blog.<br /><br />Unless they are taking an interest out of simple human kindness and sympathy want what is best for the profession for all who are in it. But that sounds a little naive, doesn't it? <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-49206132225586534412012-12-07T02:48:09.755-08:002012-12-07T02:48:09.755-08:00You know the outcome of everyone in you class? Pl...You know the outcome of everyone in you class? Please report the results here. How many got biglaw? How many clerked? How many are working at midsize firms? How many in firms of 10 or less?<br />How many passed the bar?<br /><br />One of the admins on TLS is a Davis grad and he confirms Lawprofs idea that getting a job is difficult from Davis.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-40094876650165054032012-12-07T02:26:32.826-08:002012-12-07T02:26:32.826-08:00Then why are the numbers repoted to the ABA differ...Then why are the numbers repoted to the ABA different than what he told the group of prospects?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-28985491897542446282012-12-07T02:01:21.849-08:002012-12-07T02:01:21.849-08:00Brings a new meaning to the phrase "making pa...Brings a new meaning to the phrase "making partner" . . . Gilman Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06607416440240634159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-48217586185794129392012-12-06T23:03:19.918-08:002012-12-06T23:03:19.918-08:00Who cares if it's 90%? What matters are the KI...Who cares if it's 90%? What matters are the KIND of jobs that people managed to get.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-88292126516929782702012-12-06T22:59:16.961-08:002012-12-06T22:59:16.961-08:00UC Davis undergrad here. Our administration is ove...UC Davis undergrad here. Our administration is overflowing with incompetent assholes in every office, all aspects of our institution are horribly overpriced, housing costs are astronomical, and our law students are miserable people whose Plan A is to work for free for their state legislators until they finally land a 30k-per-year job. I honestly do not believe the statistics LawProf dug up. UC Davis Law cannot be that good.<br />When I went to a pre-law adviser who was a law student, they explained that it was really hard to find a job because of the competition from the McGeorge School of Law (apparently McG's students network better and get all the good jobs in the Capitol).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-13750723427263155972012-12-06T20:08:06.904-08:002012-12-06T20:08:06.904-08:00don't forget this at UC Davis
http://www.yout...don't forget this at UC Davis<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AdDLhPwpp4<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmfIuKelOt4Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-24675114264422286732012-12-06T19:54:12.163-08:002012-12-06T19:54:12.163-08:0010:59 Tulsa grad here again. Most of the people th...10:59 Tulsa grad here again. Most of the people that I still keep in touch with that graduated with me in the early 2000s do not practice law. We either could not find jobs that paid well (30-40K range) or could not find legal employment PERIOD. The only people (that I know for sure) that make a good living practicing law are the top 5%. Most of my colleagues have six figure debt and are drowning in it. I wish I could turn back the clock. Law school was the biggest mistake I ever made and I will be paying my loans forever.<br /><br />I get depressed because of the debt. Even though I make decent money, the debt weighs me down. I feel like I will never have a normal life (owning a home, marriage, kids) because of the debt.<br /><br />When I applied to law school, I was foolish to believe the statistics in the application packet and brochures. <br /><br />A law degree is NOT versatile or a good idea. People who aren't hip to the scam assume you are a failure if you aren't practicing law. <br /><br />I get so angry when I look on my alma mater's website and watch them post garbage stories to attract more suckers. They are disgusting and shameless.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-15114369246186654132012-12-06T19:41:43.479-08:002012-12-06T19:41:43.479-08:00Maybe you hang out with the wrong crowd...Maybe you hang out with the wrong crowd...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-33885663792810060972012-12-06T19:34:29.112-08:002012-12-06T19:34:29.112-08:00I do not think it is whining by the way to observe...I do not think it is whining by the way to observe that all law jobs in the private sector are up or out. That is something that 0Ls do not understand. All sorts of smug 35 year olds post as to how great their in-house jobs are. The 55 year olds who have not reached the pinnacle of the profession have no jobs at all. Comes down for most people to only a fraction of the 40 year career unless you can go to government or small business.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com