tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post3064481365362965456..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: First Steps Toward ReformLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-45543296405938606202011-08-31T07:54:54.538-07:002011-08-31T07:54:54.538-07:00The solution, which already has been suggested, is...The solution, which already has been suggested, is pretty simple and straightforward: (1) cap the amount of money a student can borrow, and (2) make the law schools refund all or part of the defaulted loans back to the government.<br /> <br />This situation is little different from fraudsters who would sell home mortgages to people who could not afford them, but took none of the risk of those bad loans.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-43401526622491305912011-08-22T08:55:55.999-07:002011-08-22T08:55:55.999-07:00With Jim Schwartz at the helm, the Lions may be in...With Jim Schwartz at the helm, the Lions may be in the Super Bowl faster than people think. =)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-86295541474491136662011-08-18T13:19:30.436-07:002011-08-18T13:19:30.436-07:00Much of the increase in costs has come from trying...Much of the increase in costs has come from trying to make the school attractive to students ('name' professors, great facilities, lots of staff for hand-holding). It's a vicious cycle, since the rising costs mean prospective students look for these amenities to justify the 'investment' they're going to make.sysadmnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09208769396923431693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-72478564021770387112011-08-17T04:51:59.993-07:002011-08-17T04:51:59.993-07:00When you lie - knowingly - to get money out of pe...When you lie - knowingly - to get money out of people, it's a scam.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04034378179943090607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-91180083589090633682011-08-16T19:41:35.329-07:002011-08-16T19:41:35.329-07:00"all things being equal" contains a whol..."all things being equal" contains a whole lot.<br /> All things are never equal.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-83925627922219766462011-08-16T18:56:32.225-07:002011-08-16T18:56:32.225-07:00It's a proxy for value. All else being equal, ...It's a proxy for value. All else being equal, cheaper schools would provide more value for the dollar than would expensive ones.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-7395254904208807672011-08-16T16:02:01.962-07:002011-08-16T16:02:01.962-07:00The cheapest would be the best value just on the r...The cheapest would be the best value just on the raw number?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-80166827973836174522011-08-16T15:53:28.481-07:002011-08-16T15:53:28.481-07:00"What would ranking by tuition signal?"
..."What would ranking by tuition signal?"<br /><br />-------------------------------<br /><br />Value?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-75957545065647047112011-08-16T14:41:07.278-07:002011-08-16T14:41:07.278-07:00Shark: I looked at salaries for library staff at 5...Shark: I looked at salaries for library staff at 5 schools (Texas, UVA, SUNY, W&M, and Michigan), and the average cost per student per year for the library was $1200. And that's just the staff salaries, not benefits, not the cost of the facility itself, or the books, or other expenses.<br /><br />Here's the article on that: http://bit.ly/iSkjCK<br /><br />As for the issue of expenditure per student, I can see why that is relevant. What should happen though is either that amount should be discounted for tuition, or have a just another score for (low) tuition.BL1Yhttp://www.constitutionaldaily.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-85439113753736177492011-08-16T13:40:20.870-07:002011-08-16T13:40:20.870-07:00Expenditure per student is supposed to be a surrog...Expenditure per student is supposed to be a surrogate for quality. What would ranking by tuition signal, other than the raw information?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-42491928805893990462011-08-16T12:09:14.465-07:002011-08-16T12:09:14.465-07:00What is missing in this post, and all of the subse...What is missing in this post, and all of the subsequent comments is that the identified expenditures are all used as criteria for determining the ranking of schools.<br />-------------------<br /><br />I agree. The fact that US News ranks schools by expenditure per student, but not by tuition(!!!), is one of the most bizarre things about the industry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-22771070678486267152011-08-16T12:05:47.431-07:002011-08-16T12:05:47.431-07:00Great issue spotting Anonymous at 11:56Great issue spotting Anonymous at 11:56Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-24949735315942938072011-08-16T11:58:42.556-07:002011-08-16T11:58:42.556-07:00Good point, Bl1Y. Here's another question: How...Good point, Bl1Y. Here's another question: How much of the library budget is that 80 k? I would guess that law libraries are multimillion dollar enterprises. The 80 k would be a lot of money, but not a huge percentage in in a 2 million dollar budget. So, if we get to a point where a library costs 500 k to operate, where is the rest going to go? You can bet it won't get back to the students.<br /><br />Anon @ 11:19, good points as well. For better or for worse, many students still trust their profs and admins. Prof and admins abuse that trust, and if they don't get on board by admitting there's a problem, and reforming the system, they're going to get left behind. Profs and admins need to show some leadership skills.Shark Sandwichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08866373313029422313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-1243335217048988472011-08-16T11:56:51.027-07:002011-08-16T11:56:51.027-07:00What is missing in this post, and all of the subse...What is missing in this post, and all of the subsequent comments is that the identified expenditures are all used as criteria for determining the ranking of schools. I understand that the ranking of schools has become an enormous collective action problem, often bemoaned by the legal academy. I would challenge academics seriously interested in pursuing meaningful cost reforms to apply their intellectual firepower toward finding a way to get their balance sheets out of the rankings. Ranking schools based on expenses is almost certain to drive the cost of legal education higher despite the best efforts of concerned faculty.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-36866495242400059302011-08-16T11:23:56.495-07:002011-08-16T11:23:56.495-07:00How big of a school is that with $80,000 a year in...How big of a school is that with $80,000 a year in West and Lexis fees?<br /><br />If you're on the small side, say 700 total full-time enrollment, that's $114 per student, for both Lexis, and West. Considering that a single search can cost that much, $114 per year per student is very close to free. Less than the cost of a single text book.BL1Yhttp://www.constitutionaldaily.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-13537450732579980252011-08-16T11:19:35.563-07:002011-08-16T11:19:35.563-07:00This is in reply to the Anonymous post at 10:01 re...This is in reply to the Anonymous post at 10:01 regarding use of the word "scam."<br /><br />The use of the word scam does exactly as it is intends: shines the spotlight directly on the issue bringing it front and center. Lawprof has quickly garnered much attention in a matter of days. The time for cordial discourse and discussion is over. <br /><br />The problem has reached a breaking point. Former students are suing law schools for deceptive and fraudulent practices (Thomas Jefferson, Cooley.) A number of schools have been caught straight up lying about incoming class statistics. Not using creative accounting, just intentionally give false information to the ABA for US News ranking purposes (Villanova, BLS).<br /><br />At least two United States representatives have started to formally question the ABA.<br /><br />We now have other legal academics personally attacking and threatening Lawprof. (I.E. Brian Leiter, though I'm sure no one was surprised by his behavior).<br /><br />Lives will continue to be ruined unless something drastic happens. There are too many entrenched forces at play; forces slowly manipulating the legal academic institution through decades of self-interested action, finally bringing "law school" to its current untenable state.<br /><br />No matter who you want to blame, law professors as individuals or a group, school administrations, the ABA, U.S News, the U.S. government's guarantee of nondischargable debt - they are all to blame to some extent. Their actions all aptly fit somewhere on a continuum starting with questionable self-interested action and ending with downright unethical behavior.<br /><br />Throughout all of this the one group consistently screwed is the very group the legal academic institution purports to protect - the students. For many students and recent graduates, the word "scam" is a perfect description of the current state of law school and the value of a law degree.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-25490136434099388602011-08-16T10:55:57.428-07:002011-08-16T10:55:57.428-07:00As a law librarian, I would also like to speak to ...As a law librarian, I would also like to speak to the library cost issue. The Lexis/Westlaw duopoly do give schools a break on their services in order to hook students into doing their research online. But library material costs have been steadily rising faster than inflation. <br /><br />West, as the principle legal publisher, is a far from benign publisher of print materials. Costs keep rising every year and they have replaced pocket parts [a cheap update] for annual paper supplements. Another example is West's nutshell series. When I was in law school these cost $5.00 whereas now they are $35 and over. This is typical of the price escalation. The source of this price gouging has been lax antitrust enforcement as more and more independent legal publishers have been purchased by the big two.<br /><br />BNA has recently raised its online subscription rates significantly. Most schools are cutting back on print materials and some online services.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-13861701392861233012011-08-16T10:54:56.070-07:002011-08-16T10:54:56.070-07:00When I was library director, a few years ago, we w...When I was library director, a few years ago, we were paying around $80,000 per year for both services.<br /><br />-------------------------<br /><br />Thanks. Interesting. That has to be a subsidized rate though, right? Considering that the students have access to law reviews, treatises and all cases. What does it cost per year at a firm?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-50173547317219940182011-08-16T10:54:00.414-07:002011-08-16T10:54:00.414-07:00Law schools and higher education raise tuition eve...Law schools and higher education raise tuition every year because they can; the extra costs are simply passed onto the federal government.<br /><br />--------------------<br /><br />This is true, but what's scary is to think of the Tea Party gaining control at some point - eliminating student loan subsidies like deferments, IBR and such and then all of the sudden you have to make a $2,000/month student loan payment!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-12717090791306089852011-08-16T10:53:13.382-07:002011-08-16T10:53:13.382-07:00Law schools and higher education raise tuition eve...Law schools and higher education raise tuition every year because they can; the extra costs are simply passed onto the federal government.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-20582207264477975202011-08-16T10:25:39.979-07:002011-08-16T10:25:39.979-07:00Westlaw and Lexis are most definitely not free to ...Westlaw and Lexis are most definitely not free to law schools. When I was library director, a few years ago, we were paying around $80,000 per year for both services. Pricing is based on student FTE, so larger schools pay significantly more.James Milleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07368391001719650329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-80657781473983684332011-08-16T10:01:49.752-07:002011-08-16T10:01:49.752-07:00Good thing I'm also Chairman of the Board of A...Good thing I'm also Chairman of the Board of Access Group; my $520,000 per year salary as dean of New York Law School doesn't go too far with the cost of living in New York City.<br /><br />Thank god for all the Access Group student loans that we originate at NYLS. I'm not sure if you know, but Access Group is the default loan provider at NYLS. At $50,000 per year in tuition, that's a lot of Access Group-originated cash into NYLS's coffers. And our bank account grows and grows.<br /><br />One hand certainly does wash the other.Dean Ma$$a$arnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-75002596255113945662011-08-16T10:01:29.722-07:002011-08-16T10:01:29.722-07:00I spent my life in this business, at a top tier la...I spent my life in this business, at a top tier law school. I published, I taught, I litigated high profile law reform lawsuits. I had a good time and I was paid well. That said, LawProf is right-on about the current situation. But as an old trial lawyer/professor I object to use of the word "scam"--it serves no purpose other than to take the potential reader's eye off the ball. It is a word pregnant with meaning, much of which is not relevant to the purpose of the blog. Indeed, the cold, hard truth is hard enough to take. Most of my colleagues over the years were not bad folks but they were (and are) blind to the reality of their enterprise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-68148948042472261272011-08-16T09:39:53.196-07:002011-08-16T09:39:53.196-07:00Take away government support in the form of studen...Take away government support in the form of student loans and this whole bubble self-corrects in a few years.<br /><br />Law schools and higher education raise tuition every year because they can; the extra costs are simply passed onto the federal government.<br /><br />Student loans have been a complete failure; they have corrupted higher education to the point that all these institutions now mostly care about revenues than actual education.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-52693608201074442002011-08-16T09:29:28.099-07:002011-08-16T09:29:28.099-07:00Another tuition driver is student loans. If the g...Another tuition driver is student loans. If the government wouldn't gaurantee a student loan of more than $X per semester, then tuition would probably be about $X per semester.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com