tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post2047078189641055711..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: Risky decisionsLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger100125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-47623750617655182682012-07-22T14:17:53.167-07:002012-07-22T14:17:53.167-07:00so are young people supposed to avoid law school s...so are young people supposed to avoid law school so that you OLD FART lawyers can stay in control? I'm so sick of selfish baby-boomers, like you...let you keep your good job and young people work at macdonald's, right? i'm not young...but i love young people...you old farts need to get out of the way and retire...how much viagara have you taken this week, huh?!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-71006629221744812462012-07-18T19:32:00.195-07:002012-07-18T19:32:00.195-07:00I eschewed the law school path directly out of und...I eschewed the law school path directly out of undergrad (c/o 2009) because I was attuned to this fiasco.<br /><br />Now, I'm revisiting law school because I probably have the skill-set for it, I want to join the middle class, and---let's be honest---my parents are pressuring me to do it, since it's a "sure thing."<br /><br />Well, I've been doing my research and it just sounds terrible, especially reading posts (and comments) like these. <br /><br />Ultimately, it just looks worse and worse the more I look into it. Sorry, dadandmom.Kristianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05875701885170403648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-67223315041977805662012-07-18T18:32:06.073-07:002012-07-18T18:32:06.073-07:00It is really sad that 8 years of Bush calling lawy...It is really sad that 8 years of Bush calling lawyers scum and criminals that people don't want to practice law anymore. It is ironic lawyers stole the election for him yet he set out to destroy the legal profession because he and the Republicans hate when women, children, minorities, and gays are able to get justice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-90715388289958576972012-07-18T05:57:40.502-07:002012-07-18T05:57:40.502-07:00But I never took that work home with me at the end...<b><i>But I never took that work home with me at the end of the day. Good times.</i></b><br /><br />It's like Lester comments in American Beauty - the happiest time of his life was flipping burgers. The job sucked, but he had no stress. All he did was "listen to music and get laid".BreezyWheezehttp://www.reddit.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-34731140284318071502012-07-18T05:52:12.110-07:002012-07-18T05:52:12.110-07:00what do you do if you're about to start 2L and...<b><i>what do you do if you're about to start 2L and you already dished out $50k? just walk away and wash dishes for the next few years til something else comes up?</i></b><br /><br />Yes. Yes you do exactly that.<br /><br />50K and two years of law school leading to no legal job is a damn sight better than 75k and three years of law school leading to no legal job.<br /><br />Don't fall for the sunk cost fallacy! You can't get those two years back.<br /><br />The question to ask isn't the one you asked, but rather is this:<br /><br />"Is a JD worth another year of my life, another year not working (even washing dishes), and another 30k in debt?"<br /><br />The answer is almost certainly "no".BreezyWheezehttp://www.reddit.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-38172594334049534552012-07-18T05:29:16.729-07:002012-07-18T05:29:16.729-07:00There are less expensive/better value options with...<b><i>There are less expensive/better value options with reasonable commutes in NJ (for example my commute door to door is 35 minutes) and you save by not paying NYC income tax.</i></b><br /><br />No joke. I love how people seem to have this notion that Jersey is some sort of vast unreachable hinterland filled with nothing but orange-skinned guidos. When I was commuting into the city for work, my door-to-door was about the same as yours - 40min on a bad day, 25ish on a good day.<br /><br />I had colleagues who lived in the city (typically Brooklyn) who had commutes twice mine for the privilege of paying twice the rent.BreezyWheezehttp://www.reddit.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-2111518930425578762012-07-17T22:57:30.893-07:002012-07-17T22:57:30.893-07:00Seriously, if you want to go to law school, get a ...<i>Seriously, if you want to go to law school, get a job as a paralegal for a year - it will actually improve your application because it will show you are serious, but if you have doubts it will crystalise them or get you past them.</i><br /><br />This is good advice, but a lot of LICENSED attorneys are working as paralegals right now. Crazy but true. Actually happened to me, despite the fact I graduated in the top of my TTT. I know that doesn't count for much, but I am just stating the facts. The unfriendly corporate work environment (stereotyping, pigeon-holing, favoritism, elitism) and the boring, repetitive work (doc review, legal research, more doc review, more legal research) ruined both my mental and physical health. Somehow, I managed to keep it together long enough to pay my student loans off. However, six months after they were paid off, I gave my two weeks notice and got the heck out of there because I couldn't take any more. I did what I had to do to pay my loans off, and that is the only reason I worked as a paralegal. I don't have anything against working as a paralegal, but my career goal was never to be a paralegal. Yet that is what I ended up becoming...despite having a JD. It's like going backwards.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-38774277628896244112012-07-17T20:34:18.723-07:002012-07-17T20:34:18.723-07:00@7:42 "The length of time a lawyer can reason...@7:42 "The length of time a lawyer can reasonably expect to work is an integral part of whether law school is a scam for the 55% who actually do obtain employment at 9 months. If half of those will be unemployed 18 years later, at age 45, that puts a whole different light on the scam. My impression is that the unemployment/ underemployment rate vastly increases for each law school class with each year out of law school. What good is a first job in the context of repaying six figures of debt if that job only lasts a few years? ... But employment longevity is as important as first jobs in evaluating the law school scam and whether it is worthwhile for a 0L to attend law school."<br /><br />Well said 7:42, and employment longevity is a real problem with lawyers. There are tens and hundreds of thousands of once fully employed, even prosperous lawyers, who are now either completely unemployed or far from prosperous. I know scores of them. No law job is ever secure. You are only in a law job for as long as the clients, mostly corporations, are around and able and willing to pay you. The long term stability of many law jobs has become worse with the consolidation into biglaw of many/most medium sized law firms. There are thousands of new lawyers striving to push the more experienced lawyers out. IF THE TRUTH ABOUT LONG TERM JOB PROSPECTS IN LAW WAS REALLY KNOWN AND DEMONSTRATED WITH DATA, NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD GO TO ANY LAW SCHOOL.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-35572884873900544022012-07-17T20:13:18.266-07:002012-07-17T20:13:18.266-07:00" In my parents generation, I did not know of..." In my parents generation, I did not know of any unemployed lawyers."<br /><br /><br />Remember all those guys you'd see sitting in the park all day, in suits, feeding pigeons?<br /><br />Eyup.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-52207429464834303022012-07-17T20:11:02.008-07:002012-07-17T20:11:02.008-07:007:56, when did you become deceased?7:56, when did you become deceased?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-75324257070126488482012-07-17T20:07:58.435-07:002012-07-17T20:07:58.435-07:00@7:42, "But employment longevity is as import...@7:42, "But employment longevity is as important as first jobs in evaluating the law school scam and whether it is worthwhile for a 0L to attend law school."<br /><br />Well, "no" and "yes". Taking in reverse order, the entire lifetime job prospect should be something a 0L considers in deciding whether it's worthwhile to make a leap. <br /><br /> But it [lifetime/long term employment prospect] is not, strictly speaking, part of the "law school scam".<br /><br />Law schools don't control the behaviour of law firms, e.g., firing a high percentage of associates through year seven.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-52222053626612074852012-07-17T19:56:57.780-07:002012-07-17T19:56:57.780-07:00The comment I often hear from BigLaw associates wh...The comment I often hear from BigLaw associates who are forced to leave after a few years with mountains of debt is that they did now know the high salaries would last such a short time. If only one third of the grads of the T6 schools are making the $160,000 or more after 10 or 12 years of practice, and 55% of the class is in private practice, for example, the 25th, 50th and 75th percentiles for private practice attorneys from those schools might be more like $60,000 $110,000 and $200,000 at the 12 year mark. If your compensation is likely to drop by almost a third due to your gaining more experience, that is important to know, isn't it. People who are 36 to 38 now are not quite boomers, are they? However, they are still affected by the huge suppy demand imbalance here.<br /><br />One thing that is different and has occurred over the last decade is so many unemployed lawyers. In my parents generation, I did not know of any unemployed lawyers. Lawyers made more or less money, depending on their level of success, but at least while I was alive, no attorney I had ever heard of was unemployed.<br /><br />The glut of attorneys has totally changed the unemployment situation, and it is not just newly minted attorneys.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-86553592357782134042012-07-17T19:42:13.778-07:002012-07-17T19:42:13.778-07:00Whoever thinks the longevity of legal careers is a...Whoever thinks the longevity of legal careers is a "boomer problem" is not thinking straight. If the it is likely that your career will be short- say 15 or 20 years, or less, and you have incurred hundreds of thousand dollars of debt and cannot pay that off, you have a problem. Maybe you can rely on IBR, but I am not quite sure of the rules for IBR. Lack of legal jobs, a problem that starts as early as a few months after people start working as lawyers is not limited to baby boomers. The length of time a lawyer can reasonably expect to work is an integral part of whether law school is a scam for the 55% who actually do obtain employment at 9 months. If half of those will be unemployed 18 years later, at age 45, that puts a whole different light on the scam. My impression is that the unemployment/ underemployment rate vastly increases for each law school class with each year out of law school. What good is a first job in the context of repaying six figures of debt if that job only lasts a few years? Whoever thinks the ability of lawyers to hold on to their jobs is a baby boomer problem and the subject of another jobs wants to focus only on first jobs. That is clearly most important for the 45% that is not working. But employment longevity is as important as first jobs in evaluating the law school scam and whether it is worthwhile for a 0L to attend law school.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-64786611681030889602012-07-17T19:38:44.378-07:002012-07-17T19:38:44.378-07:00There is an unjustified stigma attached to droppin...There is an unjustified stigma attached to dropping out of law school. I recall after my first year of law school, a classmate dropped out. She finished her first year in the top 5% and made law review. She was not a loser. A few years later I ran into her in court. She was a legal secretary to a state judge. I asked her why she dropped out after killing 1L and she told me that law school turned her into a miserable person. Her fiancee threatened to leave her and she alienated herself from her family and friends. As far as I could tell, she seemed happy as a law secretary (who earn about $60K a year). A part of me wishes I had dropped out as I became a miserable douche after law school.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-42524979040205970732012-07-17T18:07:46.564-07:002012-07-17T18:07:46.564-07:00@5:02
True that. My first legit W-2 job was a dis...@5:02<br />True that. My first legit W-2 job was a dishwasher, for $0.20 above minimum wage, 24 hours a week. Today, you'd probably qualify for the EIC, even if you were childless.<br /><br />But I never took that work home with me at the end of the day. Good times.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-53095214140361136452012-07-17T17:02:54.632-07:002012-07-17T17:02:54.632-07:00The good thing about dishwashing is you won't ...The good thing about dishwashing is you won't have to give any of it to the govt.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-20842010371970125502012-07-17T17:00:50.137-07:002012-07-17T17:00:50.137-07:00what about IBR? can't i just dishwash and give...what about IBR? can't i just dishwash and give 10-20% of my earnings to the gubment for 25 years?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-36071160115938528592012-07-17T16:31:54.111-07:002012-07-17T16:31:54.111-07:00Each year you close off your options. Two more yea...Each year you close off your options. Two more years the dishwashing option won't be there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-62442719224053835752012-07-17T16:29:44.081-07:002012-07-17T16:29:44.081-07:00Chill. Don't be THAT lawyer.Chill. Don't be THAT lawyer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-19065681715838556452012-07-17T16:00:54.458-07:002012-07-17T16:00:54.458-07:003:26,
How many years experience did you have befor...3:26,<br />How many years experience did you have before the SEC hired you?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-87119595877187167562012-07-17T15:48:14.568-07:002012-07-17T15:48:14.568-07:00I definitely plan on addressing the question of dr...I definitely plan on addressing the question of dropping out (or, better, taking a leave of absence), as well as providing some more information about long-term career prospects. Thanks for all the good suggestions!DJMhttp://moritzlaw.osu.edu/faculty/bios.php?ID=38noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-89245179003107831282012-07-17T15:26:41.045-07:002012-07-17T15:26:41.045-07:00At the SEC, our office has some senior attorneys a...At the SEC, our office has some senior attorneys about to retire. All are well into their sixties. I hear no one talk about early retirement from these law jobs. Once you reach the top of the SEC staff attorney pay scale, there is no incentive to leave.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-64138748856368100322012-07-17T15:09:14.765-07:002012-07-17T15:09:14.765-07:00I agree with the previous comments. DJM, as long a...I agree with the previous comments. DJM, as long as you're giving advice, a post on encouraging students to think about dropping out would be in order. <br /><br />It's time to get rid of the stigma attached to dropping out.Shark Sandwichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08866373313029422313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-59409453317970690702012-07-17T15:07:27.724-07:002012-07-17T15:07:27.724-07:00There is another impact at play here, as high-rank...There is another impact at play here, as high-ranking 1Ls at mid-ranked schools transfer to take spaces at higher-ranked schools created by quitting 2Ls. That will have a significant impact on class rank, too -- for both schools.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-44524802708330440682012-07-17T15:03:08.869-07:002012-07-17T15:03:08.869-07:00@2:48
The irony is that if rising 2Ls defect in la...@2:48<br />The irony is that if rising 2Ls defect in large enought numbers because they're not in the top quintile, the curve in second-year Con Law and Evidence is going to force the upper level 2Ls who remain down into the nether reaches. It may not effect OCI or law review, but it will effect class rank at graduation and may give BigLaw and MidLaw some pause about the formerly successful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com