tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post1113575260778732939..comments2023-10-30T08:41:06.178-07:00Comments on Inside the Law School Scam: A few more points about the Seto partnership studyLawProfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05174586969709793419noreply@blogger.comBlogger78125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-12867890891580030182012-12-20T04:46:37.076-08:002012-12-20T04:46:37.076-08:00Beyond the glaringly obvious procedural problems w...Beyond the glaringly obvious procedural problems with sample size, Seto also has ignored other pretty obvious factors. <br /><br />I went to Vanderbilt. I would be shocked if more than a dozen people in my law school class had any interest whatsoever in going to a biglaw firm in L.A. It's been a few years now, but most of my classmates at the top end of the class had their sights set on NY, DC or Chicago. A very significant portion of the class settled on other cities. Vandy sent plenty to Atlanta, Nashville and Charlotte, some to midsize cities like Birmingham or Little Rock, or other places in the South. They also sent some to Texas, or to midwestern cities like Louisville or Indianapolis. <br /><br />The folks with dreams of going back to California from Vandy (I can only think of one from my class--and he went to the Bay Area, not LA) generally came from California in the first place and thus had a local tie. <br /><br />Otherwise, most people with admissions numbers that would put them in the Vanderbilt range had not one, but two other very similarly ranked schools that WERE LOCATED IN LOS ANGELES. Obviously most folks in Vandy's target GPA/LSAT range with dreams of LA biglaw probably were smart enough to figure out that the straightest path there for them was to attend either UCLA or USC.<br /><br />So Seto is basically playing a trick. He focuses on a non-T14, but still highly ranked school with a small class, that does very weel in it's own geographic region and has an infintesimal amount of students that would even pursue LA biglaw in the first place, then compares them with his own school, where the students have something approaching zero options of Biglaw anywhere OTHER than Los Angeles (and only the lottery winners of the class have that).<br /><br />I don't know what Seto has against Vanderbilt, if he targeted them because of Law School Transparency, or, more disturbingly, if he just continued running numbers until he found some that produced a narrow outcome that he wanted. <br /><br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-37541533971208352392012-12-19T19:31:32.911-08:002012-12-19T19:31:32.911-08:00I meant the moral and ethical obligations.I meant the moral and ethical obligations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-47629497509085312512012-12-19T19:26:28.992-08:002012-12-19T19:26:28.992-08:00No, he is not a good professor. He is knowingly p...No, he is not a good professor. He is knowingly publishing misleading data. He was warned not to publish this data. He went ahead.<br /><br />No good professor would lie to students like this.<br />No decent scholar would publish such corrupt data.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-1980998768000680612012-12-19T19:24:04.701-08:002012-12-19T19:24:04.701-08:00My phone won't let me paste the link. It is i...My phone won't let me paste the link. It is in a thread called what is biglaw really like"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-31302698992512403342012-12-19T19:22:26.956-08:002012-12-19T19:22:26.956-08:00Please see my post below. Any professor who is c...Please see my post below. Any professor who is capable of such dishonesty can not be a good professor. His piece is designed to directly entice students to spend 6 figures to attend his school.<br /><br />I honestly think he must have some anti-social pathologies if he thinks publishing this paper was a good idea. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-52037970607927432432012-12-19T19:18:22.771-08:002012-12-19T19:18:22.771-08:00Law prof: please do a post considering their all a...Law prof: please do a post considering their all and ethical obligation a teacher has toward a student . I feel that no one cares about this aspect of the relationship. Students are more than just consumers buying a product. They are relying on their professors to be truthfu.<br /><br />Is everyone in law so jaded that this relationship no longer has meaning? Am I the only one who feels shocked that a professor would actively publish " research" known to him to be actually dishonest? At least the dean at Illinois who lied about statistics and falsified data had the shame to try to hide his crime. Seto is joyfully parading his lies to the world and crediting himself every time another person reads his discredited work. He truly has no shame. He deserves to be sanctioned by someone. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-83380431583157900392012-12-19T19:06:48.378-08:002012-12-19T19:06:48.378-08:00To those who claim Seto is a good professor. I ve...To those who claim Seto is a good professor. I vehemently disagree. The first thing a professor should do is not mislead the students who trust him into a worse life position. A professor has a primary moral obligation to be truthful to his students.<br /><br />Seto has blatantly betrayed that trust in the furtherance if his own monetary gain.<br /><br />If a practicing lawyer lied to clients relying on his advice to the same extent as Seto is lying to students who trust him, he would be disbarred. There is no question that a lawyer caught lying about potential outcomes that are unattainable by clients will lose their license to practice. <br /><br />I don't understand why there is no sanctioning organization that requires professors to not lie or manipulate statistics. <br /><br />What Seto has done is morally wrong, and if there was anyone in charge who cared about truth being given to students, he would be severely sanctioned.<br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-27513059461963439642012-12-19T10:45:56.281-08:002012-12-19T10:45:56.281-08:00I think Paul has created a hypothetical where the ...I think Paul has created a hypothetical where the Cal Western graduate has actually placed a bet on eventually becoming a big firm partner. They payout on the bet would be 200 to 1, while the odds would be 1 in 200.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-40686780181260047812012-12-19T09:34:03.528-08:002012-12-19T09:34:03.528-08:00$50,000 would be a good outcome for a junior level...$50,000 would be a good outcome for a junior level or starting lawyer in a small area and maybe for a new practice in a more costly area.<br /><br />In New York City, where BAs garner $45,000 to $60,000 and secretaries are hired at over $40,000, it would be an awful outcome for anyone who is neither starting out or starting a practice. <br /><br />For an experienced lawyer with several years of BigLaw and strong academics, $50,000 in the private sector would be a disaster as an ongoing salary which is capped at that level.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-69383214964019078492012-12-19T07:28:08.111-08:002012-12-19T07:28:08.111-08:00Lower your expectations. $80k for 70 hours was kn...Lower your expectations. $80k for 70 hours was known as "practicing law" for the last generation. That is a fantastic outcome these days.<br /><br />Now, try $50k for 70 hours. That's not an exaggeration. And there would be plenty of takers if it didn't cost so damn much to go to law school.<br /><br />Law schools love Big Law. It's their marketing tool. No one would go to Loyola LA if the marketing pitch was, "come here, pay $150k+ in tuition, and have a 50% chance of getting a job that pays $50k, if, and only if, you pass the bar."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-57190914915407215052012-12-19T07:20:09.044-08:002012-12-19T07:20:09.044-08:00"That is, your odds of becoming a big firm pa..."That is, your odds of becoming a big firm partner if you graduated from Cal Western from the mid-1980s through the 1990s were about 200 to 1..."<br /><br /><br />Seriously? I like those odds!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-5892131542673550432012-12-19T07:04:09.009-08:002012-12-19T07:04:09.009-08:00"Unless the residency is at the Podunckie Sch..."Unless the residency is at the Podunckie School of Medicine Hospital."<br /><br />Oh, are the hearts at Podunckie easier to perform surgery on? Maybe they have training wheels attached?<br /><br />You people are pathetic, truly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-90371100030220886972012-12-19T07:02:39.015-08:002012-12-19T07:02:39.015-08:00Yes, lawyers are known for their honesty.
lolYes, lawyers are known for their honesty.<br /><br /><br />lolAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-52865434822969520232012-12-19T07:00:24.378-08:002012-12-19T07:00:24.378-08:00As a 40-something lawyer in practice for almost 20...As a 40-something lawyer in practice for almost 20 years I can echo what BamBam said, and add that the market is so much tighter now than when I started that even being "a great entrepreneur and talented at sales and networking" is no longer a guarantee of success. Which furthers begs the question: if you possess or can develop these skills, why go to law school in the first place? Save the inflated tuition costs and lost three years and start a business in a field that is not oversaturated.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-21703368777880454362012-12-19T06:07:39.757-08:002012-12-19T06:07:39.757-08:00I disagree with the claim that you cannot win in s...I disagree with the claim that you cannot win in small practice as an introvert because there are some great areas of small, niche practice that specifically cater to introverts. I work exclusively with specialist physicians, and I can tell you that they appreciate speedy, high-quality work recommended by a colleague and are not drawn in by a schmoozy sales pitch. I have found the same to be true of programmers I've worked with--they are not impressed by a sales pitch and may even resist being wrangled. Perhaps there is a common thread running through both client bases; an introvert client will not necessarily appreciate (and may even shun) an extrovert attorney. I completely agree with the assertion that you have to be entrepreneurial to succeed in small practice on all the points mentioned above, but you can do so as an introvert if that is an advantage in your field. <br /><br />Or maybe I am just telling myself this to quell my fears that as an introvert, I will not be successful in practice in the long term... Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-50586112086678896622012-12-19T05:43:53.855-08:002012-12-19T05:43:53.855-08:00I agree an excellent teacher.
Maybe he's doin...I agree an excellent teacher.<br /><br />Maybe he's doing it for the Church? All those law schools he lists as underrated are urban Catholic law schools with many tough competitors, some with lower sticker prices.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-90791643129516299022012-12-18T23:44:23.232-08:002012-12-18T23:44:23.232-08:00Agreed. Seto is an excellent teacher. Sad to see h...Agreed. Seto is an excellent teacher. Sad to see him write an article like this. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-43606537185244227932012-12-18T22:37:49.974-08:002012-12-18T22:37:49.974-08:00I had a bad day today at work. Just a lot of hass...I had a bad day today at work. Just a lot of hassles, annoying subordinates, micromanaging board members, etc.<br /><br />Then I came onto this blog, and I feel a lot better.<br /><br />I did an MBA part time at a local state school when I was in my late 20s . I paid about about 4K for the ENTIRE program - $600-$700 or so a semester for ~6 semesters. <br /><br />My first job afterward paid 110K, which was about 30K more than I was making before I enrolled.<br /><br />I should really send them a check.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-7086619494880492392012-12-18T20:23:00.117-08:002012-12-18T20:23:00.117-08:00OK kids, here it is in a nutshell from someone who...OK kids, here it is in a nutshell from someone who has been out of law school for a few years:<br /><br />If you want to be a partner in a big firm you need to get hired as an associate. You will work 80-90 hours per week, have no life, and most likely you will get fired within a few years. If against all odds you make partner, you will still work 80-90 hours per week (like winning a food eating contest where the prize is more food) and if at any time you are not bringing in enough business you will be forced out.<br /><br />If you want to work as a government lawyer, you may be fortunate enough to get a federal job. If so you will make a decent income (high five figures or eventually just over six figures) but these jobs are very hard to get. Jobs with state or local government agencies are just as hard to get, and generally top out in the upper five figures.<br /><br />If you work in a small firm or as a solo, you will make decent money if you are a great entrepreneur and talented at sales and networking. At a small firm you will sooner or later need to develop your own practice or move on to something else. If you are an introvert or not a great salesman you will go broke as a solo.<br /><br />Sorry kids that it the way it is.BamBamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-38659158998288034712012-12-18T19:59:28.412-08:002012-12-18T19:59:28.412-08:00link?link?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-52842605315557699122012-12-18T19:27:04.006-08:002012-12-18T19:27:04.006-08:00accounting or science undergrad/grad background?
...accounting or science undergrad/grad background?<br /><br />how old is "too old?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-59848569114854578422012-12-18T18:20:14.886-08:002012-12-18T18:20:14.886-08:00The dirty little secret is that everything in priv...The dirty little secret is that everything in private practice is eat what you kill. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-84077206751695299462012-12-18T18:12:44.690-08:002012-12-18T18:12:44.690-08:00It's really sad to see Seto, who is an outstan...It's really sad to see Seto, who is an outstanding professor and highly intelligent person, demean himself in this manner. Now that you got your Chair in exchange for whoring out your name, please leave these articles to an other professor Seto. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-56684250501370858912012-12-18T18:06:37.145-08:002012-12-18T18:06:37.145-08:00Here is ALL you need to know about why Seto writes...Here is ALL you need to know about why Seto writes so many troll articles on the topic of law school job prospects.<br /><br />http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2012/12/ssrn-.html#more<br /><br />16,000 junk downloads.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5164886390834386622.post-3387603281942788362012-12-18T18:01:37.173-08:002012-12-18T18:01:37.173-08:00To be fair, he's a very good tax professor.To be fair, he's a very good tax professor. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com